Replies

1. 
   user-7565791 | Nov 17, 2021 06:10pm | #1

   So my question is

2. 
   esch5995 | Nov 17, 2021 06:48pm | #2

   It sounds like you have Rob Cosman's sharpening video.

   I would be curious why you don't like the outcome with the water stones and what you hope to achieve differently with the diamond stone/Shapton combination?

   I personally have always be taught and believed that you should progress in increments that are roughly 2x the previous grit 1000 to 2000 2000 to 4000 etc. Although I have no experience with his method I have a few concerns with it. He uses 3 different face angles and a fourth angle on the back all judged by hand. To me doing that all freehand is an invitation to roundover the edge while I can't argue that he makes it work for him I wonder how many people could achieve the same results. I sharpened freehand for years when I started and did really get sharp edges until I switched to a quality jig.

   The other concern I have is there is no way a 16000 grit stone is going to remove scratches made by a 1000 grit diamond stone and I was taught scratches are an invitation for edge chipping and break down and why I sharpen to a polished edge to prolong my edge life.

3. 
   bilyo | Nov 17, 2021 07:23pm | #3

   I don't think it matters much which equipment you use (some people use sandpaper on glass). The main thing, as esch5995 says, be consistent and be sure to remove all the scratches from the previous grit; the finer grit you end up with, the better the edge and the longer it will wear. I like to "skew" my blades slightly so that the scratches are at a slight angle to the edge and then shift the skew to the other side when I change grit. This makes it easier to tell when the deeper scratches are gone. I also like using a jig but it is certainly possible to develop the skill to do it free hand.

4. 
   StormyKnight | Nov 17, 2021 07:36pm | #4

   I use diamond stones and water stones together. Coarse water stones are much faster than diamond stones, when much material has to be removed. After getting a basic square edge, I use coarse and medium diamond stones, the main reason being that they guarantee a uniform straight edge. Water stones need to be frequently flattened, unless you want a crowned blade. I then finish with fine grit water stones and rouge on leather. I also use Veritas honing jigs. The end result is planes that whistle and chisels that are effortless.

5. 
   fivebirdscustom | Nov 18, 2021 12:45am | #5

   I do use the 300/1k Trend diamond and 16k Shapton glass stone for my sharpening. I do really like it. I get incredible results. It is the best sharpening system I have found yet for chisels and plane blades. Although, my wife likes it when I use them for the kitchen knives, too.

   I have decided I will be adding at least one intermediary stone(s)... More Shaptons, I really like the 16k glass stone! I've been debating 6k and 10k or just an 8k. Sometimes I find I am working too long on the 16k stones trying to get the 1k diamond scratches out. It takes them out, but I feel like I would like a smaller step....

6. 
   john_c2 | Nov 18, 2021 03:52am | #6

   If you aren't getting a good edge with 4000 and 8000 waterstones, switching to another type of stone isn't going to help. You need to figure out what's going on. Can you tell us what it is you aren't happy about?

   You should get a great edge off the 8000 stone. 16000 is overkill.

   Do you use the 200 grit every time? Unless the edge is badly damaged, that stone shouldn't be touching the edge. It's the equivalent of a grinder.

7. 
   DRBWWing | Nov 18, 2021 09:28am | #7

   I do have that Trend stone. I found it on a chef's supply website for like 30 bucks, that's the only reason I have it. I would say its ok but I don't use it much. I'm kind of spoiled by my 3x10 diamond plates.

   I also have that Shapton 16K, just wanted to see if it made a difference, but I don't see any.

   So I agree, you should be getting a good edge with 8000. If you're not, you should reassess your technique before spending money on another stone that isn't going to make much difference.

   What about the outcome aren't you satisfied with? It could be technique. There are a lot of nuances to sharpening.

8. 
   joeleonetti | Nov 18, 2021 01:20pm | #8

   I've been using DMT diamond stones to sharpen as Paul Sellers teaches online. I've been happy with the results but to be fair, I haven't tried any other methods. Most sharpening methods and stones work well. If you aren't happy with the results, I would think it is a matter of more practice and trying to figure out if you are having a technique issue. You have a lot of money invested in stones so I would suggest trying to learn how to sharpen on those. It took me a while to become comfortable sharpening.

1. 
   joeleonetti | Nov 03, 2022 03:31pm | #11

   A few months ago, I switched from diamond stones to the Shapton stones. I don't think diamond stones work well on A2 steel, which is what most of my tools were. It used to take 100 strokes per diamond grit and I was not up to 150 strokes per grit to raise the burr. It was still getting things sharped. I decided to switch over to the Shapton stones. First time out, I easily raised a burr in less than 50 strokes per stone; may have been 30 as my memory is fuzzy. Again, I think in my case, it all has to do with A2 steel. No more or less happy with the level of sharpness provided by the Shaptons vs. the diamonds. Happy it takes less strokes. Don't like how messy the waterstones are. Now that I own the waterstones, I will use them and sort out how to make it feel a bit less messy.

9. 
   bobr2 | Nov 18, 2021 01:24pm | #9

   You don't mention if you use a jig, but if not, you may want to consider one. It can dramatically improve results if your technique is the problem.

10. 
    tomclayton | Nov 03, 2022 02:53pm | #10

    I had the same question about going from 1000 to 16000, and I'm glad to hear others say that 8000 is sufficient. I use Norton water stones endings with 8000. I get a what I think is a good edge, but I've never been able to shave the hair off my arm! I used a General 810 sharpening jig, and I like it because the wheels run on the bench and you can use the full length of the stone for sharpening. However, it is somewhat difficult to replicate the blade angle from sharpening to sharpening, from blade to blade. I am thinking of trying the Veritas. But back to stones .... I am thinking fo getting a DMT diamond lapping plate (dia-flat 95) because I felt the Norton flattening stone wasn't getting the water stones flat anymore. Any thoughts on the Dia-flat 95, or on the Veritas jig?

11. 
    esch5995 | Nov 04, 2022 07:32am | #12

    If you aren't getting shaving sharp with an 8000 grit stone you definitely have room for improvement in your sharpening process. I can't speak to the Norton Stones having never used them, but I believe they are mid grade stones that wear moderately quickly so keeping them flat is essential. Which lapping plate to use for that again is not my area since I stopped using water stones when I moved into a shop without running water and now use a combination of diamond stones and plate glass and lapping film which never need flattened.

    When you ask about the Veritas jig you aren't very specific. Veritas now has 3 or 4 different jigs each is a little different. I have used what most people refer to as the Veritas jig, the MkII, including the narrow blade accessory for years and swear by it.

12. 
    jovogtmd | Nov 04, 2022 07:38am | #13

    Yes...and this stone is great. It comes with a lapping fluid that costs $40 for an 8 oz bottle---ridiculous for something that is little more than mineral oil. They sell a cleaning block for $10 -- which is simply a hi-polymer eraser.
    I use medicinal mineral oil from Walmart and then cut it with mineral spirits to the desired viscosity (about $.50!) and put it in a $1 squirt bottle.

    Buy a 3 pack of hi polymer steadler erasers at Staples for $4. Cheap!!

    Read about lapping fluids for diamond stones---all are either mineral oil based or mineral spirits based --these two are miscible, of course. Others use water, but if you use water you may incur rust --not the stone, but the swarf of metal filings that result from lapping --not pretty. Trend advises using. Trend does not recommend water, only their lapping fluid....go figure!!

    As for flattening my water stones--I put 220 grit sandpaper on a granite block I bought from Woodcraft --works great. The granite is rated at .001" flatness. The Norton flattening stone goes out of flat itself just too soon...don't need it anyways now I have the granite.

13. 
    rusty_tools | Nov 04, 2022 09:32am | #14

    I starter out with diamond but switched to water stones, now I use a mix. I start with a fine DMT to re-establish the bevel and then hone to a final edge with 4000, 8000 and 16000 water stones. I got the 16000 because I had to have a shoulder replacement a few years ago and it's harder to push a plain now. I'm not at all sure it makes a noticeable difference in how the plain cuts but it leaves such a fine polish it's really easy to see any scratches I didn't get out when I was going through the grades.

    The 16000 is a Shapton of course. I've used several different brands of water stones. Now I buy whatever Woodcraft or other quality provider has on sale. The grading seem to very from one brand to another and that's the main reason I finish with a few passes over the 16000.

    One note for anyone that is having problems with diamond stones. They can load up with swarf even if you do the care and feeing that DMT tells you to. After a couple of years some of mine nearly quit cutting. I called Best Sharpening Stones and they said they recommended using Krud Kutter to lubricate the plate and cleaning it with Bar Keepers Friend. It took some time but the Bar Keepers Friend finally cleaned away the imbedded swarf and they are working well again. It has an acid or something in it. It has a nasty smell for a minute when you first start cleaning them.

    Good luck, Be safe.

14. 
    whmw | Nov 04, 2022 10:11pm | #15

    What about the sharpening results are you not happy with? I use the Shapton Ceramic water stones (1000, 8000, 16000 grits) and I love them. For my smoothing planes (#3,4, 4 1/2) I also use a strop and 1 micron honing compound. I find the key with the water stones is to keep them dead flat. From my experience any time I have not been happy with a sharpening, it was because the stone wasn't dead flat. I have gotten into the habit of ensuring the stones are flat each time I use them. I use a DMT diamond stone (fine) to flatten my water stones as I have found it to be very quick and effective. I also use the diamond stone when I need to re-establish the primary bevel.

15. 
    rusty_tools | Nov 05, 2022 08:49am | #16

    I second whmw. In addition to correcting the geometry of the stone, flattening gets you down to new fresh grit and it will cut faster. If you flatten often it takes less time then if you wait until they are deeply dished. I use a diamond plate to flatten too but when I first starting using water stones I used 220 wet and dry sand paper on a granite block. If you don't have granite 1/4" glass plate on something solid will work fine, just not as fast. Don't use Harbor Freight sand paper. The grit will come off and embed in your water stones. Not good but you can usually find them and pick them out with the point of a utility knife. Don't ask me how I know that.

16. 
    tomclayton | Nov 05, 2022 10:29am | #17

    Thanks for asking about the Veritas jig, esch5995. I bought the Mk II, and I'm looking forward to learning how to use it. I also bought the Veritas side clamping guide so I can compare the two. The General 810 I have been using is a top-clamping guide (like the Mk II), and it is hard to get the blades square in it, and I thought the Mk II might have the same problem. On the DMT 95 lapping plate: DMT recommends water lubrication; see the video at https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Dia-Flat-95-Lapping-Plate-P451C183.aspx. BTW, the guys at Sharpening Supplies are very friendly and helpful. They also don't recommend Rob Cosman's "ruler trick" but prefer flattening the entire (or at least a larger portion) of the back of the blade. Thanks for the good discussion.