Greetings.
I am completing my version of Rex Alexander’s Stickley Done Lightly Dining Table. My version is Soft Maple and Curly Maple with a 1 3/4″ thick sloid Maple top. I am nervous about finishing it – I do not want to ruin it. My only experience with finishing is traditional stain out of the can and polyurethane out of a can. I want a durable every day kitchen table finish that is not too difficult to apply. Any help would be great!
Thanks
Replies
Stay with what you know. Poly varnish is a good choice for an everyday table that may get some abuse although I much prefer a non-poly varnish.
A major project is not the best place to start using a new finish unless you have the time to practise on some scrap and learn how best to get the look you want.
DaleF
I disagree!
Fine furniture has traditionally been finished in shellac. Modern finishes tend to look too plasticy it's also soft, softer than shellac. Shellac is a wonderful finish with so many great features and benefits that if it were a modern invention would be right up there with the ball point pen..
How's this for a few of them.. it's safe!
you've been eating shellac all of your life.. they coat pills and a lot of candy with shellac.. It's modestly priced..
It's insanely simple to apply, it's nearly impossible to make a mistake that can't be fixed.. (maybe I shouldn't use the word nearly because I honestly can't think of any shellac finish that if screwed up couldn't simply be wiped off).. and if you ever make a mistake and need to refinish it you don't need to use sand paper,, you can simply wipe it off with denatured alcohol..
Nothing and I do mean nothing is as classy as shellac. Nothing has the depth or shine or elegance that shellac offers..
It dries in 15 minutes (the first coat) and if you want you can finish the whole table in two hours!
It's also biodegradable, natural, renewable, and extremly durable..
There are simple ways to finish this and if you are afraid of brushes (some are) you can spray, wipe, or apply it with a brick in a wind storm.. (I'm only slightly exagerating about the later) I do know that you can apply it with your stocking feet if you want and still wind up with a beautiful finish.
Not to get into an argument but there are a number of points that need to be made.>> Fine furniture has traditionally been finished in shellac.Not true for a number of years. Shellac as a furniture finish was replaced by lacquer after WWI. While the french polishing application technique can produce and outstanding finish, it is also a technique that takes some learning and experience to do well. Brushed on shellac is problematic because of it's fast drying and tendency to run. Spraying is the modern option. >> Modern finishes tend to look too plasticyThis is true if you built up too thick a film. But 2-3 coats of a properly applied varnish finish produces a nice finish that is more durable than shellac. Therefore, it's a good choice for a surface that will get the type of use that a kitchen table gets. >> it's also soft, softer than shellac. This depends on the type o varnish you are comparing it to. A short oil varnish is every bit as hard as a shellac. So is a NC lacquer. But, hardness is not necessarily a virtue. The harder the finish, the more likely and easier to scratch. It's easy ability to scratch is what makes shellac and lacquer so easy to rub out to a high gloss. Varnish is a lot "tougher" an does not scratch anywhere as easy. >> you've been eating shellac all of your life.. they coat pills and a lot of candy with shellac..Not the shellac you mix up or buy in a can. Food grade shellac is more refined and not thinned with a poisonous chemical. Each finish has it pluses and minuses. The minuses with shellac are its ease of scratching and its ease of damage by household chemicals. When used on a more decorative furniture item that does not get abused, shellac is a valid choice if the finish is applied with skill.Don't get me wrong. I am a fan of shellac and have used it frequently over the years. I have taught classes on mixing, cutting, application and rubbing out of shellac. In addition, I have taught classes on reparing shellac surfaces. I have used it as a stand-alone finish as well as a primer, barrier coat and sealer. My point is that there is no one universal finish that fits all applications. A finisher must understand the strengths and weaknesses of finishes and then make a choice based on weighing those factors alone with the level of appearence and durability required for the item being finished.I am also a firm believer in using techiques that are familier until adequate time has been devoted to learning a new technique. A major project is not the best time to be learning a new technique.Howie.........
Howie
If you are going to misstate things at least give full information. The poison you are so afraid of varies tremendously depending on who's making the alcohol denatured..
And it's not all poison only 2 % of a substance is added Just enough so high school kids don't buy it for cheap drunks.. If you are really afraid of denatured alcohol you can use medical grade if you wish. And speaking of poison is there anything in lacquer or any other finish that has been used for food or medicine?
As for lacquer, Having sprayed my share of lacquer over the decades I find the ease of apply shellac it's most charming feature. To get the really deep finish that fine antiques have it is nice to do a french polish technique, nice but not absolutely needed.. a good finish can be obtained simply by careful color sanding followed by a careful waxing.
As to scratching, Shellac is the only finish that can have it's scratches simply wiped away. A little denatured alcohol (or for you Howie, medical grade) <G> on a rag and presto, chango, scratch-be-gone
As for damage by household chemicals? sure ammonia will damage shellac. a Brillo pad will damage lacquer but once you understand those facts it's extremely simple to avoid using them.
Howie, you and I completely agree that there are pluses and minuses to all finishes, but the learning curve on shellac is so gentle that I'm not afraid to have absolute newbies attempt it.. the worst that happens is they wipe it off and start over.. Virtually every other finish has some really cruel lessons ahead which involve a lot of sanding and much more time..
>> If you are going to misstate things at least give full information. The poison you are so afraid of varies tremendously depending on who's making the alcohol denatured..I'm not sure what you mean by "misstating". "Denatured" by definition when used with ethyl alcohol is adding a chemical that will make someone sick--or perhaps even cause death. If that is not a poison, what is it?That said, I only go into the issue because you wanted to make a point of the safety of shellac. It's no more "safe" than any other finish. YOu wouldn't want to drink any of them. We will have to agree to disagree about the ease of application of shellac. I have taught finishing and brushing shellac is a major learning experiance if one is exclusively going to rely on shellac for the final coat. Padding it on or french polishing gives a much better finish with french polishing being the best.Howie.........
Howie,
Have you ever color sanded? It takes a rather lumpy surface and makes it shiney smooth without the labor of french polish.. I won't argue that it is as good as the french polish technique but it does produce a better finish than sprayed anything else..
Well I really didn't advocate drinking any finish, But shellac is safe to eat.. if someone is going to eat any finish wouldn't you rather they ate shellac?
>> But shellac is safe to eat.. if someone is going to eat any finish wouldn't you rather they ate shellac?ALL finishes are non-toxic when cured. You could eat any of them without harm.Howie.........
Howie,
That's interesting news, so they are spraying polyurethanes on pills nowdays? I honestly didn't know that. Do they use the same finish on candy so it won't stick to the wrappers?
It's amazing the information you get on the internet.
No, Frenchy, but if a child gnaws on the side of his crib that is finished with varnish, it will not harm him. That is actually better "news you can use" as a woodworker than your shellac on pill one. And yes, I know that also.Gretchen
I'm not sure why I persist in your silliness but, the reason that shellac is used is that it dissolves with stomach bile. They could easily coat with any other finish as far as safety.Now, I'm done.Howie.........
Howie,I didn't want to respond to the nonsense either.Actually, the shellac coating survives the acidic environment in the stomach and dissolves in the alkaline environment of the first part of the intestine. The content of pills with acid resistant coatings would be adversely affected if exposed to acid. Uncoated pills are designed to dissolve in the stomach.
Rich14
Interesting comments about stomach and lower intestines.. I'll assume you to be correct. Funny how far we need to go to define every word in a statement on the internet isn't it?
I'm not a chemist. Maybe you are, but to me poly's are a verson of plastic and not something healthy to eat.. I suppose we could debate untill the cows come home how much is too much and so on and so forth. but untill my brother tells me differant I'll avoid eating polyurethanes while I'll continue to take the pils prescribed for me and heck, eat candy whenever I want to..
frenchy,It's stomach and UPPER intestine (Duodenum to be exact - the next part of the digestive system right after the stomach). Interesting slip on your part, to repeat my point about the first part of the intestine as the LOWER intestine.But please, leave the pharmaceutical and confectionery use of shellac out of the discussion. And, please, no more descriptions of a dumbed-down method of applying it. It just doesn't matter.Rich
Rich 14
Last I heard free speech still prevailed. Since this isn't your personal forum untill I hear from Fine Wood Working otherwise I shall advocate as I see fit..
frenchy,As one who has been warned by the management here more than you know, I can assure you "free speech" most certainly does not prevail. Nor has it ever applied to this medium. Though I'm sure you believe the opposite.Advocate all you like. When have you ever been denied that opportunity?Rich
Rich14,
I guess I've been lucky, I haven't been warned. Maybe management is extremely tolerant of those like me who simply express a great deal of enthusiasm for a given subject.
It is my fervant wish that I never do offend management because this site and fine homebuilding is the only sites that I bother with at all.
Polyurethane is a plastic, but most single part "poly" varnish are uraklyds with the polyurethane modifying a different plastic resin, alkyd. Phenolic resin is also a plastic (bakelite in some forms). The issue is not being plastic, but looking plastic where in consumer grade formulations poly, when applied in relatively thick coatings, can look plastic because if the slight haziness compared to either alkyd or phenolic, or in particular shellac and NC lacquer--nitrocellulose lacquer.
Shellac is often maligned--in particular it's water resistence is often under rated, particularly with respect to liquid water. But it does have risks in kitchen table use that other finishes tolerate. In particular alkaline cleaners (containing ammonia for example) can destroy it pretty handily. If one can insure no such cleaners will be used it would probably survive pretty well. But if there is any chance of having "help" do the cleaning no such assurance can be made for things in the kitchen.
Of course, for shellac to be a worthwhile tabletopo finish it must be applied in a moderately thick film. Three coats, even of 2 lb. cut, aren't going to do the job very well, and won't come near to being enough to allow being rubbed out. (Color sanding is a term almost exclusively used in automotive context, not in woodworking.)
As always, very well said.
Do you still teach? If so, where if you don't mind me asking.
Peter
And not to start the shellac wars again, shellac for table top with a lot of use may not be the best idea. A lot of care with water and heat would need to be taken. Howie has given you encouragement. You could consider a non-poly varnish since it's application is the same as you are familiar with poly.
Gretchen,
Many fine tables were used for centuries with nothing more than shellac.. Care? only the same care you would give any piece of fine furniture. Split water/milk whatever? wipe it up. Most housewives know how to do that, even some husbands.. (especially if they've made the piece).
Put a hot pot on virtually any finish and you will need to do some repairs.. the differance between shellac and any other finish is that with shellac you won't need to be sanding to do those repairs whereas any other finish will can for major rework..
Dale,
If you have experience using varnish, than go with that. The question remains though, are you GOOD with varnish?
If I were finishing the table I would use CAB-Acrylic lacquer or shellac and I would spray the finish. But that's because I have a lot of familiarity with that process. Use the skills you already have.
But I hope you don't use a poly varnish. Any traditional varnish will apply much the same, so your previous experience will serve you. If this were a "kitchen" table, I'd advise using Behlens Rockhard which cures to a very, hard surface.
But dining tables are not supposed to get the kind of "hard use" that kitchen tables experience, and one should protect their surfaces with a pad during actual use, so almost any other good quality varnish will do. DON'T use spar varnish! It's designed to never fully harden.
Here are some tips. Sand to 180-22 grit. Dilute the first coat 50% with mineral spirits. It will go on very easily. You can literally scrub it in any direction and it will flow out very well and leave absolutely no brush marks.
24 hours later, use a rubber or felt sanding block with 220 grit and knock off any dust nibs gently, using little more than the weight of your hand and the block. Don't try to level the actual varnish film. Apply a full coat of varnish using standard brushing technique - flow it on in one direction, cross-brush, if you know how, once - don't over-brush. The important point about applying varnish is to use a full brush, let the finish flow out of the brush - DON'T SCRUB, holding the brush more vertical than tipped over, and LEAVE IT ALONE! Resist all temptation to "brush it out" or correct unevenness.
Now here's the "secret" to varnish application and the inevitable dust collection in the drying surface - sand them out. 24 hours after applying, level the surface and dust nibs, as above, with a sanding block and 220 grit. It should go very quickly. But if the varnish doesn't sand easily and gums up the sand paper at all, give it another 24 hours. You may not get a perfectly uniform surface with this first full coat, but you can get rid of all the dust nibs.
Apply another full coat, and level it. It should sand just about perfectly smooth after 48 hours with little effort. The sanding should easily make a uniform matte surface of all the hills and valleys of the finish surface.
Apply the final coat. Let it harden for a month. YES! A MONTH. With the sanding block, level with 220, then 320, then use wet-or-dry abrasive sheets with mineral spirits as a lubricant in grits of 400, 600, 800, 1200. Then automotive rubbing compound (red), then automotive polishing compound (white). Final rubbing with automotive swirl remover will give you a glass-like surface. You will have a beautiful, high-quality furniture finish that will be extremely durable.
Here's an option to the above. After the final full coat, level with 220. Then apply the varnish diluted 50% with mineral spirits just like the first coat. It will flow out easily and dry more quickly than a full coat and may give you a finish that is satisfactory without any further "rubbing out."
There is no "one method" of applying finish. There are many, many techniques that give excellent results. In previous posts, Gretchen has described a method of WIPING on many coats of dilute varnish. Maybe she'll post it here again.
Rich
Edited 5/17/2007 10:52 am ET by Rich14
Rich14,
Thanks! I guess I should clairify, this is a "kitchen" table and will get daily use (and abuse from my 3 year old).
I bought a gallon of Varathane Professional Fast Drying Polyurethane 1100 Satin that I originally thought that I would use - now I am having second thoughts. I have been told to thin it 10% and brush it on or wipe it on with a clean rag. However, you recommend to not use a poly varnish. What is an example of a non poly varnish? I guess that I am getting confused by the term varnish as I do not see it on the labels of the cans at Rockler or Home Depot.
I appreciate everyone's input - sincere thanks!
Dale
Dale,There are several types of "varnish" which is a general term for any film-forming finish. Most often "varnish" refers to a mixture of a drying oli a resin and a solvent. You have a varnish with a resin containing polyurethane chemistry.A "traditional" oil-based varnish has resins formed by "cooking" oils such as linseed or tung to form polymers or long chain molecules which react with oxygen to form the hard film finish. There are also alkyd resin varnishes.I don't recommend the varnish you have bought, both because it is polyurethane resin varnish and because it is a "satin" finish. Although, if you do use it, you will have a very durable finish. It's a good product. I just don't think it's as good as some other choices.Polyurethane varnishes don't result in as clear a film finish as an oil-based varnish. This problem gives rise to the complaint that polyurethanes result in a "plastic look. This "problem" is nowhere near as great as has been claimed, is really a consequence of the application process, and with good quality product, such as the Varathane, is probably nil. Nonetheless, polyurethanes don't rub out as well as oil-based varnishes.But, you have a satin varnish, which makes issues of clarity, due to the type of resin, moot. The way to make a satin finish is to start with a crystal clear substance, allow it to harden, then level it and abrade it until the desired degree of "satin" look is achieved. The look is the result of light-scattering qualities of the very topmost micro skin of the finish.By contrast, products called "satin" have "flatting" agents in them. They are suspensions of clear varnish and tiny flat flakes of material dispersed throughout the thickness of the film. They are not only "satin," they are cloudy.Rub out a clear finish such as an oil-based varnish or shellac to a satin look and compare that to a flatted varnish. The rubbed-out finish is clearly superior (pun intended). It is not only satin, but it glows and the character of the wood is apparent. But the flatted varnish is simply dull.The decision is yours, but I recommend you get Behlens' Rockhard. It's an oil-based varnish that hardens, um, HARD, and will easily stand up to the use a kitchen table receives. It rubs out beautifully to whatever final appearance you want. Apply as previously described.Rich
Dale,I forgot to explain, that after leveling the cured surface with 320 grit to a uniform matte surface, 4-0 steel wool will give a very nice, soft, satin surface effect.Rich
DaleF
my late 2 cents worth:
Avoid poly. It looks like hell and isn't repairable. If your table is going to last for years and occasionally take a beating, make it easy to fix any boo-boos.
Maple can blotch, so beware of pigmented stains. Minwax wood conditioner works well to prevent blotching if you follow the instructions. It also lessens the amount of dye/stain the wood will absorb, so you may have to repeat coats.
Wouldn't a Stickley finish be oil&varnish? Looks nice, easy to apply, repairable. Just give it time to dry well.
I'd be tempted to skip the shellac topcoat, lest I spend too much time cleaning water rings and fixing spilled drink marks. But shellac is one of my favorite finishes, and can be easily repaired (and looks really super).
Sorry to be late in getting you this true, definitive information. Everyone else is wrong unless they agree with me ;-)
One of the finishes Stickley used was amyl acetate lacquer (banana liquid because of the smell). He used thin coatings, but they were film finishes, and not likely to have been varnish, because of the dry time and necessity of rubbing out.
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