Do you consider yourself a:
- Beginner Woodworker
- Advanced Beginner
- Intermediate
- Advanced
- Professional
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Replies
I think you need to define your terms.
Let's face it, most of us can walk on wood! Heck, when I want I can even turn wine into a drunk! ;*)
Don
Edited 10/22/2003 8:37:47 PM ET by Don C.
What about "Hack"?
Hey! I resemble that remark!!!!
8^)
Don
Professional doesn't imply skill.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
I call myself advanced recreational. Good enough to have once made a living as a bespoke furniture-maker, and to win some awards ... but now making do with Ryobi pressed tin and a few hours every other weekend. Where do I fit? I'll bet there's quite a few of me in FWW's subscriber list.
Mike
Professional: Following an occupation as a means of livelihood. Webster....
I have a 17 year old son that I got a job for in a friends cabinet shop. He moves lumber an is allowed to cross-cut rough stock to pre-dimension at this point. He gets a pay-check each week for doing it. He works part time and averages about 16 hours a week for about 6 months. I have spent an average of 25 to 36 hours a week in the shop for 31 years. I do not get paid for it.
He is a professional and I am a Hobbyiest. Can it be?? Do you suppose we could use a rating system or certification here in the U.S. as most have. Might eliminate some of the confusion. ha..ha..
Have a good evening, Mike...
sarge..jt
Hey, I was a 'professional' cabinet maker for several years. I KNOW that term doesn't necessarily imply skill!
Just cause u get paid for doing something doesn't mean you know diddly squat about what your doing!!!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike
And that's the point I make. In essence, I was backing the point you originally made. I feel you couldn't be more correct.
Hope the weather in Katy Tx. is as nice as Atlanta today. Well, got to drive my professioanl WW to work. His car is in the shop. Too bad he's not a "professioanl" mechanic also. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Sarge,
At your advanced years....it's good that you have a professional to turn to for advice..lol....maybe he could take you to the dog pound and get ya an old greezer for your last few months....:-)
BG
An even in my advanced years, what would I do with another "old geezer"? I already got you and ToolDoc and that's about all this old feeble mind can handle at one time. :>)
BTW, a new Veritas medium shoulder plane is on the way. I called Lee-Valley just to ask a question about it and I was the 9th caller. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
In essence all of you are correct. From beginner to pro I see one common thread. woodworkers creating, cutting, gluing, nailing, imagining, drawing, and in the end making something that was not there before you put your hands to it and could never be repeated in the exact same way no matter how hard you tried. Now that's the true amazing, and wonderful thing I think draws us all to woodworking
Jack
An execellent summary to a complicated question. The bottom line is probably the qualtity of product that crosses the finish line.
Rgards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I know just enouph, that NOW I know, how little I know.
of course I've only been doing this for 15 years...Christmas is coming..... should I buy the wife that new tablesaw ....hmmmm
Thanks for the good words Sarge. In terms of quality, if can cut it straight, make it flat and square, glue it true, finish it smooth and make it last longer than any of that junk in the furniture superstores, no matter the design or skill level, in my mind you've achieved a measure of quality that's hard to beat for the price of a few tools and some shop time.
Jack
Hey, it's kind of fun on top of that. An according to my wife, it keeps me from chanting that rapp stuff on the local street corner. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Merry Xmas...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If the U.S. used a rating system we would have to decide to teach trades.
The two go hand in hand in my opinion.
And if the U.S. decided to teach trades where would the money come from?
Mmmm, Lets see. Where did all that money go?
david
Where would the money come from?
When I was a kid back in the 50's, we used to go "door to door" on Saturday and ask if people had any extra metal coat hangers. They always did. We sold them to the local dry-cleaner for $.01 for 3 hangers. Then there were the coca-cola bottles people threw from the car window as if the side of the road were a garbage can. $.03 each deposit returned on those.
I do wish that trades were taught and we had a rating system. The point above is, "where there's a will, there's a way". The problem is we would have to get off our lazy hinny's and find the way. Probably won't happen as most seem to be more content anymore with "b*tching about things than doing something about them." ha..ha..
That statement is not directed at you, just a general comment. Only a personal soul-search from each individual would reveal if they fit that category.
Have a good day, David...
sarge..jt
I'll throw in my vote for beginner, owning probably an obscene number of tools for the amount of woodworking I've done, way too many books (most all of them great), but I've spent too damn much time working at my job to afford the tools and reading about how to cut wood rather than cutting wood. But, who knows, I'm young (relatively), maybe there's still hope that I'll reach the stage where I'm confused about whether I'm an advanced intermediate or in the intermediate stages of advancement.
Matt
Matt,
I used to rely on my youth...now I'm relying on medical technology to keep me alive long enough to do all the things I want to! lol Next time you get the urge to read a WW book, go out to your shop and start something, anything! even if you only spend 15 minutes. I speak from experience, formerly being a total "New Yankee Workshop" whore. Now I'm a "professional" (as above, not implying a level of skill but just that I have the cojones to charge people for what I do!
Too bad there wasn't a "wood butcher" category in the poll...
I guess I'd have to say... a beginner, with so much to learn & so far to go. Sure is fun getting there! Also, probably too many books, but I've enjoyed them all and go through at least one of them almost everyday - really should spend more time doing than reading about it, but what I do get around to doing, I love. I feel very fortunate to be able to spend time at what I enjoy. It balances out the other... stuff.
It's a fine day that starts early in the shop, the smell of wood cut the previous day (or night), coffee (or beverage of choice) in hand, looking & pondering over the next step in a project, listening to the birds outside the window & /or door, and continues for the remainder of the day (and night?); maybe without a (human) disturbance - just you and the creative spark - VERY satisfying.
Just my two cents.
I've taken Woodworking I and II at the University of Memphis (CEUs) and am therefore qualified to take Ww III (basicly a lab class where you provide your own wood, make what you want and use their tools independently, although there is an instructor there and the other students for assistance/advice.) They don't allow ANYONE to take Ww III without a minimum of Ww II due to safety & insurance reasons. I replied advanced beginner because I'm still pretty new at it - however I know a smattering about wood, how it's processed, what to look for, the skills to make make a board flat and square (albeit a small board) either by hand or with a jointer and planer), how to make drawers with dovetails, square up a small table, etc. In a few years, I'll probably consider myself an intermediate of some sort just due to having done "more" - not necessarily "better" or even more "advanced" (although I do hope I get better ;-)) I could probably name a few of you guys that I would rate "professional" just by virtue of the VAST store of information you put out here - although even some of that could just be so much BS. I'm definitely a hobbyist and not looking to go much further. I made a small adirondack chair for the grandson with Bob the Builder on it using aniline (sp?) dyes and have had several people say, "Wow, you could make a lot of money making those and selling them" BUT I'm not sure I would enjoy making the same thing, over and over, even if it made money ALTHOUGH I'm aware there's some potential there to BUY NEW STUFF!!! hmmmmmm!
Robin, Molly and Sadie (the Wonder Labs) "Wonder if you could make chairs with US on them? I bet people would pay a LOT for one of those!"
C'mon Sysop (or is it PsyOps,LOL??) tell us why you're asking!
IMO, it's cool that there's such an apparent mix of skill and experience (ok, self-defined skill and experience) on these boards. *****I just hope the poll doesn't get interpreted as standing for the readership of the magazine, which would probably be a different kettle of fish.*****
I allowed myself to be an Advanced Beginner -- so glad to have that category available, LOL!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well since you asked... We are in the process of redoing the home page for the FineWoodworking web site, and as we have done with the redesigns of the other sites we now include a poll on the home page. The poll is generated by Prospero but allows users on the website to also vote. This is part of Prospero's Active Content. I do not think up the questions I just make the poll happen. Would an "other" category have helped? That way users could have filled in the blank. SYSOP[email protected]
People sure seem touchy about the professional rating as if it implied that it automatically placed you above the "advanced" rating. Truth is, that if you are indeed making a living at this, you have a whole range if areas of interest that are very relevant to your work that do not apply to someone who is doing this for enjoyment. If you are publishing a magazine and interested in what might keep your readers subscribing, it would be good to know just how many people might find articles on labor laws, bidding, scheduling, presentation, photography,training, etc. This is also important in knowing how to attract appropriate advertisers to your publication.
Just my 2 cents
Aoha Tai
I think there are two main differences between amateur and professional.
First, you are working to please a customer, not yourself. You have to make objective judgements based upon market requirements rather than subjective aesthetics and desires.
Second, you HAVE to make money. Time and cost enter into every decision you make. You have to have a certain level of efficiency in order to survive. Amateurs can generally take all the time they want to make things as well as they want to.
As for skill level, it's all over the place, as has been observed above, but those two considerations I just listed make a big difference in outlook.
Michael R
Michael,
I would suggest that one must find some common ground between "market requirements" and "subjective aesthetics and desires". If not, woodworking will become little more than drudgery, even for a pro. Of course, there are those pro's such as the late Harold Ionson who finally arrived at the point where they just made what they wanted - if someone wanted to buy what he made, good; if not, oh well.
Jeff
Jeff,
I like what I do, and have been doing for the last 30+ years. I pick the market I like to work in, but I have no desire to impose my esthetics on anyone else. Part of the fun for me is working with people who have specific ideas and helping them to achieve them -- at a profit. I guess that makes me more of a craftsman than an artist.
Mr. Ionson sounds like an artist, and more power to him. If the power to create and "express yourself" is your main drive, that's great, but if nobody likes your work, you will probably be a starving artist. Truly, all credit to those who can produce only what they want and make a living at it. They are pretty rare.
For me, it's just as satisfying to help other people realize their visions. I like the combination of problem solving, design, and execution. I have a wide ranging appreciation for many aesthetic viewpoints, and I gain from almost every project I work on. Making only what I want would be kind of limiting for me; I don't think I'd learn as much.
Probably my biggest satisfaction is when a customer walks up to a project I have done for them, and all they can say is, "wow," or when a stranger walks in, and it stops them in their tracks. That's a kick.
Michael R
Man, this is a touchy one, Hah, hah, ha...
You people want so desperatly to quantify your work.
I'll simply ask these few questions...
Would you hire an amateur contractor to build your house? Why not?
Would you hire an internist to diagnose your illness? Why not?
Would you hire the neighbor who does a bit of plumbing to repair your burst pipe? Why or why not?
How about a shade tree mechanic to service your car?
My point is that professional anythings are generally more reliable, do better work and are better at their trade or craft than amateurs. Of course there are exceptions but when I want a job done well and on time I look first to a professional.
I am a professional furniture maker so you can take all this drivel for whatever you feel it's worth.
Lee
http://www.furniturecarver.com
Well I just gotta chuckle.... I think I'll professionally build myself a ladder so I can be a intermediate hobbyist at the top where it isn't so deep. This forum always has something interesting to read its always great fun to come here. Thanks.
Sucking.......Whoosh.......Yowl........Whoosh.........Thrump. Putty Tat up the DC
Edited 11/14/2003 9:29:39 PM ET by Original-Bart
Edited 11/14/2003 9:30:40 PM ET by Original-Bart
I did not think the poll was that confusing. The list does not necessarily mean that a "professional" is a higher or lower level of skill than any of the other categories, only that woodworking is your profession, your full time job. The term "professional" is often used incorrectly. The Dictionary of Occupational Titles describes what it takes to be a true "professional". There are several factors that separate a Professional from the rest of us.Some that I remember are; requires advanced and specific schooling, a licence is required and a board oversees and regulates licence procedures and reviews, a Professional must swear an oath of ethical obligation, a Professional must provide services without regard to personal harm or renumeration ($). Not many of us qualify as true professionals, that is a term that only applies to doctors, health care workers, lawyers and in my opinion should be left to those who really deserve it. I have been employed full time as a woodworker for over thirty years, I am a certified woodworking instructor in my state but I am not a professional woodworker. Even as a licenced teacher I am not a professional teacher (teachers don't qualify for "professional" status). Woodworking is my profession. As far as beginner or advanced is concerned all I can say is, so much to learn-so little time
Well put.
So it's a Prospero thing and Fine Woodworking isn't asking the question? In that case, the users of this forum are probably being used as a marketing pool for any number of merchants, manufacturers, etc. And we are not being told who those interests are.
This being the case, I want my input back. You can't have it.
No I'm sorry if I mislead. Prospero is simply the tool that we use to make the Poll happen. The actual question/answers came from the FineWoodworking editorial group and they are the ones that will be looking at the responses. It is done more as an "entertainment thing" than it is as an information gathering tool.
Under no circumstances do we give or allow Prospero to use information gathered through these polls/forums for any purpose whatsoever. It just does not happen and if it did we would not be using them as our Forums host! If you have any questions on this please don't hesitate to ask. -MarkSYSOP[email protected]
SYSOP
while you're here can you enliten us on why Taunton continually harvests our email address as we move arround the site ?
Ian
Ian,
Can you explain to me why it is that you think we are "harvesting" your email address? Also are you talking about here in the forums or out on Taunton.com? As these are 2 different websites with different activities associated with each. We do make use of cookies on both the forums and Taunton.com. At Taunton.com we use session cookies to keep track of what you are putting in your shopping cart and when the browser is closed the cookie is gone. It is all laid out very clearly in our privacy policy. Here on the forums there are a couple of cookies used to keep track of a variety of things, for instance like what messages you have seen your subscriptions etc. So as for as harvesting email addresses I would really be interested in why it is that you think we are doing something. If you want to respond directly to me via email feel free: [email protected]
Thanks Mark
SYSOP[email protected]
Mark
I've emailed you separately
Ian
Posting photos of finished pieces would probably cut to the chase rather thn using lables no one understands.
Frank
Personally, I didn't have any problem with the categories as they are, and not quite sure why anyone would be fired up about the poll. I was just curious if the data was going to be used to make decisions about something with regard to either the forum Knots, or the magazine FWW.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I haven't read the whole post yet but...... I tink one of the big issues of being a pro is to be able to execute projects in a timely manner. That being said I apprenticed with an Italian Master ( Ebonistiere ) In the late 70'sOn a hill by the harbour
Untill I recieve a certificate stateing otherwise I'm proudly claiming status as a rank beginner..
That will be my claim and I'm sticking to it!
No one said how many tools you could have before you lost your status as a rank beginner, nor have they said how big a project you need to complete to move up..
Heck, they didn't talk about the quality or difficulty of the work.
I agree with what others have said regarding the unclear definition of the posted terms. I have been working wood seriously for 6 years, however, a friend of mine who lives in rural Alabama has been a cabinetmaker for at least 45 years. He uses tools that one could only characterize as being antiquated. I have never seen him cut dovetails with a jig or by hand for any furniture, nor does he use expensive wood, but he is able to produce a very fine product. I doubt that he EVER read FW or any other book or magazine concerning woodworking. He learned the trade as a young man by hard work in a commercial shop. Yet, he is a consummate professional with less academic knowledge than myself.
Why, oh why, are we taking this poll so seriously? ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Advanced Beginner.......thats me. I know what wood looks like, have cut a few peices of it along the way, make lots of kindling for the stove, and don't get paid a dime.
By the way Sarge, be nice to your kids they get to pick your nursing home....ha...ha.
TDF
Tom
Nursing home!! Nursing Home!! My kids pick my nursing home!!
Bullsh**... From the route I chose to get to where I'm at now, there won't be a nursing home in the picture. Doesn't fit my image. There will be a major table-saw accident......
I'm going down swinging!!
ha..ha..
Have a good evening, Tom...
sarge..jt
Tom,
I suspect that 'Ole Sarge' ...and need a lift to the nursing home...and can't get a dog cause too old....etc., etc. is just a cover for a diabolical plot that is being hatched, but you have to connect the dots from all his posts to get the full picture.
First, he says he wants to build a workbench...(why, with all his power tools)
Second, he wants to get back into using hand planes..(plane what?)
Third, he builds a beautiful bench ...that looks like a dance floor on top...( hmm, interesting ..don't think it makes a difference to the wood)
Fourth, he turns his workshop into a cocktail lounge at night..( uh oh, what's going on?)
Fifth, workbench top material is marred easily by stilleto heels....( who wears stilleto heels)...( guess what he is going to be planing...maybe during the dancing)
Sixth, he says to you ..." he wants to be a Swinger"
Does that sound like a man doing a mapquest search for the shortest route to the nursing home?
diabolical...I gotta get me a bench like his....lol
BG
Cocktail Lounge. Down south we prefer using the expression, "Gentleman"s Retreat". It usually brings in the higher spending convention crowd. Need those extra bucks as this hand-plane thing isn't cheap. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Okay.....Okay.....so Sarge is doing the lap dance thing on his new bench????
I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fit the Sarge I've pictured all this time at Knots!
TDF
Tom
Ha..ha.. Would controlling the cash register as opposed to the lap dance thing fit the description better?
Have a good week-end Tom...
sarge..jt
FG,
Exactly! Woodworking is a skilltrade with so many facets that in my opinion you could be a recognized world authorting in one aspect, and be a hack in another. I don't make a living primarily with woodworking, but I think I could if I ever decided to pursue that direction, but I would never consider something like intricate inlay marquetry (sp?). It's something I've never done, and don't I'd be cheating someone if tried to take that kind of work on. I've also seen some of the nice cabriole legs, and chiprelief carving that some here pull off with their period pieces. Again, something I don't have real understanding of. But.....I believe I could make a decent living as a cabinet maker, and as a plasterer by trade, I've done more then my share of pattern making, and I know alot of woodworkers that don't know anything about that type of work. I recently saw a show on I believe the History Channel where a bunch of people made a Viking long ship, and another show were a group of people trying to build a duplicate of the Wright Brothers first plane. This one is a two part series with the second part airing in Dec. when they try flying it a Kitty Hawk.
Woodworking is just a trade, skill, profession or advocation that can be piegon holed. Most of us could describe ourselves as jacks of all woodworking trades, masters of none.
Don
I have always been drawing, building, making, or doing something creative all my life, but I have to smile when I think of myself as a professional. Yes I do get paid for building something or for using my skills to get someone out of a jam. To use the term professional is also to imply that I have reached the highest Plato that is possible. I have a masters degree in art but I have never sold any of the art I have made. But I still call myself an artist. I have made a good living as a carpenter and craftsman and have put my art background to good use. To me to be called a professional is the start of something. I'm willing to continue to learn and to take risk. I know I have the skills and the confidence to do what I have never done before and if I make a few mistakes, it's great to learn.
Edited 11/13/2003 8:44:31 PM ET by TheArtist
Edited 11/13/2003 8:47:27 PM ET by TheArtist
All I know is.......
When the price is forgotten.........
The Quality still remains......
No matter what you call yourself.
Mike
I rate myself as a Beginner on what I yet have to learn;
Intermediate on how well I know what I know;
And a Professional on the quality of the pieces I do create.
Cheers,
Whayner
Well, I don't think I'm a beginner any longer, because I don't watch Norm cutting wood any more. But I know I'm not a professional yet because I can't change the battery on my hand drill nearly as fast as that guy on Tool Time. I know he is a professional because he gets paid good money for doing that on TV.
Ken
i dont know what advanced, but i been woodworking for years and there is always something new coming out
I'm definitely in the beginner category. I've made many jigs and fixtures for my work shop and tools...I guess I should try my hand at an actual piece of furniture now...
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