For refernence to others thinking about buying an Anant Plough plane, this is an e-mail sent to Anant today.
Dear Sir or Madam:
I received an A52 Plough plane as a gift recently. Although I’ll never tell my wife, who gave it to me, I am very disappointed with the plane.
The casting and machining leave much to be desired. Tuning the plane for an upcoming project has been difficult.
The fence is not parallel to the skate or even close to parallel. A wooden fence, with parallel faces, has to be shimmed so that it would be parallel to the skate.
The groove cut into the skate for holding the irons / blades is not parallel (in line) with the skate. If I shimmed the wooden fence parallel to the skate, the blade & fence would not be perpendicular. I had to adjust the fence to the cutting surface of the blade. The blade grove appears to be perpendicular to the depth stop reference surface. I would think that the skate should be machined perpendicular to the depth stop referenced surface.
The hole drilled for the fence arms are not perpendicular to face of the main body of the plane causing the arms to be angled downward (both by the same amount). This may be by design to compensate for the face of the metal fence and the holes to attach the arms not being parallel, but a stated earlier the fence and body of the plane don’t align properly. The holes for the fence arms are angled slightly to front of the plan & the rear of the plane for the respective holes.
The threads in the rods & screws are not well done and bind at points. Finally, the handle is cocked to one side forcing pressure to one side to the plane. I had to shim that to be in line with the body of the plane.
I had thought about buying some of your other woodworking product but now am very hesitant to do so.
Sincerely,
Replies
Well what can one say? Anant have merely taken up where messrs Stanley and Record left off, in addition to trying to beat them on price. What can be expected for peanuts?. No doubt they probably will improve, and so will the price increase. Remember that these guys sell thousands of those planes to a bottom-less relatively unsophisticated market located in more than one continent.
It could be interesting to know what in fact the result or reaction to your letter was.(May be different to what is replied to you).
Philip:You know, the plummet in hand tool quality seems to have accelerated. Everyone agrees that current Stanleys are junk, and Record is no more. But older Stanleys were quite functional, and I have both a Record jointer and and low angle block plane that are (after a reasonable amnount of fetteling) perfectly useful tools. I bought both Records new about 20, maybe 25 years ago. I have used both as late as last week, with good results.Joe
Joe, the Stanleys and Records of 25years ago were quite okay. At the time I recall that the Record was considered superior to the British Stanley.Good for a life time and more when used properly. I also bought some of mine new at aroundabout that time, and have been more than happy with them.
I reckon the rot set in when they came up with those fibre glass /plastic knobs and handles, and started belt grinding them with very rough grits. Ofcourse this was further aggravated by the constant clamour for more for less....If you can see how most of these planes are worked in various places around the world you would agree that squareness, flatness, lost motion etc are just words.Philip Marcou
Edited 6/25/2007 6:10 am by philip
Sad, but makes sense.
You know, it may be the case that if the present stock of older tools gets used up ove time, as it will, that the craftsmen of the future on limited budgets will have little ability to use hand tools at all. Where would they get them? The tools that pass for saws and planes these days at affordable prices would actually impede their work. The truly fine tools such as you and Mike W. and a few others make would be as far out of reach as would be a new jaguar automobile for most beinning craftsmen. Even the prices on Veritas and similar are out of reach for people with limited disposable income. I would imagine that there would be a material investment in tooling to develop a modestly-priced line like the Stanleys and Records of yore, to say nothing of marketing, getting distribution and actually selling enough to keep the doors open.
Joe
Hi Joe,
I keep hearing comments suggesting that the steel used in newer planes is inferior to that which was used in the pre WW-II planes that you speak of.
I'm curious to know if the old steel can still be found or is it really expensive?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:
Not sure that it is pre-WW2 as much as pre-1960 or 1975, depending on the kind of tool. I am no more an expert on this than you are; perhaps someone else will chime in. However, as one who once worked in a steel foundry, I can assure you it that modern steel can be as good if not better in terms of metallurgy and consistency than older steels. Indeed, steelmaking is much more a science and less an art than ever before. That being the case, it comes down to the economics of the market. Most woodworking today is done with power tools, some of which have very fine steel, indeed. Hand tools are for most people, fill-ins. You use a chisel to fill in or finish up what you couldn't do with your router and table saw. Therefore, the large manufacturers have lost their markets and sell low end junk. They could make better, but they cannot make money doing it.
Good hand tools are now a niche market, and are priced and marketed accordingly.
Joe
Bob,It is not the steel that is (necessarily) inferior, but the machining and the hand work. In the 18th century, steel making was largely an art- carried on at places like Sheffield, England. Craftsmen developed techniques for making carbon alloyed steel- and guarded them as trade secrets. By the 19th century, chemistry and metallurgy had developed into true disciplines, and findings were published and patented. Todays A2 and similar steels are excellent and very consistent. If you price replacement blades for Bailey and Bedrock they are not exorbitant.On the other hand, the crucial elements of plane making- creating a dead flat sole, machining the frog and throat- require expensive hand work and measurement. If you look at a LN plane, out of the box- the sole is flat, the frog is in alignment- everything is within a one or two thou of true. As a result, you can take the plane out of the shipping container and begin using it (perhaps honing it first).To achieve this, the casting process has to be accurate and highly reproducible, to minimize the time and cost of the subsequent machining. Old Baileys and Records were made to a similar standard, and thus, if they are not badly abused, they can be fettled to very good working order in a few hours. Anant and Groz planes are not close to this standard (at least at present from the ones I have seen). You can spend a fortnight, but you are not likely to achieve an acceptable outcome. An old (pre-WWII) Bailey costs about the same as its Anant counterpart. So you'd be better off buying and restoring the former than the latter.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...planes,
You can still find them! Old Stanleys/Records/Baileys are out there. It just takes some effort to find them. Even if they are rusted beyond belief, they usually can be brought back to life. Japanning? who cares? I recondition anyway. If the sole is flat, the throat is still close to spec., and the frog is secure, it'll work. A new Hock chip breaker and iron will help. I'm not into "antique" tools for their appearance, I want them to work. A freind of mine bought an Anant--it chattered, and cut angularly. I couldn't get it to stop. I gave him a spare Stanley #5 I had. End of story.(well, maybe not; he won't give it back).
Talk to Patrick Leach if you need a Plane. Visit his tool site at Blood And Gore
Oh, I agree completely. I have several Stanleys and Records, and even an LN. I just worry about the generation after us, when we have used up the remaining stock.
Joe
Joe,
It will all work out, just as it has in the past.
They might be more expensive, but then again costs are relative to supply & demand as well as all other economic influences.
I remember when I got paid 75¢ for a haircut, now they're how much?????? But then again, gasoline was 39¢ per gallon too....................
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I wouldn't worry about that Joe. My Bailey #5 is ca 1888. It will outlive me. Stanley, Record, Millers Falls et al made hundreds of thousands of these planes, and unlike their wooden counterparts, they are largely immortal.-mGlaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
<<Talk to Patrick Leach if you need a Plane. Visit his tool site at Blood And Gore>>
You might want to reconsider: I am still waiting for delivery or refund on a Spiers infill panel plane that I paid for 18 months ago. All I have gotten from Mr. Leach is delays and excuses.
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
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"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
James,
As a self-tutored iconoclast and practicer of anti-syncophancy, I think you should relate the wider tale of this non-delivery. There is nothing like the bright searchlight of publicity for getting the naughty folk to do as they ought, especially if they are relying on a high reputation and a gaggle of sycophants to protect them from sanctions.
After all, if such folk think that lots of people having a high regard for them is excuse to become uncaring and self-indulgent, they need to be made to behave properly once more and to make recompense. Otherwise they should perhaps receive a smacked bottom, so to speak, from the market.
Reputation is a hard-won thing requiring many, many good transactions to build a widely held trust. It takes only one major sin to destroy that reputation. Best right the sins reet quick; and it is our duty to tut a bit, in order to start the process. After all, even a capitalist may be redeemed by contrition, especially of a practical kind, such as the delivery of your item.
What more can you tell us?
Lataxe, a difficult customer (by proxy)
I for one would like to hear more details--both from James and from Patrick. I have been doing business with Mr. Leach for more than several years and have found him to be an excellent source of tools. I have found what I have purchased to have always been properly described and within what I have defined as my budget to spend.
I would also add that Patrick generally mails tools for your approval before payment to him. This is a huge risk on his part.
Again, I would like to hear details.
Hmmm,
I would like to hear that story from both sides. I have been a customer of Patrick's for several years now and have found him to be among the most honest, fair dealing (if no nonsense) guys around.
I'm sure if I stopped to count it all up I have purchased nearly $10,000.00 worth of tools. I have never had any issues, not one, nada, zip. The pics were clear, descriptions accurate and his terms are liberal (once you establish yourself as a customer).
Yet you bring up a problem with your dealings with him in an unrelated topic on a public forum with no details. Dirty Pool.
BTW I have no relationship with Patrick beyond being a satisfied, regular customer who would recommend him to anybody.
David Carroll
David,
I never dealt with Mr L: the post was a comment to James (pzgren) who said that he has had a problem and is still without his goods.
My post is in the context of a thread concerning quality of goods (and by implication, quality of retail service). If there has been a "sin" by a tool seller, of whatever kind, forums such as this are a good place to air the grievance (and, as has been suggested) for an explanation to be made in reply - the two sides of a story.
I'm sure James will be relieved to hear that many people have had very good dealings with this retailer. On the other hand, if something has gone bad, for whatever reason, we all would benefit from knowing.
Let's hope that James' issue can be resolved, then.
James, any thing to add?
Lataxe
>James, any thing to add?Yes, James, by all means do tell all.Please, have a go at the keyboard first as I'd like everyone to read the sad story. I'll then follow-up, and we can have a bitchfest for the ages, where interested parties can rubberneck to their heart's content as they choose sides.Should you opt not to post the details, I'll consider doing it for you as you libeled my good name here.btw, why didn't you cash the check I sent you?Patrickps Nothing personal, James, but you chose to air this, not me.
Mr PB,
Well, it's cetainly true that stories have at least two sides. I hope you are not offended by my encouraging yours to come out in this instance.
Now then; does James have more to add or is it time to apologise and be contrite?
Reputation: worth fighting for.
Lataxe, a shopper.
Mr Leach:
I have not libeled you, although you have come perilously close to libeling me by saying that I did. Take very good care that you don't cross that line, whether directly or indirectly, in regard to me.
I am drafting a reply to the several individuals in this thread that have expressed an interest in hearing what I have to say concerning my extreme dissatisfaction with the business transaction in question. For those that have already decided that I am in the wrong, they can read it or not as they see fit.
When I finish drafting my reply, I will post it. Among other things, it will contain a detailed chronology of events, backed by dated (extracts of) emails that passed between yourself and me.
Very shortly, you will be presented with an opportunity to finally satisfactorily resolve this matter. I hope that you will take it.
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Holy Cow! Patrick Leach is on the forum?
Freakin' Sweet!
Lee
Maybe he can recommend me a nice transitional plane for me to tune up... haha
I probably can get a transitional to perform well enough for me if I was willing to take the time to tune it up.... it's a shame he bad mouths them as much as he does..
Sorry Lataxe, I responded to you when I should've responded to James.
I have heard Patrick's side already (he's not at all unapproachable).
He sent the plane purchased through Ebay, right away by Mail before waiting for the check to clear (which he does with tool guys). A month or more goes by and Patrick is notified by James that he has not received the plane.
P sends J the paperwork to file the claim with the PO, which takes James weeks to fill out and return. Patrick gets the form from James and submits it to the PO and hears nothing and assumes all is well and that the PO has settled the claim with James.
"Months go by" and Patrick hears again from James about the matter.
But the lengthy delay had run out the time limit the post office grants on filing damage/loss claims.
So who is at fault here?
Patrick feels it was James's delay after delay that resulted in the mess, but feeling bad about it, sent a check for half the purchase price.
To date, James has not cashed the check.
Note to all: I don't like getting involved in these things, but what James said, in my opinion was an irresponsible drive by shot at a man who, based on my dealings has always been fair and honest. Based on what Patrick told me, he tried to make the best of a bad situation, caused by the PO and worsened by innaction in an honorable way.
James has not told his side yet. But as I see it Patrick did no wrong and tried to resolve the issue like a responsible businessman.
David Carroll
I've bought a lot of my best tools from Mr. Leach, and a lot of tools from other tool dealers, and a lot of tools off ebay. If there's a better tool dealer on the internet than Mr. Leach, I don't know who it is.That drive-by tomahawk chop of a post from that guy was uncalled for, embarrassing, and unseemly. I think "Panzer Grenadier" ought to read up on the definition of "libel," get his ducks (or toy soldiers, or whatever) in a row, and explain himself.Somewhat disproportionately steamed, I know, but what else we got to talk about, popup ads for casket mfrs? Ed
SW, If you would be so kind to Email me the address for Anant , I would be soooo beholding to ya. You see I must discuss the qualities of their #78 and (silly me) their combination plane-aka#45- in a little note that could never fit in the Knots format , even with extensions. Paddy
Anant e-mail address:
[email protected]
I'm very curious to see a response to my e-mail. I more or less expect no reply. I'll post Anant's response if and when I get one.
SW
SW, thanks, I will follow up, Paddy
Paddy:For some reason, even quite good companies ignore the e-mail that comes to them via a web site. Why this should be, I have no idea.You might want to send a letter to a senior individual at the company; that way, you have a much better chance of having it seen by someone who might actually do something.Regards,Hastings
H & P,
It is remarkable, really, that some of the lower end mass-produced "tools" may be sold at all. They are not fit for purpose and, in Britain at least, such sales are supposedly illegal. Of course, you have to prove unfitness for purpose, which may fall foul of a poor definition of what the purpose is. The latest marketing trick is to claim that if something is labelled "not for professional or trade use" this means it can be dross.
However, perhaps the better target for complaints or even action, are the retailers who push the dross, inclusive of glowing descriptions and touched up photographs in their tool porn catalogues? Anant's customers are not woodworkers but those importers and retailers who resell their shoddy goods. From a customer's point of view, they have been duped by that retailer rather than by Anant.
In my more boisterous days, I have picketed offending retailers after they have sold me a pig in a poke. The technique is to complain tenaciously, begining with a well-mannered request and (if no satisfaction is gained) progressing through various stages to outright and loud hostile commentary on their doorstep, via their postbox and any other conduit you can find. (This can be fun).
The technique only works in a precentage of cases, I must confess; so often you only feel the satisfaction of having embarrassed them for half an hour, rather than the satisfaction of a refund.
But these days, you can make your complaints known far and wide, via the Internet......
One loud dissatisfied customer apparently diminishes the potential customer list by a factor of at least 10, or so the convential wisdom goes. Using something like Knots (and any other WW forum you know of) to curse the dross may increase that factor to 100 or more......?
Lataxe, a difficult customer.
Lataxe:Remember markets are ultimately efficient, i.e., if buyers' needs are not satisfied, firms will eventually cater to them. Either the incumbent suppliers "get the message" or others will step into their place.Woodworking is a relatively new activity for me, having graduated from DIY. Some time ago, I went to get two planes (block and smoothing) in order to build some kayaking paddles from a fine woodworking store. As an ignorant newbie, I remember being amazed at the differences in price and wondering how could anyone pay so much! Anyway, I left with a couple of cheap planes and an oil stone.My journey into woodworking has brought light into this area of personal darkness. Funnily enough, the block plane worked pretty well and the smoother not at all. The other day, I tuned them up and both are passable but will get upgraded to LN, when the exchequer approves.My rather long-winded point here is that most buyers might never know and so they assume that this is how a plane works. Rather like pilgrims to Mecca, many of whom have their first encounter with modern technology, in the form of the airplane. One group were quite unfazed when said flight crash-landed because they didn't know any better, they just assumed that planes landed thus.And so the market might not have a chance to work its magic, if the great majority of buyers of this junk remain ignorantly satisfied. In which case, more crap to follow; and in rather large quantity, I fear.The internet offers so much more scope for revenge on the purveyors of shoddy merchandise. Did you read the story of the guy who was cheated by a Brooklyn camera store? The subsequent denial of service attacks put them out of business! No need to picket the store; you can do it from the comfort of your armchair.If you are inclined, you can pick up the story here:http://thomashawk.com/2005/11/priceritephoto-abusive-bait-and-switch.htmlRegards,Hastings
H,
Well, it just goes to show that you are correct - the Internet Customer has plenty of power to bring down errant traders. The various horor stories concerning New York camera traders on the Net are rife within virtually all Internet photography sites that I know of. The danger has become almost common knowledge.
You would think, wouldn't you, that the New York Trading Standards people (or whatever the equivalent is there) would be rather more vigilant in protecting their city's reputation. It is likely, now, that a very large number of Internet shoppers will avoid camera buying (or maybe anything-buying) from any retailer in New York, whether they be good, bad or indifferent in reality.
Even this kind of market-led winnowing-out of the bad is not too efficient, however. It means that a number of unhappy customers must first be duped and robbed before that particular market force grinds towards the application of the necessary sanctions.
Personally, I prefer that capitalist machinery be regulated, like any other important social institution, by A Power (local or national government) to ensure that bad practice is prevented before it starts, rather than dealt with after the fact, as often as possible. This is what democratic government is supposedly for.
Of course, many think that regualtion is a Bad Thing, especially of sales in relatively inconsequential items like cameras or woodworking tools. But even Rabid Libertines tend to draw the line concerning other social services, such as medical care and arms production. Although, come to think of it, there are societies that are quite happy for unscrupulous people to exploit the sick and vulnerable; and arms dealing is not without its moral issues viz-a-viz the national interest versus the interests of some greedy manufacturing syndicate.
***
I notice, incidentally, that there is an advert in the back of FWW by a retailer selling better quality Anant planes, ie ones with (claimed) thicker blades, better machining, etc.. Is this not a tacit admission by Anant that their normal product is dross?
Lataxe
Lataxe:There are no New York Tradng Standards people or equivalent. There are probably some state statutes that govern consumer fraud, but sharpies usually know how to skate the edge there. They use terms like "as is," with roots back into the common law, or they claim that they have not fully examined the merchandise, or they are just crafty about their descriptions.Joe
Lataxe,
More on the Anant "Premier" planes here:
http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/SearchView.aspx?q=anantYesterday I was visiting a friend who is a pro luthier who uses LN planes for all of his planing. We were discussing the toothing blades that he had for a block plane and for his #5, and he was saying how there was a particular task which involved switching back and forth between using the #5 with the standard blade and with the toothing blade. He was saying how he would rather not have to swap out the blades so frequently, and that he was considering getting an Anant #4 to put the toothing blade in. So I don't think that it's just beginners buying the Anant planes, it seems that experienced plane users can also convince themselves that an Anant will work fine for them. One of the problems is that while flattening the sole is within reach for many users, correcting the fit of the frog, and any slop in the adjustment, is beyond what most of us can manage, unless we aspire to be machinists as well as woodworkers.
-Andy
Edited 6/26/2007 9:43 am ET by VTAndy_
I believe that under federal law denial of service by electronic means is a felony.
Hastings, how right you are but we have a few. The old Delta, Highland hardware, Ron Hock (plus most of the small tool makers) , and Lee Valley who should be teaching customer service.
I've bought an Anant plane myself. I've spent many hours trying to make it work as a plane. The only thing it has done with any degree of precision is weigh my papers down!!
JUNK !! Pure and simple !!
Barry in WV
How much are these Anant planes? ......I've looked on their website for pricing but came up with nothing..... are they more affordable to buy than an old Stanley on eBay?
Edited 6/26/2007 7:51 pm ET by mvflaim
The Anant planes are inexpensive when compared to Vertis (Lee Valley) or Lie-Nielson. They are comparable or less to used tools that can be bought on e-bay. Look for yourself at: http://www.woodzone.com/
Or another sites are:
http://www.diefenbacher.com/introduction.htm
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=659
I used the comments on Highland woodworking's site to justify buying the Anant Plough Plane.
It wan't good advise
SW
You get what you pay for, if it seems too good to be true... I guess all of these trueisms fall into place when it comes to ANANT. Return the plane and go purchase a good one.
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