Has anyone ever used Diatomaceous Earth on newly stacked lumber to prevent invasion of powder post beetles??? All I’ve read indicates that it might do the trick. Applied as a powder or mixed with water at the rate of about 1 cup per gallon and sprayed on with a hand pump sprayer. Wouldn’t help if the worms were already in the wood.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
Replies
Mike, what will all that silica do to ones planer knives? I know that it is awfully fine but it is still an abrasive.
BJ
Mike
I've never used DE but I have had a couple of exterminators explain how it worked for them. They mixed some insecticide with it and the DE scratched the insects shell and let the poison enter. I don't believe it will work by itself.
les
Mike, I've been wracking my brain trying to remember a product I read about awhile back. Never did remember, but in doing a Google search, I ran across a site called....powderpostbettles.com!!! Do you believe it?
At any rate, they describe a product called Boracare and states:
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Mike,
What about the poor soul that is planing that treated lumber: his/her lungs, nasal passages and throat would get cut up?? Please folks follow the label direction and if it ain't labeled for something, Don't use it! With all due respect Mike, I believe in using "chemicals" responsibly.
Dale Lenz
Killing bugs is one of the labeled uses of diatomaceous earth.
My understanding is that DE is only effective against adult insects. I would worry about eggs or grubs already on the wood. The DE would only kill them after they had eaten their fill and emerged to look for someplace to lay their eggs. Better late than never, but still.
If you had bugs on your food ........you would not spray the food with Raid.... Please folks let use some common sense here.
Have a good day,
Dale
Is DE toxic? I thought it was just the skeletal remains of microscopic marine organisms. Someone mentioned what all that silica would do the tooling. I don't think there's any silica in it. Is it really all that abrasive?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Probably the most effective naturally occurring protective powder is diatomaceous earth. This is a geological deposit made up of the fossilized skeletons and tests of siliceous marine and fresh water organisms, particularly diatoms and other algae. These skeletons are made of hydrated amorphous silica or opal. When crushed, they break up into tiny pieces of glass'' (so tiny that the material feels like talcum powder).
...
Because DE is made of silica, people sometimes mistakenly think that DE causes silicosis. As indicated above, however, pesticide quality DE is usually over 97 per cent amorphous silica, which does not cause silicosis, which is associated only with crystalline silica. Indeed, inhalation of road dust and grain dust IS likely to be more harmful than DE.
http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/Publications/eap4.htm
Thanks for the information, I stand corrected. Thanks again for pointing this out. Let us know how this works, Mike....as if I won't know, : ' > BTW, Mike if you are going to be removing the sapwood from the walnut I don't think you have anything to worry about in the first place.....Dale
Unc,
You sound well informed on DE. I'm not. I do however use DE filter media in my swimming pool system, and on the bag the labeling basically says: "Don't breath this stuff. It causes silicosis". Is this different from the DE you speak of?
jdg
All the references that I've seen to using DE against insects emphasize that the pool filter DE won't work, so there is clearly some difference. I thought I saw in one of these messages that the label on the insecticidal DE also cautions against breathing it, but I couldn't find it when I went back to look. Maybe it was in another thread.
Nobody should be casual about breathing any kind of fine dust. It's not good for you. BUT, as with all other potentially injurious substances, the dose makes the poison. Arsenic is poisonous, but we all have it in our bodies, and there is some evidence that it is a micronutrient; if we didn't get some arsenic, we'd get sick.
I'm NOT claiming that airborne silica dust is a micronutrient. :) I am saying that if you're smart, you're going to be wearing dust protection when you do power woodworking anyway, and that the incremental risk of breathing DE dust is pretty small and has to be balanced against the benefits of protection against wood eating bugs.
I don't know if spraying DE on lumber is effective against PPB's or any other kind of wood borers. Wood eaters don't seem to be a problem in my climate, so I've never needed to find out. I do know that if DE does work, I can take steps to reduce the risks of using it to a level that I'm comfortable with. Other people will see the risks and the effectiveness of the precautions differently.
Well, DE can be fed to animals. It is not toxic. Lot of livestock owners use it as a feed supplement to help rid cattle/hogs/etc. of internal parasites. It has also been added to food for humans to get rid of tape worms and such. All flour that you purchase at the grocery store has DE in it. It is a common treatment for seed grains - wheat, corn, maize, etc. It is added as the grain is augured into the storage bins. It prevents infestation of weevils, beetles, and other like critters.
Also, putting a 2" layer of DE under a slab is guaranteed to prevent sub-terrainion termites forever.
But, it should not be inhaled in "large quantities" as it can cause silicosis. (they didn't define large quantities).
I did find some web sites that mentioned it's use in the lumber industry to prevent borer infestation. But, that is about all they said as they were just interested in the food industry.
In a spray, one cup would treat about 100 bf of lumber. It costs around $30, for 50 lbs. Or, enough to treat 10,000 bf.
I'm aware of other products used for borer infestation. Just looking here for anyone with experience or comments pertaining to DE.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
DE is in my 5-pound bag of flour? Wow... that's a bit freaky. (Should I be freaked?)
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
>> Should I be freaked?
Hard to say. Life expectancy has increased pretty much in lockstep with the consumption of factory baked white bread over the last hundred years. Maybe the amount of DE in flour is good for you.
Uncle Dunc, thanks for today's hearty laugh of the day! :-) I needed it!
David (making a beeline for the Wonder Bread aisle)"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
"Life expectancy has increased pretty much in lockstep with the consumption of factory baked white bread over the last hundred years."
Is that what u call a 'spuroius correlation'???
Anyway, from what I've read on the web, DE might prevent the PP beetle's from laying their eggs on wood thusly treated.
So, if you cut, stack, and sticker lumber in the winter, then treat it with DE, it should prevent the laying of the eggs later in the spring. What to do when the larve are already in the wood is an entirely different matter!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
>> Is that what u call a 'spurious correlation'?
Probably. That's what makes it so fun when I use that line against the culinary puritans who whine about all the nutrients being discarded from white flour.
I agree with you on treating newly cut lumber. DE should be quite effective against new infestation.
As I posted in another thread about PPB infestations: Responsible use of Orthochlor brand chlordane in accordance with the label, then follow-up by avoiding the dust when processing the wood, will get these pests coming and going, i.e., once and for all. It works especially well in ridding structures deemed worth saving of this destructive pest. My Grandfather's barn in South Carolina was framed, sided, and partially floored with the most common local wood, both sap and heartwood in the late 1800's. A major PPB infestation was terminated in the 60's by one treatment. It was sold and dismantled in the 1990's for the untouched beautiful WALNUT heartwood in the beams and walls. The wood was hosed down with water before processing. They reported that no live insects were found, and that only an occasional track was found into the heartwood (PPB's and big borers dislike walnut heartwood) In the short term home shop, I wear a respirator when planing and sawing, but once the surface wood bearing the residual dust is gone, so is the danger and odor.
Naturally some will object to use of chemicals .... to each his own. If I could afford it, I would invest in a large commercial microwave. I saw one in an east Texas veneer plant back in the 80's that was 12 ft x 12 ft. x 6 ft inside ..... must have had a 2' deep pile of dead borers (each as large as your index finger!) along the back wall. Ah, but I digress. Good luck with whatever treatment you choose.
John in middle Tennessee
John,
Orthochlor under another label was used for PPB control. The other label is/was Dursband; Dursband has been banned also. For the record Orthochlor is malathion (sp) not chlordane. Maybe Orthochlor was a marketing thing by Ortho?? I personally wished chlordane was available for licensed folks as it was a great termiticide. But, once again it was banned off the shelf in mid 1980's. I have some chlordane myself, and it is legal for me to use up what I have for personal use.
It is quite common to find the larger bark borers under the bark of logs and lumber. I would think veneer logs would have the bark left on them to keep the wood from drying out.
I do agree with you that chemicals use should be used intelligently and responsibly.
Dale
Hey Dale -
Coming up there next Thursday. Meeting with Rick the following Sat. to walk out the place. He won't commit yet on when he can do the sawing. Renters are out, so I'll be batchin' there after the 1st night or so. Still want to see a #1??
Hey, how about using those plug in sonic thangs! Their supposed to scare all kind of critters away. Mice, rats, #### roaches, fleas. Might even work for PPB's!!!!!! Maybe I could set up a big loud speaker system playing rap music continuously!!!!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Hey Mike,
Sure bring the #1 up. Seen a L/N #1 on ebay, they had it listed under a Stanley look a like, thought it might sell cheap. Shoot, went for $225, can get it from L/N for $195...Folks don't know??
Let me know about the ultra high frequence bug chasers, I'll bring my ear plugs if you are going to play rap!, Rap would for sure chase me away!
Give me a call when you get here and maybe we can do some shop time, the coffee pot is always on! Hope my sinus are dried up by then. Ain't been to the shop in three days now. Guess I need to go pay the Man some money to see if he can fix me up!....Dale
Hey Dale -
Got about 300 stickers. Need about 600 more! These were old cedar fence pickets resawn to 1" wide.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
A while ago I asked what made the Stradivari, Amati, & Del Gesu violins special. The discussion included use of borax as preservative: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=8946.13
Janet
DE used in swimming pools filters is NOT the same stuff. It has no effect on bugs and one has to be very careful handling it as it can cause respiratory problems.
Agricultural grade or pest grade DE is inert in the digestive system of animals and passes through with no effect.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
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