Replies

1. 
   Locknut | Nov 01, 2005 09:35am | #1

   Given the high cost of wide belt sanders, I can appreciate your desire to build one yourself. The treadmill idea is intriguing, especially if you can obtain them for free. The feed belt will have to go slower than walking speed so there will have to be an adjustment made for that. I think the biggest difficulty will be keeping the belts aligned on the same plane (parallel) while still being able to adjust the height quickly and accurately. But I'm sure it can be done. Perhaps you could work out a system similar to a planer: the top unit rides up and down on 4 smooth posts, a vertical threaded rod is cranked to set the height and some sort of clamping lockdown mechanism on each post to hold it there. As you've already mentioned you'll probably need 4 height adjustment posts. It would simplify the adjustment process if they were all synchronized with chain and sprockets to keep things level. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested to see what you come up with. Be sure to post some photos of your progress along the way.

1. 
   GDH2 | Nov 01, 2005 06:41pm | #3

   Locknut -

   I don't think I would need a "clamping lockdown mechanism" because I think gravity plus the hundred pounds of weight for the top unit will keep it snugged firmly against whatever post system I am using. [Unless I am failing to understand the magnitude of the forces involved.]

   I planned on using height adjusting bolts with 16 threads per inch, so each crank adjusts the height by 1/16". Four sets of 16 turns (change from a 8/4 workpiece to a 4/4 workpiece) would get old if I did it often, but I would plan on skipping sprockets initially - too much work unless I've determined that my idea actually works.

   And of course I'd post if I try it and it works. Naturally I would want to brag about it!

   PS - assuming I actually get around to spending the hours to get this done - I have a working treadmill for the base, an unpowered Nordic Track treadmill for the top, and a 1/2 HP treadmill motor (plus numerous other motors available) for the top. But there are numerous hours to take this idea to the next stage. And I am asking for reactions in this forum to save my time if someone points out major problem(s) that I haven't considered.

2. 
   RickL | Nov 01, 2005 04:29pm | #2

   http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=924-006&LARGEVIEW=ON

   Here's a bit of a view of the insides of a widebelt sander.  There's a lot more to a widebelt sander than you could even begin to perceive by watching one on TV. With the imports there is no way you could make one cheaper than buying one. The Performax was the hobby woodworkers widebelt sander. I've been using widebelts for wood and even metal work, yes metal shops have widebelts as well, for over 30 years.  The belt on a widebelt oscillates from side to side about 1/4" by a pneumatic cylinder controlled by a photoelectric eye. The oscillation gives a nicer finish than a straight running belt. Between the lower drums is a platen with a graphite coated canvas with a felt backing pad. This allows the wood to go right to finishing. On a widebelt without the platen each piece must be sanded again with a random orbirt sander or linear scratches from the belt will result in a poor finish. Anyway there is a lot more involved in a widebelt than one can imagine. You might check out stroke sanders. There was an article in an old Fine WoodWorking Mag on making a simple one out of wood. Every large shop I worked in that had a widebelt had at least one stroke sander. The belts on a stroke sander are a lot cheaper and a stroke sander is very low tech and very affordable.

   http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=805-874

1. 
   GDH2 | Nov 01, 2005 06:41pm | #4

   Rick -

   Belt Sander

   Shipping weight over one TON! $10K - and I would bet that's a great price! Motorized height adjustment! Oscillation!

   Very, very cool! But surely oscillation is not found on the belt sanders under $2K? But, just as surely I can understand the terrific advantage.

   Stroke Sander

   Now you're presenting me with another sanding machine I need? [Kidding!] Only 800#? Belts that are 15' or 22' long?

   It looks like the belt twists 90 degrees as it runs under the platen and the platen is locked into a plane accross the 8' opening and the platen is then manually positioned (or stroked).

   How do you use it? Do you typically put the wood in with the grain parallel to the belt? Stroke back and forth and then move the stock 6" for the next stroke?

   I posed my question because I wanted to learn. You have educated me. Thank you very much.

1. 
   RickL | Nov 01, 2005 07:21pm | #5

   http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.aspx?itemnumber=G9983

   You need to do a lot more reading of catalogs.  I also recommend  Cabinetmaking and Millwork [by] John L. Feirer.  This book can be found in many libraries.  It's an old standard textbook of the trade schools so it has lots of basic industrial background.   He has info on stroke sanders and other interesting machines as well. I can't compress 35 years of woodworking and machine repair in a paragraph.

    There are a number of small widebelts that do indeed oscillate and even have the platen feature. Read the PDF manual and parts breakdown on the $3,000 Grizzly. Other companies such as Sunhill and a few others also offer such machines.

   Sanders under $2000 are drum sanders not widebelts. Are you sure you really need such a sander????  Such a sander is not a substitute for a planer.  The drum sander or even stroke sander is a viable option for the small shop, hobby woodworker.

   Reading and classes are just as much a tool as any machine. I'd be willing to bet there are a number of shops near you with a widebelt that might give you the nickel tour if you asked. No point in designing a tool on speculation and I doubt you could come close to making such a machine for anywhere near $3,000. For $3,000 you could set up a basic metal shop to make things.

   I had someone ask me to build and design a  special brushing machine and it would have cost me twice of what  was available off the shelf plus it was already designed and the mistakes were removed. Plus I have access to the metal working machines.  Widebelts have been around for 50 years or so.

    

   Edited 11/1/2005 12:23 pm ET by RickL

   Edited 11/1/2005 1:11 pm ET by RickL

1. 
   GDH2 | Nov 02, 2005 04:36am | #8

   Rick -

   I apologize for asking too much. I am leaping into manufacturing some child rockers (I bought all the pre-cut parts/templates/hardware/etc. for 400 chairs) and trying to learn a lot very quickly. I need to learn lots of hobbyist as well as industrial info as well as some business issues.

   I am quickly learning about the HUGE array of professional equipment designed for real industry. I have read a lot at WoodWeb, including business issues. I ran an auto repair shop for 10 years and sold management systems to auto repair shops for another 12 years so I have some experience with equipping & managing a T&M business. From the child rocker manufacturer (now defunct) I got an industrial pneumatic clamp table (jaws open range is 3" to 41" wide, weight about 600#) and a dual drum sander (drums 12" D and 12" W, I converted to single phase motor).

   I've been reading a book every week or two, lots of WW hobbyist magazines, setting up a shop, and trying at every turn to take shortcuts to learning and buying what I need.

   Thank you for your help - your information and links really were helpful. I really wish I could afford even the $3K Grizzly - the engineering and maintenance advantages really show even from my cursory reading of the manual.

2. 
   notDusty | Nov 07, 2005 06:26pm | #15

   GDH2 ,

             As far as how a stroke sander gets used ,, Typically they have a sliding table , it slides in and out .Yes , you place the material / table top / panel with the grain aligned with the length of the belt .There is a heavy flat Shoe that you manually press down on the back of the belt traveling over the material and move it to where you want to sand. Like any thing else there is a learning curve and much technic to learn. Rick has given much excellent info here and imo it is much more of a precise operation then you may believe . I'd hate to see you work on this thing for 4 months only to be un successful , I take  my wide belt sanding to a larger shop , and for $25 - $40 I can have all the panels and drawer faces sanded for a house or other good sized job .Sure It would be great to be able to sand it at my shop but I have no maintenance or loss of floor space or inventory of spare parts and belts.

               good     luck                dusty

                                    

1. 
   GDH2 | Nov 07, 2005 08:20pm | #17

   not Dusty - Thank you for the explanation. It confirmed some of my guesses and filled in some blank areas.
   Doug

3. 
   Bepperb | Nov 01, 2005 08:16pm | #6

   GDH2,

   I'd love a widebelt or widedrum sander too, and I'd love to do it myself.  The closest thing I can remember seeing is this: 8580.1.  I've often wondered if one couldn't modify an old thickness planer with a sanding drum.  I do think you might have more success moving stock past a drum with the sandpaper attached to it than a belt, at least it's less complex.  For now I take my stuff to a local hardwood supplier who will do this for a small fee.

1. 
   GDH2 | Nov 02, 2005 03:59am | #7

   What a SUPERB link - Thank you very much!

   Sadly the link for his parts is dead, but it sure is an impressive idea that would seemingly be pretty easy to build.

   Creativity - what a delight.

4. 
   charlesm | Nov 02, 2005 07:44pm | #9

   A quick search for "drum sander plans" on Google brought up this link at the top of the heap:
   http://www.moritzdesigns.com/sander/sander.html

   I have no affiliation or knowledge of how well it works or whether it's worth the money for the plans but they claim it can be made for under $100.

   HTH

   Charles M

   Freud America, Inc.

1. 
   RickL | Nov 02, 2005 09:21pm | #10

   Guitar and instrument makers have been making that sander for many years before the advent of the Performax, Kuster, etc. It's one of those things that just got handed down  from instrument maker to instrument maker because there was a need for such a machine in the price range (like almost nothing if you could scrounge a few parts). I would speculate Moritz took the time to try and market it for the homeshop guys who need a bit more to go by. I first saw one of these machines 30 something years ago and it was pretty exciting at the time. Being able to accurately thickness a guitar back and sides as easily as it did was a pretty amazing thing.

5. 
   WillGeorge | Nov 04, 2005 07:23pm | #11

   OK - I know I'm crazy! .. Me too Ya just gave me a IDEA!.. I NEVER thought of a tread mill! Good one...

   Now where can I find some heavy duty cylinders...?

6. 
   TTalma | Nov 04, 2005 09:56pm | #12

   I built my own awhile back the kind where you manually slide the wood under the drum. I found the drum and all parts easy to make.

   The problem I had was with the results I found unless you could move the parts under the drum at a very steady rate your results were not so good.

   I ended up just taking mine apart because I was never happy with it. I always felt the consistent movement from the feed belt was the key.

   I like your idea of the tread mill. Buty agree with other that the speed would need to be reduced.

   So I am very interested in how this comes out. I would be willing to offer any help I can.

   Making the drum was easy. I drilled a 5/8" hole in pices of 8 1/4" square MDF .

   Made a jig to make an 8" circle from the MDF on the bandsaw.

   I then epoxied the discs to the 5/8" rod and mounted a pully on the end.

   mounted the rod in place on the sander. I then glued some 80 grit sand paper to a piece of mdf as wide as the sander. and passed the borad with the glued on sandpaper under the drum while it was running.

   Doing this sanded the drum round and leveled it to the table in one action.

   keep us posted!

7. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 05, 2005 05:15am | #13

   "What grit works best in wide belt sanders?"

   We typically run abrasive in the range between 80- and 120-grit on both the finishing sander and the Performax we have at school.

   It'll be important to allow for minute adjustments on the order of 1/200" to achieve consistently desirable results. Dust collection and a high-quality platen will be very important.

   Good luck,

    

   -Jazzdogg-

   "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

8. 
   RickL | Nov 07, 2005 03:37pm | #14

   FWW #21 has  home made drum sander plans and FWW #23 has a article and plan on building a widebelt drum sander. Pretty simple and basic but with the imports sanders around there's no way you could make something better for less. With cheap machinery available through imports and auctions the only reason to build a machine is because you want to or it's something special that you need that isn't offered. I know guys with widebelts they bought used for as little as $1,500 for a 24" and stroke sanders can be found as low as scrap prices on occasion as many folks have no clue what they even are.  An old FWW had a simple home made strike sander as well. I'll look that up if interested. Many of the machines have been reprinted in the FWW machine booklets so it's still something available.

1. 
   GDH2 | Nov 07, 2005 08:05pm | #16

   I absolutely agree with "no way you could make something better for less" - IF I were buying all the materials new. In my case, I collect things that I am quite sure I can use for a particular project (and yes, my wife often wishes I were not so inclined). I already have:

   3 treadmills with good, wide rubber "treads" - free (one has already been canibalized and the frame discarded)

   8 3M sanding belts 26" wide (about 8' long) for about $20 on eBay

   hospital bed head & foot boards with crank for raising/lowering (free)

   several free motors (2 from the treadmills)

   So there's enough junk there to experiment building a wide sander with a long lower belt for feeding the stock, a long belt sander on top, and a mechanism for easily adjusting the height of the top "rack" .

   The psychological issues are also significant for me:

   I enjoy real recycling, and I really dislike seeing items like the above being thrown away.

   This extends beyond "re-invention" projects - my car has over 200K

   Most of my shop tools are used - my TS, BS, big drum sander, small belt sander, drill press, shaper, lathe, etc.

   I have severe adult ADD and really enjoy the initial learning, figuring out, and planning.

   My record of completing tasks to functionality is so/so

   My record of compleing all the final details is quite poor.

   Wow - I guess my hour of psychoanalysis is up! Goodbye.

   And thank you very much for your contribution to my education.