With sources like “shellac.net” and Wood Finish Supply gone belly-up, do we need another source for shellac flakes? I’m looking for a side business to augment my woodworking, and I’m wondering if there is a market for another mail order supplier ( beyond Jeff Jewett and a few others ). What are your thoughts? How many of you can use another supplier of high quality flakes at reasonable prices with just a one lb. minimum order?
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Depends on the quality.
I purchased 5 lbs of "Blonde" Hock flakes at a discounted rate @$14.00/lb.
They dont dissolve as well as the flake I used to get from the folks at Shellac.net or Homestead. And seems a little softer than the others.
Homestead finishing has a decent price for a consistent product. And pretty good customer service.
I think if you could get a good quality product and sell it at a better price than the others, you would do well.
The folks at Shellac.net had such great prices and the product to go with it as well. I wish they were still around.
I just use Homestead now. Jeff Jewitt has a very good selection of product plus the knowledge and service to back it up. Not a bad deal for a few dollars more.
J.P.
JP<
Why disolve your own flakes?
I'm asking since it never made sense to me..
I buy three poind cut zinzzlers shellac for $22.00 gallon.. at Home depot.. that's three pounds of flakes and nearly a gallon of alcohol for only $22.00
An unopened can was absolutely fine after sitting in my shop for over three years. I usually use up opened cans inside of six months and have never had an issue with them..
They charge $13.00 a gallon for denatured alcohol so according to your numbers I got $66.00 worth of flakes and about $10.00 worth of denatured alcohol for only $22.00. another words I saved $54.00 a gallon buying premixed.. what am I figuring wrong?
the shelf life of shellac...
always a factor.Expert since 10 am.
jackplane,
shelf life?
Hmm three years in the case of unopened cans and six months if I close the lid completely.
I always splash a little more denatured alcohol into the can, I've never found a point where it's gotten too thin to work.. Maybe that's why it's not an issue, the denatured alcohol evaporates and causes problems not the shellac?
The reason is when I stripped my old piano of the old shellac the rags got pretty darn stiff as the alcohol evaporated in spite of the shellac being over 70 years old at that point.
frenchy,
I had the experience once, of shellacing a corner cabinet, a large one. Brushed on the first coat, and sanded the nibs, brushed on two more coats. It never got hard enough to rub out. It seemed "dry", but if you laid your hand- or a piece of steel wool- on it, it would soften up enough to feel tacky. Royal pain washing all that stuff out of a corner cabinet, even with the backing off. Then there were the chairs that you stuck to, if you sat still for more than 10 mins.... The backs looked like they had flannel jackets on...
Regards,
Ray
Ray, You misread the jar. It didn't say shellac. It said taffy! Rich
Rich,
Funny, it didn't taste like taffy...More like a really thick manhattan.
Ray
joinerswork,
It sounds like the light ends of the alcohol evaporated, you could have simply washed all the gummy shellac off (using denatured alcohol) and using some fresh denatured alcohol "fixed" things..
I've also seen that happen when paint thinner was used instead of denatured alcohol..
frenchy, I don't think so. The problem wasn't bad denatured alcohol. It was old (out-dated) shellac, which shouldn't have been used to begin with. Rich
Edited 1/15/2007 9:26 pm ET by Rich14
Rich14
I don't have enough experiance to dismiss your claim, I have shellaced with old out dated cans of shellac without any issue, I suspect it's as I claim because over time the light ends of the alcohol chain evaporate laving gummy stuff behind. Fresh new (and lots of ) denatured alcohol dilutes the problem..
IF you take a 70 year old piano which was shellaced, wiping the flakes off should produce the gummy situation you refer to.. IT didn't! The shellac dried nice and stiff on the rags and I believe if I had disolved those rags in a vat of denatured alcohol I could have reused the flakes..
I am willing to bet more than a few people have also used paint thinner instead of denatured alcohol with similar results.. Not everybody reads the instructions.. <G>
I think the more likely problem that effects old shellac is "esterfication" where there is a chemical reaction over a long time that changes some parts of the shellac into ester's that don't remain gummy. This happens faster in liquid form, but can happen to dry shellac as well.
The problem with old alcohol is not so much what evaporates, but what it gains. Alcohol will pick up water from the air over time. Too much water will hurt the shellac.
(By the way this can be a big problem for marine uses of gasoline with added alcohol. While fuel only lasts a few days in cars--it can stay in the tank for weeks in a boat.)
It's me The one who started all this.
The information has been helpful. It seems that a lot of folks are more than happy with the premixed stuff. For the rest, it seems a mixed bag.
Other questions:
What do you mean by customer service when buying shellac flakes? Prompt shipping? Fair return policy? Good tech support?
Obviously quality is a must, but if a supplier was say, a few dollars cheaper per unit, would you consider trying them ?
I appreciate your input.
frenchy,
After wasting all the time it took to apply finish to a large corner cupboard, then washing it down, do you really think I'd risk doctoring up that stale shellac with fresh alcohol, and trying it again? I didn't make wages on that job as it was. That was when I started mixing my own. Oh, and making sample swatches using the same batch of finish as on the real thing.
Regards,
Ray
joinerswork.
I certainly understand your reluctance to "try again" IN effect though you did "try again" to remove that shellac you must of used denatured alcohol to wipe it off didn't you? Please tell me you didn't try to sand off gummy shellac!
If you had use denatured alcohol surely you noticed the rag got stiff didn't you?
frenchy,
When I cleaned off the cupboard that seemed dry but wasn't hard enough to rub out,I did wash off the shellac. I did not notice if the dried, stiff rags ever got hard enough to rub out.
I'm glad you have never had the experience of stale shellac not getting completely hard. Doesn't mean it never happens, just that some people have all the luck. And in the 70 yr old shellac piano finish you've referred to, the shellac wasn't in solution for 70 yrs, was it?
Regards,
Ray
joinerswork,
<G> No
However I have used 4 year old premixed shellac with no problem..
If flakes are not disolved how long will they last? I'm pretty sure there is no shelf life on them. I checked and there isn't a date code that I could see..
I do know that if you leave a can slightly open there comes a point where the stuff is pretty gummy. However splashing some fresh denatured alcohol into it has always worked for me..
frenchy,
Yah the dry flakes have an indefinite (maybe infinite) shelf life as far as I know. And the dewaxed stuff from Zinsser has a 3 yr expiration. Maybe less for non-de-waxed. I seem to remember reading something about esterification, whatever that is, causing the gumminess problem, and 6 mos being the safe time to use befoire problems can arise. I'm no chemist, though, no engineer, or, quoting Adrian Monk, "I'm no Mr. McGoo."
Ray
Is it not true that the flakes, if stored properly, have a very, very long shelf-life??? I thought it was the liquid that needs to be used fairly quickly.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Flakes and alcohol stored separately last indefinitely, you're right. Frenchy was talking about using premixed cans- my experience is to check the born on date- it can dry to the touch but not always be quite hard enough to buff out.Expert since 10 am.
jack,
You got that right.
Ray
Thanks. The OP (original poster) is asking about whether we would like to see another source for flakes, I think. Sad that he's not getting much on-target response to his serious query. Does that mean the answer is "Not really" or does it mean the people who would like such aren't seeing thread, or are they bored? Wish I knew the answer!
Miss having the business section here at the main forum. Oh well.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
As you know, these threads always become tangent, like the branches on a tree...somewhere in there is an answer to his question.Expert since 10 am.
I'm all for branches, LOL. It's just that usually the digressions take off after there's been a pretty full discussion of the original question. This one took a left turn real close to the start. Maybe that is the answer to the OP's question.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
In an indirect sense he is getting an answer.. from the way this post wandered off topic it's clear that few are that interested in alternative sources for flakes..
forestgirl,In a way, the answer I think, was yes. Being that geting a reliable source of good quality was hard to find. Which was why I had suggested Homestead finishing. They have a reliable product and good customer service albiet at a little higher price than the folks at shellac.net.Trying to find a good supply of shellac flakes can be challenging. Moser and Behlen are really expensive, but have a proven track record for quality.It depends on how much time and money one has to experiment with.Since I work wood for a living, once I find a good supply I generally tend to stick with it. Except for the time I got the good deal on the blonde hock flakes. Not a good deal, but I learned my lesson.I don't know if this helps, but it is trying at best to locate quality materials.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
The colors available from Garnet and Seedlac create extraordinary finishes.
djchurn,
No that is an excellant reason!
I've never used anything except the clear avialable from Zinzzlers, A whole new world to explore!
Thanks!
Frenchy,I use the stuff out of the can as well.I also mix small batches of other types because of the variety of subtle color differences between the grades. I do quite a bit of antique repair work and the majority of shellac I use to touch up is dark garnet,button, and seedlac from homestead finishing.I also use the blonde for padding/french polishing.I have yet to try the canned stuff for french polish.I can also tell that a fresh shellac tends to dry faster and rub out better than the canned variety. I mostly use the canned stuff for case interiors, drawers and padded finishes that are rubbed out.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
JP
Thank you, that color differance was just pointed out to me and I now have a whole new world to explore and play with, isn't this forum great!
Frenchy,Don't forget, the premixed stuff is not dewaxed !C.
citroulle,
Seal coat is dewaxed regular Bullseye isn't both are premixed..
JP,I didn't even know Shellac.net was no longer in business, I am just about to run out of my supply, do you suggest I go with Jeff Jewitt now ? I want the best product available.
In the past I used to buy from Dick (http://www.dick.biz) but with the dollar so low and shipping charges so high it becomes prohibitive.C.
citrouille,I like the shellac from homestead. I have been buying shellac and other finishing supplies from homestead for about 4 years now. His prices are a little higher, but not much, and the customer service is very good and worth the extra expense.My only gripe is that he charges shipping by price and not weight so that sometimes adds to the cost as well.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
Thanks J.P.,I 'll give it a shot.C.
JP/All,I'm considering using shellac to finish some pine windows and trimwork in my new addition. I'm trying to come close to the original woodwork in my 1890's house. The dark garnett color looks very close. I have 2 questions:(1) Does each coat of shellac darken the color?
(2) I live in a cold climate and we get some condensation on the windows at times. If I put a finish coat of poly over it will shellace hold up to a small amount of moisture?Thanks for your help.
Hi Mike,The shellac will darken with each coat slightly. You will have to experiment with the color and will probably need to use a stain or dye to get close to the color of the original windows.The nice thing about shellac is that you can put on a coat, use a stain over top of that then put another coat of shellac on top. Plus it is very forgiving. If you dont like the results then remove it with alcohol or ammonia.A little bit of water wont hurt the shellac. You may need several coats to be sure.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
MikeK
JP answered you pretty completely . Don't be tempted to stain the pine.. pine stains blotchy so it never looks good (IMHO) stain the shellac..
As for moisture affecting the shellac, it's really not an issue in my home (Minnesota) But if frost should form because of single pane windows I'd wipe it off without any harm.. once the shellac turns white, grab a rag, soak it with denatured alcohol and wipe off the shellac and wipe or paint on three fresh coats.
Always remember to overly thin the shellac.. the secret to getting run free finishes..
Frenchy,Thanks for sharing your knowledge of and passion for shellac.I'm going to try shellacing the windows and the rest of the trim. What is the secret for getting a less glossy finish? I'm looking for more of a satin finish than a high gloss.
You can buy "shellac flat" to add but most people I know just buff it out with an appropriate grit abrasive to get the sheen lowered.
frenchy --- thanks to your prodding <G> -- I'm using more and more shellac. Given your experience, what's the worst that can happen with cans that are older than 3 years? Won't dry? Can you then just swipe it with a rag with alcohol, and proceed with fresher shellac?I've got a few cans that are dated 2002, and I'm wondering if it would be best to just dispose of it.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood,
Yes dispose of them by shipping them prepaid to me. What I do is add a ,lot of fresh denatured alcohol to them and have never seemed to have a problem.. what I suspect happens is the denatured alcohol is the problem. The flakes are good but the light ends of the alcohol chain evaporate and cause problems.. Since I always over thin it never seems to be a problem. Worst case you wipe off with denatured lacohol and curse me out!
I'll be honest and admit that I don't have a lot of scientific tests to back up my theory. I wiped off the shellac finish from my 70 year old piano and the rags dried stiff.. so the flakes 70 years old were still OK
the old stuff I have are cans of Zinsser. I'm going to try some on a test board tomorrow and see what happens. It's only about a year out of date (2002), so if I thin it out, I'm guessing it will be fine.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood,
let me know will you? Just use a lot of denatured alcohol(I mix three gallons denatured alcohol to one gallon of premix) and slop 'er on .. (well you can be a little careful as long as you are fast!
really really fast, don't let an edge dry flood it on! and it should dry really fast!
MikeK
Hmmm My solution seems to be so low tech as to be insane so plase don't be frightened..
use it as is (mix with a lot of denatured alcohol about 3 to 1) and put on three thin watery coats.. sanding between each coat. I like to use 3M's sanding sponge on wiondows, the yellow one 220 grit.. Don't throw it out when it's worn down,, I can sand about 20 bigger sized windows between each coat with one..
Now you will notice that it doesn't have the typical plasticy look that you associate with high gloss. Instead it has a real depth that belies how thin the coats are.. that depth doesn't really have much gloss unless you work to achieve it.. (and I mean work) so don't work!
Let a little dust collect on it and when you dust the dust will leave tiny little microscratches. There, you now have a satin finish..
poly will hold up to moister two coats
To answer your question, I know a couple of people who have researched this and gotten into the business. Most of the high-quality shellac flakes come from one supplier in Germany. Importing from Asia is hit and miss as far as quality and color. Or so I've been told.
Hope you get some useful (and to-the-point) responses in your thread. The marketplace is getting more and more concentrated with regard to suppliers of many items these days. Part of your marketing effort might be to educated woodworkers as to the joys and benefits of buying flakes instead of pre-mixed liquid.
I didn't realize Jeff based his shipping prices on $$ amount instead of weight. That makes the shipping easy to calculate with on-line software, but with something like shellac, it's kind of expensive. If you were carrying just the one product, you could probably do it differently.
A plea to other posters: If you have a shellac application question, could you start a new thread? Those issues can overwhelm a thread like this.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled