Having now joined the FOA (Festool Owner’s Association, LOL) I thought I’d make a comment or two.
The item – C12 drill, 12-V NiMH battery
- It came with both batteries charged and ready to work
- I love just listening to it run, LOL
- I’ve already used the ‘off-set’ drive gizmo, very nice
- They are as bad as US – their hex drive measures .246+” ( 6.25mm ) vs ‘our’ .252+” Their hex fits nicely in ours, but not vice-versa. .006″ Crazy.
- Thankfully, the hex adapter included with the kit accepts ‘our’ hex bits.
- The storage box is much, much better than the run-of-mill blow molded stuff, but why does one have to carry it in from the awkward ‘fat’ dimension rather than the skinny one.
Replies
Ed,
Yes, you can mention the Festool name here. Just because some have a problem with paying for quality tools, doesn't mean that we all do.
Thanks for the review. That's a tool on my "need to buy" list. As soon as I recover from all the tool purchases I've made this year I'll be buying a new drill/driver. I haven't looked at the Festool drills, but I've read a lot of good things about them as well as all the Festool line. I appreciate the additional input.
As far as I am concerned, Festool is the best tool manufacturer out there for what they make. I believe in buying things once. I buy the best I can afford when I can. I have the same drill and the eccentric (offset) head alone was worth the $589 for the kit. I agree with you about the handle orientation.
Last night the brown truck dropped off the smaller Festool circular saw, and a dust extractor. This is my 1st Festool purchase. I cried once.. I hope that's it.
Here's another cool thing. Yes, I know that there are other ways to accomplish same, but I don't have them.
Today I was both drilling holes and driving screws. In the olden days ;-) I would chuck the bit, drill the hole, unchuck the bit, insert screwdriver bit, drive screw, remove screwdriver bit, etc, etc.
With the Festool I put appropriate bit in the chuck, drilled the hole, removed the chuck, put the 'concentric' (or whatever the heck they call it) bit on and fitted the screw driver bit, screwed in the screw, removed the concentric chuck and screwdriver, replaced with the regular chuck, etc, etc. (Just so you don't think I'm totally stupid, this thing was over my head, so getting a couple of holes and screws into them was handy.)
I bought the larger circular saw last year, along with two guide rails, and the kit that allows you to attach the two rails together for ripping sheet goods longer than 8'.This is an amazing took, and has added another ten years to my career as a sometime traveling carpenter. After a career of thirty-five years doing remodeling for discerning clientele, I became convinced that there was no way to do even small remodels without an assemblage of shop-quality portable power tools.These included the ubiquitous job-site table saw, the bench-top jointer, the 12" thickness planer, and a decent sliding, compound-bevel, miter saw (either the big Bosch, or the DeWalt 705).Now that I'm on the backside of 50, I'm less and less excited about the prospect of loading/unloading these behemoths from the 3 1/2' elevation of my pickup bed. It's just way too much work, and any tool that can be eliminated from that part of my routine constitutes a welcome improvement in my work-day.There are very few things that a job-site table saw will do that the Festool plunge saw can't to as well or better: There's one proviso, however, and that is that the tool needs to be accompanied by a very simple-to-make (and transport!) collapsible table.There are several videos (on this site) that demonstrate the construction of this sort of table; it's intended to provide a rock-solid support surface for heavy sheet-goods, and it's both light, easy to set up and knock down, and also impervious to theft (who'd bother stealing it) on the job-site.I've made several of these tables over the years, but have also just knocked the panels out of old F-66 six panel doors, and attached folding legs (with butt hinges) to improvise effective, cheap, work-site tables.The Festool plunge-saw, alone, is (to my mind) a "one-legged paper-hanger," but -- with its accompanying table -- it's a world beater.An additional benefit -- apart from ease of use and ease of transport -- is the lack of mess you have to deal with after making a half-dozen cuts (ripping sheet-goods, trimming doors, etc.) The accompanying Festool dust extraction system ("shop vac") is of amazingly high quality, and virtually eliminates the need for post-work cleanup. By contrast, after using my Rousseau/Makita combination table-saw setup, there's always at least a half-hour of post work cleanup, with dustpan, broom, and sore back. Unwelcome at the end of a long work-day.I received my Festool "Domino," several weeks ago, and -- as with all of Festool's powered hand tool line -- it's a high quality tool that plugs happily into my vacuum and leaves a virtually dust-free envelope when the day's work is done.Festool tools are probably 20-30% more expensive than their competitors' offerings, but somebody's gotta pay for that engineering, and it might as well be the people whose lives have been simplified, whose backs have been saved, and whose productivity has been increased.
Great testimonial for Festool. Are you sure that you can 30 minutes a day on clean-up? If this is true, it will not take long to recover the extra cost. Thanks for your comments.Ray
"Thirty minutes" is the "worst case scenario," too, when I think about it.Setting up and cutting a door, for instance, requires cleanup when you use a conventional circular saw. For years, I'd whip out my DeWalt and my level, score a line across the door's bottom rail, clamp up the level (tape the shoe of the saw) and make the cut. Dust would fly everywhere, and -- while the set-up and cut took ten minutes -- the clean up would easily double that time expenditure.With the Festool, you plug in the vac, plug the saw into the vac's outlet, select "auto" with the power dial, and make your cut using the Festool guide rail. There's no time spent pre-scoring the door, because there's a "zero-clearance" mating of blade and guide-rail, thus no tear-out when the cut is made.Similarly, no need to tape of the door or the bottom of the saw's shoe, because the saw never comes into contact with the door: It glides over it and slides in the guide-rail, instead.As soon as you energize the saw, the vac starts itself up and removes 99.9% of any dust created. There is always a tiny amount of dust, and it's typically directly under the cut edge of the door. One swipe with a damp rag, and you're done.
I know what you are saying about cutting down a door. Done it many times.
Again, thanks for your reply.Ray
Edited 4/27/2007 4:27 pm by Railyn
Would you mind posting a photo of your knock down table that you use on the job site? Or, post a link to one of the videos showing typical construction?Thanks, Tom.
Check this out: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=2659
Thanks for the lead. The folding table is a good idea.
Tom.
You're welcome.Here's a link to a video that my be helpful.http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=24033
Here's the video (by Gary Williams for FWW) that shows the bench I have in my shop...http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/Workshop/WorkshopArticle.aspx?id=5279
thanks again! I have used sheets of polystyrene foam, laid flat on the driveway, for a similar purpose. But I have to bend over or work on my knees, so this could be much better.
The EZ people sell another kind of table:http://www.eurekazone.com/products/detail/smarttable.htmlThis table has the advantage of breaking into smaller pieces for transport, but unlike the Williams table, you cannot tip it, lean your ply sheet against the table, the lift the whole thing up. Still another alternative is a pair of low saw horses, with three 8' 2X4's half lapped into the top of each horse (which measures 20" high, 48" long). With this arrangement, you can bring the long edge of your ply to the edge, and flip it up and onto the horses with a panel carrier.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Ed, Hope you are back to feeling super. That kind of giddy yet queasy feeling you got when you picked up your new Festool should now have passed. You should be feeling great almost invincible.
If it has not passed you might want to contact "Ira Levin Associates" the small Connecticut firm that produces Festool's proprietary nano technology. They will be super happy to make any adjustments.
The nanites themselves are Festool green and may yet be visible in translucent parts of your body, they usually show up as tiny green flecks under your skin, fingernails or in your eyes. Try shining a bright light thru your palm in a dark room and look at the cool glow.
If you find yourself in room full of Festool owners and you suddenly feel like singing, well go ahead. Start up a round of "Hail to the Festool". You will find that you already know the words. Keep practicing
using your " Festool guide to superlative phrases ". Just close your eyes it will suddenly pop into view.
Well thats all, I gotta run. Just got a sudden urge to go smack my best friend in the mouth. I don't know why, but Dino is gonna get it.
Your friend in Festool
Brian
P.S. Everyone, you will be assimilated.
Failed already! One does NOT carry the case by the wider dimension, ones man carries such items as might be required, accompanied of course by the usual team of discreet security personel disguised as working plebians.
I use Panasonic with full satisfaction, but then I don't feel lonely.
Go ahead Mufti, make the leap to Festool. You know that you want to.
Remember, Festo have been in the U.K. for many years. I had a drill, lost it and switched to Panasonic. I have:-
Sander RO150E-Plus. Can be too hot to handle, muscles essential and sheds plattens but good for image.
Saw ATF 55EB. I love it but have modified it to stay plunged at varying depths when I choose.
Jig saw PS300-EQ-Plus, Barrel hold. Excellent if you know how to adjust the blade guide. This tool sickened me with the German company since they did not reply to various E-Mails, (not even to tell me to get lost), despite best endevours by the U.K. agent.
Linear sander LS 130 EQ-Plus. I really like this.
Router OF 900E. Had it some years and for its size it is excellent.
Mains power is of course 240 volt, and I try to drool over what I can accommodate. Thus I have two radial arm saws, one small , one bigger, so whilst the new Festool chop saw looks good, I will not be asking Santa to bring one.
Mufti trying to be reasonable.
Hi Multi,
How do you adjust the blade guides on the Festool Trion barrel handle jigsaw?I just bought one and notice that the guide contacts one side of the blade but as you adjust the screw it pushes the blade sideways. Naturally I'm not over tightening to guides but I do see lots of wear on only one side of every blade.Thanks
Easy, but do not listen to my dark side, I am a singular mufti, not a multi mufti.
If you only use Festool blades, and if they are all the same gauge, and if you always use the same pendulum setting, and if it has been set up properly in the first place, then you do not need to adjust it. However:-
slacken the pinching nut AND just slacken by a fraction the bolt holding the guide to the body so the whole thing can move a little. Fit the blade, decide the pendulum setting if to be used and pull the blade up and down to leave it in the back position if using the pendulum. If not, just fit the blade.
Snug up the blade clamp to allow minimal clearance, the clamp itself is floating whilst you do this.
Finally, tighten the clamp to the body of the saw, making sure it does not move sideways whilst you do this. It could do so since the fixing hole is slotted!
The saw should now perform very well, but you may have to do this every time you change a blade if you wish to use the guide to the full.
Best wishes, mono mufti
Edited 5/2/2007 12:09 pm ET by mufti
I've had that saw for 2-3 years, and didn't even know about adjusting the blade guides.What is going on that leads you to want to make some adjustment?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Further to my last on this subject, I have today purchased a HL850 EB+ planer and systainer which seems rather nice. I can use the rebate facility, and at £185 including taxes it may be worth a go. Thats about $370 now, and 240 volts of course.
I do hope you enjoy these tools. I'll not poke fun by calling you a Festool Stepford wife if you'll promise to avoid making the long rosy posts that so many Festool owners do. (see post #6 in this thread).
Cheers.
Cases are carried from the top or fat end because It'd be near impossible to carry from the skinny end when a few were nested together. The system assumes you'll be attaching a few together, not carrying each seperatly one at a time. When you reach Sys4 or 5 the things are cubes or even larger in the "skinny " dimension, so it would ruin the nestability of all. There would need to be seperate part #'s for each lid instead of 1.
There is an unassumbale assumption there - that I can afford to purchase another one of these babies, LOL. Clever design would enable both orientations.
Many feel it is clever already. How many other hand tool cases allow you to carry from both orientations? How many let you assemble mulitples? How many can you get spare parts for if you should break something?
I know it's a big point of contention around here that these things are expensive compared on purchase price alone to other brands, but I don't think Festool's mind set is to make a tool affordable to the mass market. The mere fact that there aren't a dozen threads about Dewalt, or Milwaulkee, ect.. drills, routers ect... should tell you something. This is not a rap on those brands or an endorsement of Festool, but it's a nasty cycle. Make tools that cost x so we can move 2453426258672 bazillion units and quality, reputation, and then r&d will soon suffer. Dewalt came on the market a few years ago with a great cache, really good products and then got crunched by the quant jocks into a market share kind of division. They aren't gone yet, as the still produce some winners like the jobsite tablesaw and 735 planer. Their mitre saws and battery drills/tools go downhill with each successive generation though.
Festool makes better tools with each new generation: Witness their TS saws with many improvements over the ATF, and the drill that you bought. They don't look at how to bring a new model that costs the same or less $$$, only a better one. The price will be enough to continue them to make a profit and keep comming up with better stuff. They are less focused on the qtr's or years #'s so mgmt. can make a few bucks before the next job.
I am uncertain what you mean by "They are less focused on the qtr's or years #'s so mgmt. can make a few bucks before the next job."
I bet they are certainly focused on the numbers. From their company longevity and marketplace presence, they are masters at making a profit. I am certain they know their market niche. I would think they have a goal to add x new Festool owners each year. The evidence is here. I am watching new distributors added. A Garrett Wade tech rep said they will be a distributor by May.
I also bet those who are current owners do not abandon them quickly. I am a new owner this year and already want to add other tools as my DW and PC wear out.
I hope their management philosophy remains solid and they don't go the way of Makita, DeWalt, et. al. by attempting to create weekend warrior tools at the expense of a marketplace dominant quality product.
Festool is an example of the old addage:Good, Fast, Cheap ... Choose any two!
I mean that they , and most European companies do not focus on the short term like their American counterparts. They are more long term players. I was infering that this is because many high level ex pay in the U.S. is tied to short term performance or stock price and that there is a far higher percentage of turnover of mgmt teams in U.S. companies because of this.
I find all this interesting readings, since yesterday I received a call from the Dewalt ser. center informing me that my little over a year old router needed up to $150 in parts. this router has less than 5 hours and no dust or scraches on it, which I informed them. Wish I could do that with our clients. Oh well no more Dewalt purchases for me. I picked up a pair of Frestool sanders last week. Love them.
Irontoys
Your story about the Dewalt router is one of the reasons I think many are moving to Festool. I think they (we) hope the high price will bring durability; the problem is, they haven't been in the US market long enough yet to judge. So far so good, though.........********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Ed,
You might want to think of yourself as a Festool Breader. I swear I only purchaced two and just look what happened. . . . .
I like a man who lacks self control!Frosty
Ed, the proof of the pudding will come later-when you have found how long it can go between charges, how long it can hold a charge and if there is any difference between the two batteries.And is there a decent chuck on it?
I used to like the yellow things, but the new ones are nothing like the old ones.
LOL, it came charged, and I've not even switched batteries yet. (I got the NMH batteries)
When using a screwdriver bit with the 'concentric' chuck one 'complaint' I have is that one can't simply turn the chuck to align the screwdrive with the slot (I was using it on straight slot screws), one has to turn the whole drill, a bit awkward.
The regular chuck seems fine, I've used it with both round drill bits and hex-ended ones. The trigger is of sufficient size to get two fingers on it - not as nice as a Milwaukee in that respect.
I spoke with Festool about the battery capacity and run time. I was going to purchase one primarily for driving screws in cabinet work (and pilot holes as req'd). With the smallest battery, they estimate it will drive screws for 25-30 minutes continuous use. I would not be using it continuously for 25-30 minutes. The drill/driver comes with an extra battery and a charger. It takes 25 minutes to charge a battery. So the C12-1.3mAH with two batteries is more than adequate for me and I would guess for most of us since one usually does not drive screws continuously for an extended time. I am going choose it because it is lighter with the lower capacity battery.
Edited 5/5/2007 1:00 pm ET by Cincinnati
One thing that many people don't factor into their decision on which cordless drill to buy is the cost of the replacement battery. I have Panasonic 15.6v, and the bloody replacement batteries are now up to about $90.I use mine pretty hard, but they gradually go south after about 3 years, and are generally pretty useless by the time they reach 4 years.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I agree with NIKKIWOOD, the cost of a new battery can exceed the cost of buying an entire new drill/driver. That is why I stopped buying DeWalt and some others. The Panasonic replacements have, to this point, been cheaper than replacing the drill. I've looked at the Festool drill and I've used one that I borrowed from a finish carp friend. It handles nicely, is light, has power, but the drill and the replacement batteries are costly. I've got a couple of Festool sanders and have been very pleased with them, however, I don't need dust collection on a drill, so I've resisted the urge to go to the Festool drill.
The cost of battery replacement is a problem with all the cordless tools, not just Dewalt.That why when you look at the cost of two new batteries and then see a kit for $30 more (which will include the drill, charger, and hte 2 batteries), you just go ahead and buy the whole shebang. But eventually, you accumulate more drills/chargers than you will ever use in your lifetime, and you have to start buying just the battery replacement. And that's where I'm at. However, I understand that battery replacement is part of the lifetime guarantee offered on Ridgid tools.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Regarding replacement batteries, a local battery outlet near me has offered to cut apart the battery packs for my 12v Makita drill motor and replace the batteries with ones they supply. They claim the amp hour ratings are superior to the originals, and the price was about $30, as opposed to about $55 for the official Makita battery.
I didn't take them up on their offer, as the gears on the drill motor stripped and I purchased an entire new kit. But it might be something to check into if you've got a store like this in your area.
Zolton
There are any number of places (Batteries Plus) and online services (Voltman) that will rebuild batteries. But it seems to depend on the the type of battery as to whether or not it will be less expensive than buying new. In my case, the Panasonics are NiMh 15.6v, 3.5 amp hrs, and there is not much differential between the rebuild/new cost.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Re the lifetime guarantee, be sure that you don't throw the box away, as I did, before sitting down to fill out the paperwork. You need something off the box it came in to complete your application, or (they say) it will not be accepted.
I don't blame anyone other than myself - should have read the fine print before throwing stuff away.
Mike D
I haven't bought any Ridgid tools, but I have heard they make you jump through some hoops to sign up for the guarantee.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
So now that I've got some more time with this baby:
Driving screws with the 'concentric' chuck gizmo is nifty
Like I mentioned before, it's really pretty cool to pop of the one chuck and replace it with the other
But I seem to be having trouble chucking bits in the regular 3-jaw chuck. I can't seem to hold them in the center, they end up stuck between two of the three jaws. Is this some kind of inverse gravitational field?
It still sounds cool, and I've not yet had to charge the battery. With my ancient 9.6 Makita (with new batteries) I'd have charged them twice.
I'm uncertain about the handle, but it does sit nicely on its battery, and feels very comfortable in my hand.
Have the exact same problem trying to chuck bits into that drill..other than that its a sweet piece of machinery...although I still use the 18v Makita more often...also a sweeet, well balanced tool. Jimmy
Ed, Jimmy,Same here. It does take a bit of a knack to get the bits just right. Now if they would just come out with an impact driver. . .http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
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Pretty cool. I know the little Sioux drill would probably do this job, too.
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