I have been doing a lot of research into tools lately- sending away for catalogs and calling 800 numbers and so forth. Just passing on the reality I have learned that there are beaucoup tool manufacturers out there with brand lines that kind of make the debates about Delta, Griz, PM, Craftsman, and others moot in some ways. Many of the tool companies I have discovered sell cool ‘specialty’ tools (Legacy) or more often ‘industrial’ grade stuff (Sunhill, Wilke, Bridgewood, Mikron). But even so, many lesser known companies have products suitable for the smaller shop.
The point I am trying to make here is that perhaps the usual and more advertised brands may not be the best buys all in all. Many of the lesser known companies I researched carry excellent looking tools at decent prices. And while I doubt if I will buy a Sunhill $43,500 shaper soon, for example, they do sell smaller tools for decent costs.
My next bit of market research will be into European tool manufacturers. Euro stuff is the way to go I think. Although I wish I could find a local source for Oliver. sigh
sawick
Replies
You should expand your research to the other end of the spectrum - level of satisfaction of those who have bought the machines. You are seeing the "best side" of the tool industry - sales hype developed to move product. Remember the old adage - a good salesman sells everything including things you don't make!
Weekend warriors are not always the best measure of tool performance. For portable tools, I visit/call tool rental centers - preferably contractor rental centers. And be careful of regional bias - I would not even consider a rental center anywhere near Towson, Maryland (Black & Decker world headquarters with their DeWalt branding).
Stationary tools are another matter. There will always be personal preferences so you have to go with several sources. I usually visit small to medium size production shops - most cities/towns have folks doing cabinets/casegoods and you can find the usual table saws, jointers, etc. If you are lucky to have a major furniture manufacturer near you, then all the better - many of these folks run 2 and 3 shifts for certain production runs.
You want to determine what is the most reliable tool for a particular use - no one will deny the Porter-Cable 503/504 worm/chain drive belt sander is king - they just don't want to spend the $400+ for it! No manufacturer has such a solid tool line that you would buy everything from them - I prefer Delta for many of their tools but I have no compunction if I find a better machine out there - and the replacement parts are readily available. A good example is the Ridgid line carried by Home Depot - all the HD's in my area carry the lather but no accessories and no turning tools - we're talking a half dozen HD's in a majo metro area. Sear has the same problem - no lathe accessories so you pay a premium to have it mail ordered. Why would anyone do that?
And don't forget, the smaller companies can come and go - look at Boice Crane, Parks, etc. Sometimes they are absorbed - Stanley electric tools was acquired by Bosch over 20 years ago - they only maintained parts for 5 years. If you own a Stanley power tool - a name looked upon with some reverence - you're stuck!
And the classic example is DeWalt - they never made portable tools yet today most people wouldn't know that. And will they be around in another 10 years - the Black & Decker history of tool management says no (DeWalt, Master Power, Black & Decker Industrial all gone - good luck on parts!).
Power tools are a major purchase for most folks - a good starting place is the sales literature but remember it is only a small part of the whole picture.
Edgregg,
You make a good point about expanding the research spectrum by asking tool satisfaction by guys who use such machines. You also give good advice about visiting tool rental businesses or furniture factories. But I bet same are just like most of us- they try to buy within budgets and many tool manufacturers give out pretty good sale,lease and/or rental rates to large businesses. Remember also that such businesses depreciate tools in 7 years so maybe owners don't necessarily look for highest quality or precision.
You mentioned Rigid at HD. I found the Rigid tools at HD to be best served as boat anchors. Dewalt has or soon will close their US plant and soon will be making that line in Mexico according to Fine Homebuilding.
But there are still some relatively small US and Canadian companies that seem to make decent tools. These manufacturers have small ads on the back pages of WW mags typically, and such are the sources of recent research.
Finally (with some introspection) I think I am just sort of stream of conscience championing for the underdogs. Large tool companies seem to get most stuff made overseas while maybe the smaller outfits still try to employ local, buy local and sell local. Since most woodworkers fall into similar market niches, I guess it just feels, on an ethical level, that we should do the same. just my 2 cents
sawick
Sawick:
You said you are in Montana - where? I'm flying from the east coast on Thursday to Bozeman to visit my daughter!
Also, if you are in search of those great yet small tool manufactureres, check out Sioux power tools - mostly air machines but their close quarter drill/screw runners are superb!
EDGREGG,
Welcome to Montana- "the last best place". I hope your flight and visit go well. I live in Butte, which is just over the hill (the continental divide) about one hour west of Bozeman. I agree with you about the Sioux air tools. More than once I have drooled over their small angled head drill. That tool would be excellent for power sanding on the lathe along with screw/drill work in tight spaces.
sawick
Sawick:
Bought the Milwaukee version of the Sioux drill (I think Sioux makes it for Milwaukee) a few years ago - along with the Porter-Cable 310 router, my favorite portable power tools. I teach high school woodworking and I bought a Milwaukee close quarter for the students - they can put their hands around the machine with a great comfort level.
Leave for Montana early Thursday - look for to visiting. Fantastic hardware store in Bozeman - Owenhouse - lots of product from Porter-Cable & Delta to hand tools and finishing supplies. We talked about visiting the mining museum in Butte but I think we're just going to hang out in the valley and surrounding mountains around Bozeman.
Ed Gregg
EDGREGG,
While in Bozeman try to get to Four Corners Hardware, Kenyon Noble Lumber, and Home Depot. And if possible take a short scenic drive west to the small town of Willow Creek to check out Willow Creek Tool. This store is a woodworkers dream uniquely sited in basically the middle of nowhere. Montana has no sales tax so tools can be obtained without that extra $ burden. However, my shopping revealed a fairly vast difference in prices store to store. You may also try to visit McPhie Cabinetry (on main st. east downtown), and other woodworkers around Bozeman. There are many very high quality craftspeople in Gallatin County supported because of the recent influx of incredibly wealthy folks from out of state. Lots of cool antique stores and many high end shops as well. If you are staying in a motel, it should have a real estate dedicated magazine with glossy pictures of some of the incredible homes and incredible woodwork being installed. These homes are mostly up near Big Sky ski area.
Eat lunch with your daughter at the Garage which is conveniently across the street from Spanish Peaks Brewery (microbrew and good beer!). Hope you enjoy our state. However, for an extreme contrast compared to trendy Bozeman, a visit to Butte may seem like a drive into the past. Butte architecture is 1890's vintage and horribly decrepit.
sawick
Edited 4/10/2003 12:53:54 AM ET by sawick
This is our fourth visit to Bozeman so some of the places you mentioned, I've visited. Will call Willow Creek and get their hours - we're here only till Monday - too shaort a visit!
Do you ski at Big Sky?
Mark,
Haven't skiied the sky since 1977. Prices are just too high for most locals anymore (Montana is rated 47th lowest per capita income among the states). However, us local ski fanatics know of many smaller and cheaper ski areas around the state. Further, most locals have taken up off piste and randonee' skiing in the back country of our many mountain ranges. This is partly due to exorbitant costs of lift tickets and generally to avoid the crowds of out of staters on the resort type ski areas such as Big Sky.
sawick
I love the off-piste stuff myself. But I'm not real fond of the hiking that is usually part of the deal.
Your right, if you take a look at what the big shops use you can get a good idea as to what quality tools are. There is a whole other world of machines out there that most hobbiests never see. I'm a bit of a metalhead as well, so I have an idea of what goes into building a quality machine. The euro stuff is nice, however, I don't like the fact that everything is built in metric. You have to buy custom blades, and replacement parts are harder to find.
There is only one company around today that I think has a consistent, high quality line of tools. That company is General. That only applies to their Canadian made machines however. Not a single dud in their line up that I've seen.
Andrew,
I have worked in a few big cabinet shops and found that owners don't necessarily buy tools for quality. Some shop owners buy tools only as profit producers; functional only to crank out a predictable product in an efficient amount of time with a minimum of relatively unskilled labor. Further, most plant workers seem to be just that.
Many Euro tools are also obtainable in US arbor sizes though, so I haven't eliminated overseas sources entirely. Parts are always going to be a problem out here in Montana. However, my window 'shopping' around has discovered some interesting US made stuff. Admittedly, I wish I could see all these products in person, but some tools (Router Hawk, Legacy, Super Shop et al) are smaller companies with fair product lines it seems. I just think that the smaller guys are worth checking out.
I am intrinsically applying the golden rule here. I am a small one man operation and wish success for other small businesses as much as I wish for myself and my family.
sawick
Sawick- It seems like I've seen your name around here for some time. Which suprises me that you recently discovered Bridgewood machinery. Wilke is just the dealer name of Bridgewood. You'll find alot of Bridgewoods machines are identical to machines costing much more. I've been very happy with their 15' planer I've had for maybe 4-5 yrs. I'm looking into buying their 12" or 16" jointer with the spiral cutterhead.
If you go to wilkemachinery.com they have a bargain corner, kinda like a scratch and dent, and test model machines for really good prices sometime.
If your interested in Oliver, they have or are coming out with a new line of machinery. I do know they already have the drum sanders out.John E. Nanasy
"Although I wish I could find a local source for Oliver. sigh"
Wow. they're still around? If it's the same Oliver that I'm thinking of, they used to specialize in HD wood patternmaking machine tools, and that trade is practically dead. Should have been the the Badger Patternworks auction two weeks ago, lots of Oliver stuff going out the door, some pretty cheap.
Jon
Edited 4/7/2003 5:02:20 PM ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 4/7/2003 5:02:54 PM ET by WorkshopJon
WorkshopJon,
Yes, there are Olivers around still. In fact I discovered a web site either on this forum or Woodweb.com or old tools.com (I can't remember) that specializes in finding and selling similar large used woodworking machines. There are a few large wood shops in Montana but most are new enough that tools are not being sold yet or at least I rarely hear of such liquidations. Once in a while I may see an old tool for sale but usually call too late or don't have any extra money at the time. sigh again
sawick
One consideration has to be the availability of parts and service at a location convenient to you. A friend of mine has a one man cabinet shop equipped with all Euro machines - mostly SCMI and their Mini Max line. All are very impressive, but on those rare occasions when he has a problem he has two choices: order the part he needs and wait 3 days or more for it to be shipped to him, or shut down the shop and drive 4 hours to the dealership. (Does anyone actually believe that BS when folks say they've had a machine for 10 years with no trouble at all? Sounds like a machine that's not getting much use.)
Jeff
I got a used 18" industrial bandsaw (Grob 4V-18) for a bargan price. I had to do a little fixing but now it can resaw 8" of oak like there nothing there. Makes my friend Laguna look like a toy. There are some impressive machines out there, and the prices for used industrial machines are very low. Most of my machines are from the better known companies (Delta, Powermatic, etc.) but this bandsaw from a lesser known company is fantastic.
Grob is still in business and still located in Wisconsin, but a new saw from them is a bit beyond my price range.
EdW,
You have supplied yet another example of exactly my original first post point. I had never heard of this company- Grob? Tell me more please.
sawick
Grob is a manufacturer of metal working bandsaws. Their saws will cut wood but are designed primarily for metal. Higher cost with speed reducing transmissions and they don't market to woodworkers because it's more bandsaw than a woodworker needs. It's a pain to switch back and forth between metal and wood, with steel at least because of the oil mess. I do metal and wood and have seperate bandsaws.
Edited 4/10/2003 7:41:35 AM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
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