Replies

1. 
   flairwoodworks | Jul 05, 2009 07:13pm | #1

   Is your glass flat?

   Chris @ www.flairwoodworks.com
   and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)

    - Success is not the key to happiness.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

1. 
   timestamps | Jul 06, 2009 02:21am | #2

   Yes...but my bench is not level!

1. 
   roc | Jul 06, 2009 04:55am | #3

   Please be careful; we don't want to start a stampede. Everybody just take a deep breath.This is what is needed to check for flat ( see photo ) it is a surface plate. A chunk of glass may not be flat.I just went to the shop for a little research. I put this stone http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=63on the surface plate. Not a hint of rocking or gap between stone and surface plate.Then I tried this stonehttp://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1582Again not a hint of rocking or gap between stone and surface plate ! ! !I use the latter to flatten thishttp://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01%2E090&dept_id=13122The pink stone with the slots I use for flattening my other stones because the deep slots allow the slurry a place to go rather than build up on the diamond plates.For those who think sharpening stuff is cheep we are up to about three hundred dollars, not including the surface plate to check the diamond stones, and we have hardly begun.Maybe it would be a good idea to at least put your glass on one of those cheepo black surface plates at Woodcraft etc just for a second opinion.The pink stone with the deep slots seen in the third link above did not come flat, so be ware, but was easy enough to flatten on the diamond plate.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

   Edited 7/5/2009 9:59 pm by roc

   
1. 
   9619 | Jul 06, 2009 01:39pm | #4

   Roc,Are you being careful enough about having a flat surface. I saw the photo of your dial indicator on your surface plate. However you never said how often you calibrate your dial indicator. Those things can stick if not properly calibrated and if not kept in a dust free environment. Also, people never check to see if the markings on the dial are exact. With the proper laser equipment, these checks can easily be made. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   MichaelRedmond | Jul 06, 2009 01:46pm | #5

   Where does it end?

2. 
   9619 | Jul 06, 2009 02:08pm | #6

   Michael,You asked, "Where does it end?" That is exactly the point that I was making. One can go too far in looking for perfection in tools when what you are after is making really good furniture. Tools should be "good enough" to do the job. One doesn't need a Lamborghini to go to the store and buy a gallon of milk. And if one spends all of one's time tuning up the Lamborghini, one never gets to drive it. Enough is enough. One can spend all of one's time in the shop making jigs and checking the perfection of the surfaces of ones power tools, and the sharpness of ones blades, and lubricating moving parts, and making sure the air cleaners are emptied out. And in doing this, one can lose sight of the original goal of doing woodwork. It is a matter of BALANCE. One needs sharp tools, and one needs tools that work well, but one can become obsessive-compulsive in such matters, and lose sight of making furniture as the goal. Professional woodworkers never have such problems. They need to make money, so they tend to focus on the most important things. You will easily notice how some hobbyists here on Knots get wrapped up in the details of details. Have you noticed the thread on Holtey planes? My God, why would anyone spend $10,000 on a hand plane, even if one was a Billionaire. For Heavens Sakes, get a nice Lie Nielsen and donate your excess money to charity. I was thinking of doing a humorous article on "How to fettle Holtey planes to get the most out of them." I have been joking for years about the need to buy an electron microscope to really check the sharpness of your tools. If you notice people like Ray Pine, he makes some of the most beautiful Chippendale furniture in the world. So how does he sharpen his plane irons. He usually goes as far as a Soft Arkansas stone. Others here on Knots need to go to 16,000 and 30,000 grit waterstones. Of course, they are not really woodworkers, they are "tool afficianados". Have fun. Stay sane.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

3. 
   MichaelRedmond | Jul 06, 2009 02:39pm | #8

   Hi Mel,
   When I first started out I fell into the sharpening trap and one day my girlfriend came into the shop and stood for a while watching me sharpen and flatten and said when do you make stuff, that was enough for me.
   Regards
   Michael

4. 
   9619 | Jul 06, 2009 04:55pm | #9

   Michael,

   Glad you survived the sharpening trap.  Many don't. 

   Have fun,

   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

5. 
   AdamCherubini | Jul 06, 2009 07:52pm | #10

   Not every tool needs to be super sharp.  Some tools get dull so quickly, that a razor edge can't even be maintained for a minute.  A hatchet might be an example.  Or a jack plane.  But chisels, especially carving tools, and smooth planes really need to be super sharp to perform well.  When you ask real experts, like Deneb from LN, he'll say that a really sharp blade is largely responsible for eliminating tear out and giving you a smooth finish.  And that's been my experience.  Seasoned vets sharpen frequently (hourly even).

   Flat:

   I argue that plane blades and chisels don't need flat backs (or bevels) to function.  I go as far as to suggest non-flat backs (and bevels) can actually improve performance. The problem with non-flat blacks is maintaining a polish.  If your 600 grit stone is dished and it rounds off your back, when you get to your polishing stone (be it 1000 grit or whatever) and it is flatter than  the 600, you won't touch the cutting edge in a minute or an hour of honing without lifting the iron and creating a back bevel. 

   What to do:

   If you know how your stone is dished, you can still use it to flatten.  You just have to make sure you are always sitting on the high spots.  If you don't want to do this, you can just lift your plane blade a little on the polishing stones.  There's no downside to this except that you can lose track of your bevel angle. You might need to hone a lower bevel angle to account for this.  You can also polish using a strop.  Stepping through mutliple stones on a back isn't always a great idea.  You can hone just the bevel, (in which case flatness of the stone doesn't matter) then strop off the wire edge.  At very least, once you flatten a tool's back, you may never go back to 600 grit stones on that tool's back again.  Just polish off the wire edge (however you wish) and move on. 

   If you are restoring tools or preparing new tools that aren't in great shape "out of the box", then I recommend a surface plate and sand paper.  And I have one and I've done that, but I don't use it for everyday sharpening.  I use coarse diamond plates from DMT for flattening stones.  I've refined the flatness of finer grit stones on my surface plate. 

   Adam 

6. 
   timestamps | Jul 07, 2009 02:23pm | #12

   Thanks for being a bit closer to answering my question. I have been using that diamond stone to LAP my chisels and block plane and was coming across just that issue that Adam brings to the table, where my first polishing stage was getting mucked up by these stones. One does need at least one stone that is true flat as a reference point for all other stones. Indeed water stones can be flattened easily with grit or paper on a piece of plate glass ( incidentally, all my three TEST pieces yielded the same results both in my shop and at the Lee Valley outlet ) I do also own a 3/8 steel diamond plate ( 1200x ) that was also being tested on those same pieces of glass and it is indeed flat. The problem I've encountered is with the DMT composite backed diamond stones and was wondering if there were other folks out there encountering the same issues.
   Yes my AMC Pacer will get me to the store just the same as the Lamborghini...but if the Lamborghini is delivered to you with a bent axle straight from the dealership, would you still drive it around to the store to get yourself some Popeye smokes?
   So...has anyone else encountered flatness problems with DMT composite stones?

7. 
   boilerbay | Jul 11, 2009 04:29pm | #15

   "So...has anyone else encountered flatness problems with DMT composite stones?"
   And Nortons and just about all at one time or another.Yes, as measured on 3/4 inch float glass (not plate) which matched a Starrett surface plate. They are not so far out that they can't be used to remove serious dish and serious dish is just that. Most dishing on a stone is not that serious as to worry about flattness on an hour to hour basis. Some here flatten after each tool. Can't see it.

   For me, no biggy as the variation from coarse stone "A" transmitted down through ultra-ultra stone X is minimal since I use just hand guiding after the original one time use of hone guide (and then just on smoother blades, not chisels). A F##t here on a stroke and a callous bump there doesn't affect my sharpness enough to worry over it, rather than get back to the job at hand - the wood.I agree it is a cause of limited concern, especially in light of how much real tool value can be thrown away in chasing stones but it would seem, in practical use, there comes a time to stop measuring in angstroms and get back to inches.Watch'in glue dry on the coast.BBedit: spelling

   Edited 7/11/2009 9:32 am by boilerbay

8. 
   boilerbay | Jul 11, 2009 04:36pm | #16

   I would like to try (not buy) one dem der 15-16K Shapton thingies though. Give Adam his due and most other here also, da sharper da better.

9. 
   roc | Jul 07, 2009 05:01am | #11

   yesrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

2. 
   plumo | Jul 06, 2009 02:24pm | #7

   Just purchased the 8" Blue / Green DMT from Lee Valley. Just gave it the "plate glass test" and it passes with not a wiggle. I'll have to take it to work tomorrow and put it on my CMM and map out the entire surface (or is this overkill??).
   Agreed, the glass my not be "flat", or maybe the stones aren't. The only way is to reference back to something that is FLAT. The surface plate is ideal and the indicator will measure the error if used correctly. Or a set of feelers works nicely for minimal cost.
   Perhaps there is something else causing the stones in question to go out of flat? Support of "thing to be flat" are typically restricted to only 3 points of support to prevent twisting. Storage issues? Sunlight/excessive heat on one area of the stone?

   Definitely not something to start a stampede over but worth asking questions and forming a proper understanding of. DMT claims a tight flatness tolerance. These tools directly affect subsequent processes and any errors would need to be identified.

   Perhaps the simplest method to flatten things should be used? 2 stones of equal grit face to face and rub till flat. Might just cost less in the long run as you would have 2 sets of flat stones! Just not as fast.

   On the other hand, would woodworkers of years gone by be that concerned about the perfect flatness of a stone or the net result on the cutting edge?

   Cheers,

3. 
   RickL | Jul 10, 2009 09:16pm | #13

   http://www.eze-lap.com/index.html
   http://www.eze-lap.com/product/2x11ds.htm

   I've been buying these for our commercial shop..."the surface will remain true and flat."
   The original link was to the home page. I figured one could go to the product one wanted to compare...

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/11/2009 8:26 pm ET by RickL

1. 
   roc | Jul 11, 2009 05:09am | #14

   ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

2. 
   7Joel | Jul 13, 2009 01:30am | #17

   How have the EZ laps been lasting? I had one and it seemed not to last as long as the DMT version.

1. 
   RickL | Jul 13, 2009 02:55pm | #21

   Unless one does a one to one test it's hard to say which lasts longer. We have a few of the EZE Laps in the metal plate version which are perfectly flat and we use them in a commercial shop and our guys won't settle for second best.

3. 
   stillfigurinitout | Jul 13, 2009 02:45am | #18

   Thanks for the link.  Would you happen to know the equivalent waterstone grit to a 1200 grit diamond stone.  I've heard it's something like 4000 or 8000 but not sure.  Thanks

1. 
   derekcohen | Jul 13, 2009 04:00am | #19

   A 1200 ("extra fine") diamond stone is 9 microns. The closest waterstone to this is one that is 1500 grit.

   An observation is that their scratch patterns are likely to be different, with the diamond more consistent, and that this will translate into a shinier surface with the diamond plate. In other words, the resulting degree of extra shine does not mean that it is sharper.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   stillfigurinitout | Jul 13, 2009 08:51am | #20

   Thanks Derek.  I was way off on that rumor!