Porter Cable is recognized as the industry leader in power tools and specifically, routers, which are one of the reasons that I elected to, purchase the 693 Router Kit. My experience has not been in keeping with expectations. Upgrading to a PC 693 a few months ago I found it necessary to return the router kit the next day due to the guide rod rubbing the bushings and making a noise like a Wood Guiro. Not a noise that I would expect a well made plunge router base to make. Rockler exchanged it with no problems.
Today finds me even more perplexed than I was a few months ago. I do not expect any company to be able to produce a perfect product, but hope that a company’s customer service will more than compensate for the instances when a problem arises. Unfortunately, I have found that contacting Porter Cable’s customer service to be of no help and in fact dissuades me from considering Porter Cable products in the future.
The fixed base portion of the router kit that I purchased has been put to good use, but I have not been able to use the plunge base. A couple of months ago I decided to use the plunge base on a door along with my Porter Cable Hinge Butt Template Kit. I installed the bit, set the plunge base up and turned on the router to get started. Much to my surprise, the bit contacted the guide. Not being an “Expert” with a router I surmised that it was my fault and that I needed to take more time to familiarize myself with the plunge base.
This past week I was working on solid wood French Doors and needed to route the bolt into the top of the fixed door. Thinking the plunge base should work great for this operation; I affixed the template to the door and set the plunge base up for the various depths needed and installed a ½” mortise bit with a ½” shank and the appropriate guide. When the router was turned on the bit contacted the guide as it was plunged and a new bit was destroyed along with the guide being damaged.
The guide can be adjusted, but only minimally. Here is what the clearance looks like (not to scale) when that is done and the bit moves along the guide as it is plunged:
I contacted Porter Cable Service Center at: 888-848-5175 and spoke to a young man who gave me the following information:
“I don’t get calls like this often, but about 2 out of every 100 units have this problem. Try loosening the screws on the base and adjusting the base to try and center the bit.”
The screws holes on the base are countersunk and therefore do not provide any means of adjustment. A misaligned motor / base assembly gives rise to potential catastrophes: Damaged Material, Damaged Tools, and Injuries from Bits and/or Guides that explode under dynamic forces, etc.
It took numerous phone calls and a fax to PC upper management
PC Product Manager stated that the fixed base is placed into a jig and the base and motor aligned as the final step in the manufacturing process. However, the plunge base is not checked with the router motor when it is placed into the kit.
What am I missing here?
Replies
If only 2 in 100 have this problem, then ours must be from the same batch. I too assumed I was just doing something wrong...
d-
So you don't run afoul the same company again, two more things that PC shouldn't have ever put out before they fixed - the motor on the 3 1/4hp adjustable speed router, which after a short while just won't start (I know dozens of these), the plunge base on the 1 1/2 hp router (your current b***h) , and air tools.
I went through a similar exp. with PC regarding my $300 router which wouldn't wrap up without kicking it. When they discovered I had it in a router table, all warranties and bets were off. "We don't design them to be mounted upside down. You got sawdust in it" or to that effect. What a bunch of hooey.
In general, I still like most of their wares, but don't think an educated buyer is a bad thing. Researching trends on this stuff gets easier all the time, and this is a good place to keep the ear tuned. BTW, the 4 1/2" trim saw is a dandy for tight spots. But blades with 1/16" carbide and a thinner body are about $25 a pop here. Ouch.
" Clothes make the man. Naked people have litte or no influence in society" - Mark Twain
I purchased their 2HP plunge router and returned it due to a manufacturing defect. I then bought a DeWalt 3HP plunge router and returned it due to a manufacturing defect.
It isn't just Porter Cable that produces poor quality. BTW, if the rep is correct in that 2 out of 100 are reporting problems, that is is abysmal quality by any standard, and he should be ashamed to admit that.
I have noticed a number of woodworkers report problems with their power tools they purchase and have to contact the manufacturer for repair or return to our understanding retail outlets like Rockler and Woodcraft. I believe that woodworking manufacturers produce poorer quality products in general, than other more mass merchandised consumer products companies. And, by the way, quality and cost are not necessarily inversely proportional. Anybody who owns a Toyota knows what I am talking about. (Sorry to American car buyers for sounding so unAmerican).
I also think we are too tolerant of these quality problems!. And as long as we continue to buy from the same manufacturers of RELATIVELY poor quality, they won't change their processes and will continue to produce adequate, but not always reliable products. If there is a manufacturer that could step up and increase their quality, stand up and be counted!
Sorry for my rant. I haven't had my coffee, yet.
P.S. Does anybody know of a Consumer Reports-like evaluator of power tools? It would be interesting to get an idea of the companies that have better reliability and repair ratings.
So true! Thank you for such a well worded post.
In the past four months I have slowly been replacing all of my major power tools with Hitachi. They aren't perfect, but the customer service has been exceptional and I believe that for my purposes (Light Commercial and Residential Repairs and Remodel) Hitachi provides a far better value for the dollar than most other manufacturers. They have a limited offering of tools in some areas, however - no fixed base router for example. I have had one contact with Dewalt and they provided prompt and courteous service and actually went out of their way to get things right.
When buying a tool, I search all over the internet and through past issues of magazines I have for reviews. Generally I find at least one. This is a good starting point, but I have been burned by their reviews. They are supposed to be unbiased, but when they only look at one item from each brand, it makes you kind of wonder.
When I buy tools anymore, the next thing I check out is Amazon.com. Not to buy from them, but to get their user comments about the tools. Granted, you have to take the recommendations with a grain of salt, but if all of the users bad mouth a given brand, it's a good heads-up. Likewise, if I don't see anything but good things about a brand, I feel more comfortable buying it.
A case in point. A couple of years ago I bought a jigsaw. All of the magazine reviews said you couldn't go wrong with either Bosch, Milwaukee, or DeWalt. Liking yellow, I got the DeWalt 321? (priced at $159). It was horrible; it couldn't cut a straight line. It constantly veered to the right. When I forced it to cut straight, the cut wasn't vertical. I tried new blades, different wood, etc. Then I checked Amazon.com. Nearly everyone had the same complaint about the DeWalt. There must have been 15-25 bad reviews about it, all complaining about the same problem. I checked the Milwaukee and Bosch reviews on Amazon, nothing but high praise. I quickly took the DeWalt back for the Bosch (I would have gotten the Milwaukee, but HD didn't carry it.)
The 2 to 3% rejection rate is accurate; the majority of major tool manufacturers have been running at this rate for a number of years. All major tool firms - B&D, Rockwell/P-C, Skil, Stanley, etc. gave lifetime warranties - repeat "lifetime" warranties until the late 70's. Today's tool buyers are not aware of the history of most machines and are not the informed buyer they should be. Rarely do I buy a new machine in this environment - I'd take a B&D holegun from the 60's in a heartbeat. The P-C Bayonet saw is best in class - few know much about it. And the list can go on.
Of course there is no reason for a failure on a P-C router - they've been a respected name in routers for years. A lot of folks don't stand their ground with the service center - you run into bozos in every line of work and P-C has their share unfortunately. And there is a price to pay for buying on the cheap; I just returned from an industrial supply house that supplies P-C and Delta mainly to commercial establishments. You have a problem with a machine purchased from them - not a blink of the eye and you have a brand new machine. But you pay for that service, not the bare bones prices off the net.
By the way, Milwaukee still has a warranty with no time limit on the basic tool - the only major portable tool manufacturer to do so.
Paul -
A tidbit about Consumers Reports. Many years ago our old GE washer gave up the ghost after 20 years and raising 4 kids from infants to adults. Wanting to replace it with the best, I searched out Consumers Reports. Their issue said that Maytag was by far the best on the market. So, I got one.
Now, our old GE had set out in the garage for all it's 20 years with no problems. About 2 months after getting the Maytag, my wife went out to use it and discovered that it would not work. Seems it had froze up. I called Maytag and they said that it was not warrantied for freezing temps. It was winter and had gotten down into the 20's the night before.
Man, I was pissed! Seems that the GE washers all had a 'drain-back' so that no water was left in the pump after use. It would not freeze up and bust the pump. Maytag did not have a drain-back. I installed a replacement pump in the Maytag at my own expense and had to run a heat lamp whenever the temp got below freezing.
So, in my opinion, Consumers Reports is just a bunch of crap.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
CR is a magazine for size medium. If you don't wear medium, you'll always be disappointed in their recommendations.
My father is a typical user of their magazine. When he sees something he wants, he buys it and then checks the buying guide. If they say it's a best buy, he realizes he's made a good decision. If they pan it, he realizes they have flawed data.
How can anyone tell anyone else what the best peanut butter is to buy? How do they know? They don't have my mouth there!
About 10 years ago they did a comparison of about 20 camcorders. Three models all made by #### with different brand names were rated as best, middle of the pack and avoid, respectively. Funny thing is, the only difference in the three was the exterior. If you opened them up, they were identical. Very scientific.
Sorry for the rant. I think their magazine is a wasteful killing of trees.
JMHO
Kell
Sorry about your experiences with Consumer Reports. I always take their recommendations with a grain of salt and use their testing as input into my purchase decisions.
I do, however, pay close attention to the reliability ratings that are based on real repair data on particular brands. To me, this is a good indication of their quality control. The better the reliability, the less likely it is that you'll have to take their product back. If we had some objective reliability data that rates Delta, Porter-Cable, DeWalt, Hitachi, etc. against one another, it would be helpful to some of us in making a purchase decision.
This is especially true now that most manufacturers produce such similar products and price them so close together. There are often no clear winners. You can almost feel the pain the writer goes through when he/she is forced to declare one product an "American Woodworker Recommended Product" or whatever they call it. And Most of the woodworking magazines do not pay much attention to the reliability of the products when they rate them, since that isn't what they are about.
So I'll ask my question again, a bit differently. Does anybody know of an objective 3rd-party evaluation of the reliability of power tools for woodworkers?
Paul,
Well said and thanks for your comments. I love this forum for discussions of all types.
I agree that reliability ratings can give you an historical overview of a company or brand's past, I also feel they're worthless, in their current form, for predicting the reliability of a new product. Unless a new model is made at the same factory (possible) by the same workers (also possible but less probable) on the same assembly line (even less probable) with the same parts (depends on the model changes) that have the same failure rate (finally something that is likely to be the case) as the last model, it's as if the model has never before been created, which in fact, it hasn't. In addition, the people giving the information for the survey itself are those compelled to do so and may not be a statistically significant group compared to the number of models actually built and sold.
Now if the ratings gave you all that data, they could also give a confident expectation of reliability. The magazine states this, in a way, and says that these ratings are a "likely predictor" of future reliability. My feeling is, if all manufacturers are working on about the same level of acceptable failure, and that is <1% most of the time except with the lowest quality and also lowest priced models or brands, then the odds of my getting a bad one are about the same all around. I'll buy the tool based on features, benefits and price and available customer service and take my chances.
So far, the only ones I've regretted buying were the ridiculously cheap models or off-brands. I got what I paid for. As I've gotten older, I've quit buying those.
Just my thoughts.
Kell
Don't think I've ever seen such a system of ratings for tools. The only thing that comes close is the "Endurance Test" in each issue of Popular Woodworking where they review a tool they've been using in their shop for several years.
Other than that, the only thing I can suggest doing is gathering experiences on particular tools from forum members. I think we all try to be honest in our evaluations.
Jeff
Edited 1/23/2003 2:20:46 PM ET by Jeff K
How could it be objective unless you can see in the shop of your raters. Some people will vote for what they own & use, some for what they like to see and many who never used the tool will say it is great because they own it in a cabinet in the garage. Most of those opinions are worthless. One or two seasoned opinions beats a team of 100 in my book.
Use the Forum and ask 1 tool at a time. Like everone else. I personally lurk on those columns and try to see who has right to an opinion that I respect. There are plenty of seasoned vets who respond. Some with bigger wallets than mine but their vested interest is in the forum not selling red,yellow, black or grey tools.
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
It is extremely difficult to establish a rating system for power tools. Many years ago, major tool companies had at least 3 levels of product, consumer/homeowner, tradesman and industrial. These catagories are very blurred today and the reviews in woodworking/trade journals add to the confusion. An example: Tools of the Trade tested worm drive saws. Now worm drive saws are the heavy duty side of portable saws - and the review did evaluate handling/weight characteristics. But when it came to performance, the reviewer cut a bunch of 2x's - a $39 saw with a dull blade will cut today's spf 2x's! The evaluation should have been done by a concrete form builder using rough oak or a pier/bulkhead builder cutting heavy treated bracing timbers. That would have been a fair evaluation.
When I decide on a new tool, I pick the heaviest, continuous application I can find and see what they are using. Visit a furniture factory and look at the sanders they use (granted most are air powered) and you will see almost exclusively Porter-Cable. Looking for that extra heavy duty drill - invariably I find Milwaukee.
Another place to check durability are rental centers, preferably those that cater to industrial users. Not only have I checked local ones, but I've called centers in distant states so I didn't get skewed with regional preferences.
I'm very happy with all my power tools - I have a farm, do some timber framing, make furniture for clients and teach wood shop in a high school so I really use my equipment! And not one item was purchased from a Lowes or Home Depot for one reason - noe of the extra heavy duty models are stocked by the big box stores. Tools are an investment - I expect mine to last my lifetime and I full well expect to pass them on to the next generation.
I've noticed that the batteries on my PC 14.4 cordless drain a lot faster then they did when I bought it a bit over a year ago. I still like the drill, and the dealer I bought it from says he'll get me some new batteries, but I still am disappointed that they don't hold a charge very well anymore. I'm happy with the other PC tools I own, but I'll be taking a much closer look at any tools I buy in the future.
I find that the more I look at tools today the more obvious their shortfalls are. Plastic is everywhere, and the flood of DIYers everywhere is boosting demand for cheap tools. Manufacturers shift their attention to cheap tools because that's where the money is, meanwhile, quality tools become harder to find, and much less affordable. Now, quality will never be cheap, but economies of scale come into play, and prices would be somewhat cheaper for the same tool if more people put an emphasis on quality instead of price.
Andrew -
On your PC 14.4V drill. If you take the battery pack apart and use a volt meter to test the batteries, you will probably find some that are showing 0.0 V, or even a small negative voltage. Those are bad. I replaced 5 of the nicads in mine and it is back to par now. Replacing them was a lot cheaper than buying a new btry pack. I bought them at a local battery store. I think it is a national chain. Don't remember the name. They are using a cheap nicad in the btry pack. Mine lasted about a year before some of the batteries started going. But, I use mine every day, discharging a pack at least once per day..
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
I totally agree with you. Obviously there are some features in new tools that are desirable such as soft start routers and variable speed that gives full torque over the full speed range. But for the most part, power tools are now being designed for the mass consumer market. That's why some tool folks don't consider Black & Decker/DeWalt as a tool maker anymore - they are really a consumer products company.
A classic example of a real tool is the Porter Cable models 503/504 belt sander. It traces its history to the first belt sander commercialy built. The machine has a worm/chain drive and is just built for the long haul. But at $400, most folks won't even consider it - and you won't find it in the big box stores or on most web sites. But you will find them in use in most furniture factories and industrial applications. Trouble is, many folks see a tool purchase as an addition to their "trophy" collection and are unwilling to spring the extra bucks for a machine with a demonstrated track record.
As I said earlier, tools are an investment and folks should explore them wisely.
Price drives the market, unfortunately. A lot of the old standards have disapeared or if they haven't, they are expensive. Another PC classic is the 9118 Porta Plane.
http://www.porter-cable.com/cgi-bin/products.cgi?method=byid&prod_id=9118
It's on my wish list but it will be awhile- it's over $400. I'm happy with the 347 circular saw but I don't believe it is well built as the old Model 315. Still more than a few of them working- they had a grease cup for lubrication. With a little maintainance, it was a lifetime tool.
Aboslutely! I have a 315 - great saw. Also agree on the Porta-Plane. I also have some of the older 3/8 drills with triple gear reduction as well as the extra heavy screw guns with triple gear reduction - no one makes them anymore with triple gears - we have a whole generation of folks trying to use machines that are not up to the job.
I just acquired a Rockwell/Delta 1440 jigsaw (vintage early 40's when they called them jigsaws, not scroll saws!) with stand, variable speed for $200 in excellent working order. Not as glitzy as the new machines, but built rock solid and does a beautiful job!
I generally don't have problems with my power tools, but I do notice some subtle design things that could be different... for example, the PC557 plate joiner cannot plunge with the fence up when using the FF cutter, this could easily have been designed differently had the product engineer actually tried to do it while in the prototype phase.
I did have a problem with a PC7529 plunge router that was very irritating, when I returned it to woodworker supply, they sent me a new router that was design updated, the 8529 model.
Perhaps part of the problem is that the mfg'ers are under more pressure to shorten the design cycle and increase the feature updates of existing products. Whever the reason, it can be pretty annoying when you are trying to make your living with these tools.
I focus my purchases on manufacturers that I have confidence in for specific tool categories, and from retailers (in-store or online) that I know will return or replace something that isn't working right.
I have the 691 and the plunge version as well.
The motor is a great thing as is the D handle.
The plunge base Is screwy. It isn't a continuous plunge. There is a tremendous inertia to start the plunge moving. After It starts moving it is loose as a goose. I've found that the plunge binds less if you push down dead vertically. But don't you need to push up against a fence or some guide at the same time? I think it is not well concieved. However the 691 is not leaving my shop, and who wants two brands of router?
The good news is PC makes improvements continually. Take the collets, the original equipment had 4 expansion/compression slots, then they went to 8 or so, then they went to 8 with the snap ring at the collar so it was self-extracting when you backed off the nut.
I''ve gone to the local PC parts store and bought them off the shelf when the new design comes out.
I'm just hoping they figure out how to make that plunge action less goofy. Thank God for the stop rod otherwise you'd never stop your plunge.
I have read the post here and agree that some things come up high price and low quality. Customer service is somewhat lacking form some of the manufacturers. Wouldn't it be nice to have a company with reasonable prices, good quality and outstanding customer service..
My 1/2" drill went out in the middle of a project about a week ago. Been cranking for 31 years. Probaly just brushes, but I had to keep on schedule. Went to Lowe's and bought a new drill based on amps (torque is what I look for in a 1/2"). Brought it home and it is a kick-hinny torquer and it feels good in my hand. $119 (fair) Hmmm... never paid attention to this brand.
Checked with some locals as quite a few are swear-bys with this company. Did extensive search reviews and all good responses with them. Was told their customer service was out-standing, so I dropped by our local service center here in Atlanta (5 miles away from my home). Spoke with them about 30 minutes and I walked away impressed.
Was in Lowe's 4 days ago and they were clearing this companies SCMS @ $337 ($469 retail) for the new model. Took it home and it was deadly accurate out of the box. Another feather in their cap. Needed a new 3 + HP router. Did some research with people that use them every day. Ordered thier 3 1/4 HP with accessories included @ $194. From what I have read and heard from locals, I don't expect to be disappointed.
I am slowly gaining confidence and respect for this tool company. From what I've experienced and reviewed, this is shaping up to be one of the best values on the market with customer service to back it up. IMO..
<<<< HITACHI >>>>
Research and try it... You might like it also....
sarge..jt
I don't know of anyone who tracks tool reliability. I've watched what people I work with use, read tests, and frequent sites like this one and come to my own conclusions. About the only thing you can do is keep your ear to the ground and ask around. A reliability survey would be a good thing. Over the years I've owned and used Porter Cable equipment (routers, sanders. jigsaw, circular saws) and have been satisfied with them all. I've had good luck with Milwaukee, Makita, and Hitachi, too. My one bad experience was with Ryobi. Here's a link to site I find helpful.
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/default.asp
Sarge,
I'm thinking you found some good tools. I've always had good luck with them except that 1/2 drill. This is more of a habitcomfort thing, but I don't like where they put the trigger lock. I seem to hit it a lot when I don't want to. The thing is a torque machine though.
I first found them through the 3 1/2 hp router. Mine isn't variable speed, but for most of my work that's fine. It's another workhorse. For the miter saw, I've never used one, but I have met and read here and elsewhere about those that swear by em.
Don
Don
Thanks for your input. I have never even considered Hitachi before I purchased the drill. Saw the 15 amp rating and knew the torque would be there. Was not disappointed. BTW, I only engaged the trigger lock once in about 300 sheet metal screws I inserted. If it becomes a problem, I will dis-engage.
Lucked into the SCMS as Lowe's is clearing for the new C10FSB which has a taller fence with flip and easier to read scale. I modified the C10FS by adding a phenolic 3 3/4" fence in about 30 minutes. Took care of the scale by masking it and shooting the base black. Lightly sanded off the black on the degree indicators and hit them with a fine point artist brush with red enamel paint. Even I can read them now.
Had the TR12 3 1/2 HP in my hand today. The varialble speed is not truly needed unless you push large panel raising bits. The TR12 is the most balanced plunge router I have ever experienced. The plunger is not as smooth as the DW625, but for $144 who cares. ha..ha..The M12V has the variable speed @ $194.
BTW, I recently pruchased a PC circular saw. Have run it through a bunch of MDF. Hope it turns out to be a proven "battle-ship" like the PC 4 x 24 belt sander I've had forever. IMO, every company has their "hits" and their "misses". It's up to the consumer to figure out "which is which". The worlds not prefect, we just have to get used to it. <grin>
Have a good evening, Mr. C. Good to hear from you...
sarge..jt
Hmmm...sounds familiar to me. I think your problem is the router base is not concentric to the spindle. Here is how I diagnosed and fixed it; if you desire photos I could email a few directly to you.
I got a Porter Cable #6931 Plunge Router Base a few years ago. After doing some cuts using the router base against a guide, I concluded things were not square or centered well enough.
Using a dial indicator fastened to a rod chucked in the spindle, I checked squareness of the base to the spindle. It was .030" (1/32) out of square!! Examining the squareness problem another way, I checked squareness of the base to the guide rods. Also off by .03 inches. Then I checked concentricity of the phenolic base plate to the spindle -- it was .03" out!! Damn lousy machining job, in my opinion!!
Parallelism of the guide rods to the bore for the router motor was within .002" -- not bad. But the motor fit very loosely in the bore, and depending on how tightly I clamped it, the motor would tilt to a greater or lesser degree. To fix this, I epoxied .004" brass shim stock inside the bore. Now clamping the motor would not tilt it.
To fix the squareness, I filed off the metal base on the high side and made it flat and square to the spindle within .005". I lapped the phenolic base uniformly thick within .004". To make the phenolic base concentric, I snugged it to the metal part of the base using pan-heads and big washers (rather than the stock flatheads), trued it up to the spindle via the dial indicator, and then drilled holes thru for spring-pins. Now the countersinks in the phenolic base (for the flathead screws) are a bit off from the tapped holes in the metal part of the base, but the screws pull up OK and the spring-pins keep the phenolic base concentric.
I did some stuff to make things slide smoothly on the guide rods too -- and to prevent cocking...
Now it works quite well, but little thanks to Porter-Cable!
P.S. I COULD go on about their 9145 portable planer too...
Edited 1/24/2003 1:05:54 PM ET by Woody
Woody:
Thanks, I would have never thought that my post would have generated 26 responses in such a short time. You have far more patience and skill at this stuff than I do. Thanks for the a detailed corrective action plan.
Regards
Fred
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