Is there some reasonably simple way to identify the difference between hard maple and soft maple? I have paid for hard maple and I want be sure that’s what I have received. I appreciate any help that anyone might have.
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Replies
Try to make a dent with your thumbnail. Shouldn't be possible -- at least that's been my experience.
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
dry you can't dent it with the thumb nail test, green it is impossible.
I seem to agree with your logic. That's been what I have used in the past. However, I can leave a slight fingernail impression. I'm afraid this "test" won't hold water with my supplier. I was looking for something that would provide a stronger validation of soft maple over hard. Thanks. Anyone else?
Bruce Hoadley's book Understanding Wood has enough information to identify hard maple with a 10x hand lens and a razor sharp chisel. If you need to know a specific maple species, you probably need this book anyway.
Even the Forest Products Laboratory has difficulty separating species within the maple genus...But here are some tips that will improve your batting average (at least among our domestic maples.):
DENSITY: Only three of our maples have average specific gravities in excess of 0.44. Sugar maple =0.56, black maple = 0.52 and red maple = 0.49. So, density is usually the best quick clue in narrowing the field down to just these three. The trade categorizes only sugar maple and black maple as "hard" maples, but functionally red maple probably belongs in that category more than it belongs with the soft maples.
RAYS: Although this is a much more iffy clue, the rays in sugar maple (as seen with 10X magnification on the end grain) are of two very distinct widths. The widest of them will be wider than the diameter of the largest pores. (this clue also helps to separate maple from birch, incidentally.) The differentiation between ray width is usually a little less pronounced in the softer of the soft maples.
COLOR: If you feel confident (on the basis of density) that the maple you are dealing with is one of the heavier three species (sugar, black or red) differences in color and/or luster function as reasonably good clues. The heartwood of red maple usually has a gray cast, while the other two display a more amber hue...and sugar maple typically has a slightly higher surface luster than does black maple.
CHEMISTRY: sugar maple and red maple react differently when exposed to a solution of ferrous sulfate. Placing a drop of this solution on sugar maple causes the wood to turn grayish green, while red maple will turn bluish black.
Edited 1/3/2004 4:39:04 PM ET by Jon Arno
Jon: Does the ferrous sulfate test work to distinquish between sugar and silver maple? (I purchased a sawed green log which my supplier thought was sugar maple, and when green it appeared heavy enough, and the wood looked like sugar maple, but when dry was about 25% lighter than sugar maple, so I'm pretty sure it's sugar maple because I don't think we have much red maple in the midwest.)
Chairwright, to tell you the true, I don't know if the test works in separating sugar maple from silver maple. I've never had to resort to it in separating these two species. The density differential is so great, you shouldn't have to delve into chemistry. Sugar maple has an average specific gravity of 0.56, vs silver maple's 0.44...it's kind of a "feather-rock" comparison.
There are also anatomical differences that help separate these maples. Under 10X magnification, you'll notice that sugar maple has rays that are of two very different widths, while the rays in silver maple tend to be more uniform in width. Also, sugar maple typically has a more amber general color and a slightly higher surface luster than does silver maple.
Jon: I agreed with the feather - rock test right up to the time it failed me - or I failed it. Green cut, 9/4 X 10' long soft maple weighs like a rock too, especially when there's not an equivalent "hard" to compare against. I'll get a 10 power and try that test. I'm also going to try the ferrous sulfate on some wood I "know" is soft and hard and see what, if anything, it reveals. It might be helpful for some of us who seem to struggle "wit dees dengs".
O D
Hard to add to Mr. Arno's post, but just as a side thought I would make sure I dealt with a reputable supplier. I deal with a company here in the Atlanta Metro area that has been at it since 1965. They would rather sacrifice a family member than decieve or cheat a customer. Perhaps that's why they have been round since 1965. ha.. ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Geezus, Sarge...You've got to knock off this "Mr. Arno" business. Every time I see it I get a flash...sort of a "Liberal" sensation that the impossible is actually real and that my dad 's still around. I answer best to Jon...or "hey, Arno". :O)
Jon
Growing up in the south I was taught to say Mr., Mrs. or Ms. in respect of elders. If you didn't you were taken behind the wood shed and you know what happened there. It was expected when addressing anyone your senoir and wiser than you.
The courtesy that was extented in those days has been modified in usage somewhat in our new world. You might notice that I only refer to Mr. Arno when addressing you in a thread concerning wood idenification or related wood product characteristics. Simply out of respect for your knowledge in that arena. The way I use it does not relate to your physical years, but my respect for your superior knowledge of a particular subject.
At any point when the addressee ask the addresser to call them by the first given name as I do in other threads, that courtesy can be dropped. An example is I have a close friend that out of respect I call Dr. Tanner. When that person ask me to drop the Doctor as we have known each other since child-hood, she simply is Susan as she always was before she specialized.
So, at your personal request you will be referred to as Jon in all future related wood matter threads. But with the under-standing that the respect that I have for your knowledge of wood matters is still on-going. ha.. ha..
Regards, Jon... :>)
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge, this drifts far from the topic...but as a lover of trivia, I've often wondered about the origins of Southern formality. Just a guess, but I suspect it betrays some Germanic influence as the Pennsylvania "Dutch" migrated into the hills and then southward along the Appalachians.
The Germans (at least in my grandfather's time) were mighty particular about titles...and even their pronouns; du and Sie. The familiar "du" (you) was used in conversation with children or only among the closest of friends, while "Sie" was more formal and, in a way, both respectful and standoffish. It took some doing for someone younger to earn a "Sie" from those crusty old Krauts. I think I earned my first one as a compliment for having graduated from the University of Michigan...but truthfully he was fluent in English and we really only joked in German. I would give anything just to hear his voice again, even in the familiar dutsen (sp?).
Anyway, Sarge, having seen photos of your work benches, I don't think you owe me any special respect when it comes to woodworking matters...Although I am puzzled why you keep making benches, instead of making something ON them? :O)
>> ... "du" (you) was used in conversation with children or only among the closest of friends ...
And in prayer, presumably on the grounds that God is your very closest friend, and to persons of very low status, such as prisoners (and, I suspect, to servants, but I don't know that for sure).
I'm curious where I could find a 10X magnifier. It seems to be the handiest thing available for looking at grain. I've got some small chunks of unidentifiable wood that came in a grab bag from Woodcraft, and would like to figure them out. If anyone knows where I could find a magnifier, it would be appreciated. Thanks.
Doc-- try Edmund Scientific in southern N.J. I don't have a web address for them handy, but they carry all kinds of magnifiers and other neet stuff.
Stamp and coin shops. Hobby shops. MSC. McMaster-Carr. Hardware stores (Your local Ace Hardware might not have them, but I'll bet money McGuckin Hardware in Boulder, CO does). College bookstores. Rock shops. Microscope and telescope stores. Edmund Scientific. Maybe camera stores or jewelry stores.
You in Boulder, Uncle Dunc?
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
>> You in Boulder, Uncle Dunc?
Yes, and this morning I got one of my favorite reminders of why I live here. My living room window faces Bear Peak, the skies were clear this morning after yesterday's snow, and the Flatirons are gorgeous, like powdered sugar frosting.
Well, shucks. I'm out in Heatherwood, and I know exactly what you mean. I got up at 7 am today and drove to Avista ER to do an emergency psychiatric evaluation; the entire Front Range is beautifully dusted (and I might say, it's about time. I look forward to having water next summer.)
I'd love to hook up and see your shop and work sometime, if you're interested. Lemmee know.
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I hope you won't think I'm being churlish, but there's nothing to see. My bench is a chunk of Parallam beam I pulled out of a dumpster at a construction site, resting on two sawhorses. It's in the garage and I can't even get to it anymore. I have a router, a skilsaw, a couple handsaws, a small block plane, and some chisels.
My work consists almost entirely of some hardwood scraps that I've practiced planing, chiseling, edge gluing, sanding, and oil finishing on. My one real fine woodworking project, that I started for my brother's wedding present 5 or 6 years ago, is a little flat presentation box for a pair of machinist's spring dividers. I got it about 80% done and then ran out of gas.
90% of what I know about woodworking I read in FWW, 8% in Understanding Wood, and about 2% comes from actual experience.
Well, Uncle, I've got a shop, amatuer though it may be, and I'd love to share. If you want to get together and make some sawdust, I'm game.
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
<<I got up at 7 am today and drove to Avista ER to do an emergency psychiatric evaluation;>>
How's the patient doing? Or would that violate HIPAA guidelines?
No name involved; can't see any violation. Self-inflicted wrist lacs; also a mixture of alcohol and drug abuse over several years, seems to be self-medicating to cope with some deeper pain. Lacs were minor, seemed very insightful for a person with a personality disorder, so maybe that wasn't it. Anyway, she was d/c'd with a referral, with which she seemed happy. You in a similar business?
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I generally shy away from specific personal questions on the Wild Wild Web as I revere my anonymity. I understand your plight, however, better than most.
here's one source that I deal with - - lots of places sell them -
http://www.greatlakesipm.com/magnifiers.html
Doc, you have a lot of options. For one, jeweler's loops work well in wood ID and you can get them with a flip-out lens at either end; usually 10X and 20X. 10x can be a little too weak when dealing with extremely fine textured, diffuse-porous woods, so It's nice to have some choice in the magnification.
I recently bought some flip-out, double lens magnifiers from Harbor Freight for only a buck or two each that work really well. They were advertising them to the gardening crowd for use in bug identification. They allow you to gang the two lenses when greater magnification is necessary. The tradeoff is that the weaker lens offers better field-of-view, which is important in getting a sense of anatomical structure (the overall "signature" of the species), but you often need the higher magnification to pick up the cellular detail.
If Harbor Freight still stocks these cheapies, I think it's probably the best deal you'll find.
Thank you for the reply. As I said, I would like to get better at identifying different species. Some are obvious, but others I find very difficult. I first need to buy a good book, and then the magnifier. Thanks for the tip on Harbor Freight. We have a Harbor Freight store in town, so I'll check on it next week. One other quick question. I got two different types of wood in a grab bag, and I'm not sure what they are. I believe one of them is yellowheart. One is more yellow, the other is more creamy. The creamy one is very hard and feels like plastic blocks. The yellow one is very light and feels more like styrofoam. Of course this is a silly question to ask you over the net, but would either of those sound like Yellowheart? I'm guessing that the yellower one is likely Yellowheart, but thought I would as since I'm already typing away. Thanks again.
Doc, you're right, I can't help much based on your description. But even if you were to post a picture, it probably wouldn't help. There was a recent thread here on Knots regarding yellowheart and we didn't make much progress. Yellowheart is a common name used for several unrelated woods. I'd have to see a sample to even offer you a respectable guess.
Dunc! your familiarity with "du" surprises me. I thought your handle; Dunc, was a contraction of Duncan...and you were just some sort of Gaelic (Celtic) retread. Am I now to assume (in keeping with your demonstrated spelling skills) this handle really stems from "dunk" and you're actually one of those radical Germanic southern Baptists?
...Just kidding, Dunc. As you've probably gathered, I don't put much store in the importance of ethnic background among Americans and am a strong proponent of classless society. We're all equally evil and unworthy. Fact is, I never had much opportunity to develop any serious prejudices...being as it's doubtful there's a race out there that doesn't probably figure somewhere in my genes. Guess there's much to be said for being an American mongrel.
>> I thought your handle; Dunc, was a contraction of Duncan...and you were just some sort of
>> Gaelic (Celtic) retread.
It is, and I am. The handle is borrowed from Duncan Preston McCauley, a great-great-uncle I never met. I heard stories about him when I was a kid, and liked the rhythm and rhyme of the name.
>> ... your familiarity with "du" surprises me.
Na ja. Just showing off 3 1/2 years of high school German.
McCauley, you say?...Remind me to never go out drinking with you, Dunc. :O)
Thanks to you Mr. Jon Arno, Sarge, Doc, Uncle Dunc, and the many contributors to this thread. It helped me in further understanding projects I'm working on. Danke!
Jon
The requisitions forms have been recieved form the "first lady" for the year and looks like the firing order is croquet cabinet, breakfast nook table and a new bed which might lead to a new bed-room suite if I know her as well as I think I do. And I think I do.
Try to get some pictures as they come off the new bench. Just keep in mind I'm a hobbyiest and I don't get in a hurry for anyone, including the "first lady". When they arrive, they arrive. ha.. ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge, if I were you, I'd start off with the bed. Being able to take orders is important, but you don't want to totally lose sight of your own self interest. :O)
Jon
And I agree that you have made a valid point. Now you're showing even though we are reaching chronological prefection, the mind is still where it was when we were 21. And as far as I'm concerned, it could be in a much more hostile enviroment. ha.. ha..
:>)
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jon, I grew up with the Pa Dutch as well (Kriebel) and it actually is not as common as you might think regarding the migration to the South..If you have a Dialect like Deutsch you really get some odd looks..When I lost the "accent' I was still in Pa., then moved to NC Mountains and a friend overheard a phone call where I was jawwin with old buddy..we would use some dutch in slang ...Say, now. and Now vunsdt , coulda heard a pin drop.!
Dear Mr. Arno,
Just by way of completely hijacking this post, I'd like to share with you my take on southern formality. First, I'll draw a distinction between good manners, and standoffishness. I grew up in the northern Shenandoah Valley, in an English-Scots/Irish community. Then moved further south, to a largely German-settled area. Not till I moved was I treated to things like being waved at by strangers in passing vehicles, or strangers giving up their place in the grocery check-out line to me, because I just had a few items and they had a cart full. In my part of the world, the Scots Irish take the clannish award over the Germans, even though I was once referred to as an "auslander" in a local harness shop (how was he to know I had a little Deutch in school?)
Like Sarge, I was taught to "Sir and Ma'am" my elders, and those in positions of authority. This I learned at my Momma's knee. I don't know if this is more true in the South than elsewhere, but it is part of my, and many of my contemporaries' background. One of my favorite stories my oldest son brought back from Parris Island was when his drill instructor told his recruits to "follow Pine's example, because at least he's had some upbringing!"
In our Boy Scout troop, adult leaders are Mr'ed and Miz'ed as a matter of course, so some semblance of the old tradition still exists.
I remember reading somewhere that the origin of Southern manners lies in the fact that it's just easier to be polite when it's too da*n HOT to take the effort to be rude. Just set here a spell, Mr. Arno, while I fix y'all a nice mint julep, y'heah?
Cheers'
Ray
>>"Just set here a spell, Mr. Arno, while I fix y'all a nice mint julep, y'heah?"<<
Make it a double, Ray...And is that a plug of mule I see in your shirt pocket? :O)
"is that a plug of mule I see in your shirt pocket? :O)"
Not hardly, Jon, the sickest I EVER got was about 35 yrs ago when a high school hunting buddy offered me a "chaw" of that stuff! I ended up flat on my back, holding onto the ground with both hands to keep from flying off, things were spinning so. I swear I heard angels singing, but I knew I'd have to get better, before I could DIE!
However, I do have a pretty good recipe for a julep, treated myself to one this eve, as a matter of fact. It's been a wet spring, here in the valley, and the mint is taking over the herb garden.
Regards,
Ray
Dear Sarge:
When I moved to Alabama in '88, I was struck by the the degree of formality in general conversation. To use the language, "yes ma'am, or no ma'am, or yes sir, or no sir" where I grew up in PA was uncommon, unless I was referring to a superior. In the North, I think respect is viewed as being earned, but here in the South it seems that it is part of having "good manners". I have come to feel very comfortable with the latter. I know that my kids will get into trouble if they do not abide by this style of gentility in school.
Sincerely,
Rob
Rob
I think you see less of manners down south than you would have 20 years ago. At least in the Atlanta area. I grew up in what was then a rural county 30 miles from downtown. When I graduated HS in 1965, there were 38,000 in the entire county. We just went over 600,000 and as you might guess, the largest percentage aren't natives of the area.
The out-lying areas probably still have maintained the customs and manners to a larger degree. I just think it too crowded fro my taste. In the near future when I retire completely, I'm looking for an area a little less populated with a lot of politeness and neighborly-ness. And I don't care where they came from originally. ha.. ha..
My wife is from western Pa. near the Altoona-Johnstown area. What section of Pa. do you hail from and what section of Bama do you currently reside?
EDIT: I just read your post to CharlieD. Disregard the last paragraph if you are not comfortable with a reply. I was just curious and it is irrelevant.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 1/5/2004 10:38:46 PM ET by SARGE
I was born in Philadelphia(PA) and when I was 6 years old my family moved to Lancaster, PA where I grew up in a relatively rural environment with farms all around. That same area is now sprawling with many housing developments and its bucolic charm is all but gone. My wife grew up in NYC and together we decided to live in AL in a city which is a compromise between both of these demographic extremes.
Rob
Finally after all these years the mystery has been explained. I have always been tortured with the agony of not knowing how that little "Philly Cheese-Steak" stand got over on the side of that major highway there in Bama. Knew it had to have evolved from elsewhere as it is not a native to the region.
And now I know! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a great day, Rob...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge...! Don't buy it!!! The ONLY real Philly Steak is from Pat's on South St. IN PHILLY....anything else is hogwash. I am originally from that area and we take our steak wars real serious! Maybe I'll call and have one overnited to ya!
SPHERE
I do like my Philly Cheese-Steak. Used to catch one coming through Philly every week-end on my way to Atlantic City (another story) back in the mid 80's. Good stuff and ain't the same at Sub-Way and Philly Connection. They're just pretenders.
Rob is from Philly, so I assume he would use the "secret" Philly ingredients prepared in a proper manner. ha.. ha...
And yeah, I'll keep my eyes peeled for the "Brown" truck.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge, I used to live about 3 hrs. north of you..in Franlikn/sylva NC..just up 441..When I first got there they did not have Ben an Jerry's Ice cream..My wife ordered a CASE of it..when I was coming in the driveway my neighbor ( who never got out much, if ya catch my drift) Said.." Duane, some kinda goverment truck was up at YOUR house today..What ya think they was doin there?" I said what kind of truck..He says " a BiG BOXY kinda thang..It said FEderal somthin on the side, an the guy had him on a uniform" (This man was SCARED..Wide eyed)..went up to the house and the wife said..Federal express..brought the Ben and Jerry's YUMM..lol..
SPHERE
Nice area actually. A bit closer to those mountains is my ideal though. Hope to live up in Western N.C., Eastern Tn. or Southern Va. one of these days down the road.
Enjoy the Ben and Jerry's... ha.. ha...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Real crowded in summer!!! Tourists, summer folks from Fla., and Wheel estates rolling at 30mph. Had to leave for my summer sanity..as much traffic as 'spaghetti junction' in Atlanta. Kentucky is real serene. Just north of Berea..getting bigger tho' urbansprawl is rampant. The house I bought has been there for 150+ years, old log home..so I don't consider myself another person buying into a sub-division, more like a continueing steward for this existing home...
Happy sawdust stirrings..
SPHERE
Thanks for the tip. A lot of that area that used to be remote has been discovered by the snow-birds. Getting hard to find the remote anymore. Way of the world, I suppose.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
if you do not trust your supplyer, then why do you buy from them?
David
http://www.darbynwoods.com
First, let me say to everyone, thank you for your replies.
Second, Mr. darbywoods, I never said that I distrusted my supplier, I simply wished to determine a method to confirm that I was getting something that I couldn't immediately confirm upon looks alone. Mistakes happen. Even with trusted suppliers. It's great to assume that you have received exactly what you have paid for, but we all know what happens when we assume.
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