I’m curious. Does anyone think Delta, Grizzly, powermatic and others visit this site? What a wealth of knowledge they could get. If they were really objective, they could carefully read the posts where they get bashed and make changes to improve sales. Just curious if they’re paying attention…..
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Hmm. Off the top of my head, the only vendors I recall seeing here (who will admit to it, anyway) are CharlesM "the Freud Dude" and, in the past, Dino, the saw guide guy. I would think vendors would tend to be in "stealth mode" to avoid causing the sort of behavior I'll call the Chevy vs. Ford Syndrome. (Never happen here, right? <G>) I think they would tend to want folks to come to them directly with questions/comments about their products rather than address them on a public forum. I wouldn't be surprised that a few tune in from time to time, though, just to lurk.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
If they are listening, I'm waiting for an affordable drill press designed for woodworking rather than metal...8" quill throw and a big table.
"Vendors listening" Add Laguna to your list. A few months ago they really got an earful from dissatisfied customers.
If Grizzly is listening, here's a lob.
Among other products, I have one of their radial drill presses. A few weeks ago the table fell of during a drilling operation. It fell off because it was held on by one bolt that was only 1/4-3/8" reach into the column casting and it chipped out all the threads near the front. My first thought was to just get a bolt 1/2" or so longer so it got some good bite and I'd be fine.
Grizzly, for whatever reason, used a diameter/pitch that no one, even the industrial suppliers carries (unless I want to order 100 of them special order for $50). It's a 12 pitch and common standard is 13. So why is that???
I contact Grizzly customer service and sure enough they can send me a longer bolt. It's $1; high but not extravagant. Oh, and there's a $9 shipping charge. And they can't guarantee it will work or do any good. I pleaded with them to see if they could just send me one as a goodwill measure and their only response was, "I might want to add some accessories because I can get up to $25 in things for the same shipping charge."
Meanwhile, Grizzly customer support has spent way more than 25 cents of time the bolt would cost, every magazine I open, Grizzly has a two page spread right inside the front cover, and last week, I get a full color 648 page catalog in the mail. Think of what they are spending to attract new customers and new sales and that a 25 cent part cost them a customer.
When I walk into my shop now, I see the Grizzly tool and just growl. I spent 25 years as a design engineer and "repairability" was always an important design consideration. I probably won't ever buy another Grizzly tool.
For want of a nail, etc.
Drill it out and tap it larger with a bolt size that is common. I wouldn't send grizzly a buck to save my life after that experience.
Jeff
Jeff, a buddy of mine drilled out to 5/8" and retapped. We think alike.
Are you sure it isn't a common metric size, most Grizzly tools are metric threaded. It is very unlikely that they would use an exotic thread.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Yes. I tried metric when the standard 1/2" x 13 did not fit more than one revolution. A machinist friend suspected it might be British Whitworth (sp?), but that is more than I know about.
For general interest:for 1/2" diameter bolts American Standard Threads there are 13 threads per inch(pitch)= National Course (NC orUNC)
For British Standard Threads a 1/2" bolt will have 12 threads per inch=British Standard Whitworth (BSW).
A 12mm diameter bolt(nearest size to 1/2 inch)will have about 141/2 threads per inch- which looks pdc to 1/2 inch NPT (American Pipe Taper) which has exactly 14 threads per inch.....
So it is no surprise that us unsuspecting woodworms are caught out.
Anyway, if it were me I would re-drill ,tap with a suitable size and send the swarf back to Grizzilfizzly.Philip Marcou
Dear Hammer, I sure hope that the vendors are lurking.
1. If you need the 14 square headed 5/16 x 1" bolts that are needed to mount the big fence rails on the old Sears (aka TTI) contactors saw you can get them from your friendly Sears parts folks for $2.19 each or a total cost of $2.97 each including shipping. I used the hex type with nylocks not pulled up super tight till I saw the light. TTI also makes the Rigid contractors saw ! Yes the structures are the same, hooray. Cost from Rigid parts direct $1.00 plus shipping, cost from my local (serious) tool supply repair source(from Rigid) $0.52. And you thought that the Griz was bad?
2. Rigid and HD are still on my bad list as I just picked up their 15" floor model drill press for $215, a $64 discount but it was missing the 5/8" chuck key and the little yellow plug for the electric switch-a safety device- that they say is in the stores. Here on Long Island we have as many HD as Starbucks (or Waffle houses in the south) 5 very near me and 4 more if I drive less than 45 min. No store had either. So I pick up a Milwaukee chuck key for $9.00 and use the switch key from my Rigid band saw(ya only get one with a tool), even Sears, as bad as they are, has their switch keys in the store,
At some point I decided to call Ridgid parts and was told that as I bought the tool at less than retail ---no free replacements of missing parts--- I was bumed, I didn't buy a short floor sample, they are selling off all the stationary tools to clear floor space and in the future you can look at the picture and order a table saw, jointer, band saw etc. BTW some stores discount these most do not-how's that for a unified selling plan?
The costs not being as severe as Sears I ordered the chuck key and two sets of switch keys with shipping for $13.50 but I will continue to avoid HD and there is NO chance that I will ever own another Sears anything. Paddy
I had the same missing key switch for my jointer from Ridged I bought it as a floor sample and instead of calling the parts people I called the customer service line and I told them it was a floor sample and they shipped it right away at no charge. Maybe the parts people have a different set up. Anyway hope that helps.Troy
HD sells Ryobi tools but do you think they sell most of the accessories at the stores? NOPE! You can get them online and wait, pay shipping, etc but not in the stores. Very stupid.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
After my first retirement, I worked in the hardware section of a local HD. I was always amazed that they never carried the sanding pads for the HD spindle/belt sander. Customers had to buy the Ryobi sleeves, which do not cover all the HD sander sizes. The HD discs weren't even in the computer!I should also mention that I knew where everything was in the department, and how they worked. I also often recommended that the customer go to another store to find exactly what they were looking form, and I am quite familiar with the inventory of most of the hardware stores around my city. I left the store about 18 months ago, and I still find myself helping customers when I go in for something. It's fun to do it in front of staff, especially when they've already told the customer that "We're out of that" or "No, we don't carry that any longer".RonBTW, I also worked for Lee Valley tools for a few months until I got tired of the drive to work. Whole different outfit than HD! They treat their staff with respect, and give a good discount to employees. I almost went broke saving money! HD gives no, repeat NO, discount to employees.
Edited 1/15/2007 10:39 pm ET by RonInOttawa
Ron, your comments are no suprise to me as I believe that they are run by a bunch of accountants and "smart marketeers" who know the profit and price of everything and the value of nothing. I have a full rack of PC nailers 23ga. pin to mod 350 framer and was looking for a 1 1/2 " x 1/4" crown stapler. I went down the aisle to the nails and picked up two boxes of 15&18 ga nails and couldn't find 1 1/2" staples. Low and behold I find out that they carry the mod 100 Pc (1") but if you want 1 1/2" you have to buy the Bostich stapler (a different ga. staple)
ps. they will not carry the 1 1/2 pc crown as the don't sell the stapler. That's fine by me. I put all my stuff back in the correct place(no need to punish the staff-they don't own the place- and left.
I went to my local tool dealer who supports the local trades and bought my pc-150, a pile of staples, a quick drive (to tie down the sub floor of the new house before laying an oak floor-600 sq.ft.) & a box of 5,000 screws. and an all in 27. cal gun to shoot the plate studs in basement slab for the new shop framing. I guess their bookeepers lost about $500+ on that deal and I saved a few bucks, got better tools . Not to mention, my tool dealer loves me to the tune of a 15% discount every time I go in there. I almost feel sad about moving to Tn. All the best, Paddy.
BTW. it's no suprise that Mr. Rob Lee and co. treat their folks well. It is very evident in the way that they literaly stand on their heads to help a customer. I have been the recipient if their first class, beyond what is necessary, type of service many times for several years across several states. # 2 is Higland Hardware all others are in fifth place and prehaps ok. pfh
Edited 1/16/2007 12:46 am ET by PADDYDAHAT
Home Depot is a great story of a company which has lost its way. When it came to Canada, you could get stuff which was really hard to find. They had loads of staff, including former - and some times current - trades folk and people who worked for vendors (I had help from a Freud employee who was working PT at HD).
Then they hired that clown from GE - always a bad sign. Service and selection went down the tubes. They cut back on employees and starting installing those self check out things. I hate those things because I pay for everything with a credit card and I'm left handed. A lefty can't sign on that stupid little pad (lefties know why, righties can't understand), so I could only scrawl something. Now, whenever I try use those machines, it flags me and I have to wait for the one cashier to check my ID like I'm a thief.
Most of the staff are minimum wage types, with the skills and knowledge to match.
I needed some 1x4s and I couldn't find them. So I waited the statutory 20 minutes for help. I asked the young whipper snapper where the 1x4s were. He asked me what I wanted them for. I said "let me worry about what I need them for and you just worry about telling where they are".
Amazingly Rona, a Quebec based hardware chain that tried to 'big box' used to be worse than HD is now. They have learned - I can drive into their indoor lumber yard, they'll load up my trailer, and I can pay them as I drive out. They have hugely improved.
Hopefully things will change at Home Depot. They fired the clown from GE, which is a good start, though they probably didn't fire him for destroying a good company. And they are building a Lowes not far from here ...
Paddy and All,
My experiences with vendor/sellers match yours. I now will only buy from Sears, their socket/screwdrivers/etc. You can walk in (usually) and get a replacement with no paperwork or hassle. Of course, I took in a 1/4 ratchet the other day and they first tried to give me a used/repaired (?) ratchet. I said no thank you, I would like a new one. They frowned but did comply with my request.
However, there are several others I refuse to do business with unless it the the truly, absolutely, without-a-doubt, no other possibility choice. catalogs is one. My experiences with Grizzly have be limited to a few plastic dust collection fittings and such. I have always been happy with Woodcraft except for their 10% higher price than anyone else! Others have badmouthed Delta but I have been extremely happy with their response to my request for a broken part.
Two last examples on the theme of the 25 cent bolt from Grizzly and the cost of a lost customer when they spend millions on ads, catalogs, etc.
Several years ago during my move after retirement, somehow we lost the knob on the switch to the lights on the headboard of our bed. Nowhere was I able to find a replacement. I called Lane Furniture and gave them the make/model/etc and requested a replacement. Told them to charge my credit card and send it! Three days later, an envelop arrived with two knobs in it. A note said they were not sure which would fit but one should. It did. By the way -- NO CHARGE! We've since spent literally thousands of dollars on Lane since then! (Yeah, I should be making rather than buying. <grin>)
Lastly, I have one of those fancy multi-tools. The blade lock came loose and pieces were lost. I sent it back to the company with a note requesting they send my an estimate for fixing it. I really assumed I would just say keep it as the cost would be more than it was worth. Three weeks later, I received the multi-tool back, repaired and with a NEW case! NO CHARGE! Manufacturer was Gerber. I will now buy only Gerber.
As they say, one happy customer will yield 10 customers but one bad customer experience will cost a hundred!
Are you listening manufacturers/stores/etc!
Thanks for listening. I now feel better!!!!A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
I sympathize with your problem BSW or standard British Witworth is 13 TPI at 1/2 inch BSF British standard fine is finer I am sorry I cant remember the exact pitch but I think It is 16tpi.I forgot American threads are 60 degrees British threads are 55 degrees this is the angle of the thread
Regards from OZ
You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
Edited 1/13/2007 3:03 am ET by Bolts
Yes , 1/2"BSF has 16tpi. I gave those examples because they look very similar i.e easy to confuse. 16tpi is easy to visually identify as "different" to them.Philip Marcou
I would call back and move up the food chain. I can definitely see your reason for being PO'd, though. I must have been lucky when I called them and got someone who actually cared.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
On a positive side, I have a Porter-Cable 557 biscuit jointer and I went to change the blade between the 0-10-20 version and FF version and found the bolt frozen. The unit was less than a year old and I'd only used it four or five times. After a couple of interactions on the internet, they directed me to a nearby service center. After an initial try, they couldn't get it open either, so asked me to leave it. At some point, I must have expressed some dissatisfaction with this design because three days later a brand new unit shows up at my door. Kudos to them.
It's amazing how you hear all kinds of nightmare experiences with some of these companies and then, a happy ending shows up. I broke the chisel holder on my Delta morticing attachment and called their customer service number. I expected to pay for a new one + shipping and she asked for my name and address, saying a new one would be sent to me ASAP. I repeated that I had broken it (I need to shut up sometimes) and she said, "That's OK, we'll replace it".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Your observation about the nightmare experiences/happy ending stories is the same line of thinking that caused me to post this thread. I'm sure there are scores of woodworking forums, but this one has to be the best known. If I'm a marketing exec at one of these manufacturers, I'd surely be watching to see what got me good or bad PR. byhammerandhand's replies are perfect example. A good experience gets a kudo, the bad experience a complete tunoff. And for what? a $1 bolt? If the Grizzly person sends the bolt for free, it's a whole different post.
Last time I talked to Grizzly CS department, it was for some questions I had, not problems, but in the course of the conversation I asked if they had any plans for a TS with a riving knife. I also mentioned that Knots would be a good thing for them to read. I haven't seen any direct reference to anyone from the company being here but I wouldn't be surprised if they have been.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The president of Grizz hangs out on WoodNet and to a lesser extent SMC. He does respond to ques. on them from problems to new products.
Wanna know if he hangs here? Address him directly.
Take care, Mike
I've run across the president, owners, or agents of Grizzly, ClearVue, Oneida, Lee Valley, Wynn Environmental, Freud, Festool, Minimax, Laguna on this or other forums. Hard to tell here though as usernames can mask the identity of who's behind it.
If you build it he will come.
And, there are others as well.
The ones I appreciate are the ones who join in the discussion as woodworkers, not tool sellers. The ones that say, "Oh I know a product that will fix your problem." and then attach photos or other info about what they sell -- well, I don't think that is appropriate for Knots.
I know Lee Valley has been on, Larry Williams of Clark and Williams. They have been great to converse with. In fact, unless one just happened to know who Larry Williams is, you probably wouldn't learn about Clark and Williams from his posts. He has been just another woodworker helping other woodworkers with questions.
Alan - planesaw
Absolutely! Wouldn't you?
They should be lurking here. This forum, at times, has been like a research and development department for certain tools-what a resource!
Home Depot story........
I picked up a second-hand Husky 5 drawer tool chest that was like new just a couple small dents. They keys for the lock were missing. I went to my local store and asked if they had a replacement lock I could purchase-NOPE. OK....how about making a key from the existing lock? When the guy in the hardware dept. stopped laughing I asked what would be my next best option. He said I should find a "regular" hardware store to key the lock.......I informed him that H.D. had already put all those stores out of business.
I was finally able to get a phone number for parts from the customer service desk. I called the number......."Hello Stanley Tool Works parts dept. how may I help you?" Stanley sent the keys for free from the part number on the lock.
I will never again rely on ANYBODY in those stores to be knowledgeable enough to answer any question more complicated than "where's the restroom?".
-Paul
About the only time I have the opinion that someone at HD knows where more than a few things are and what they do is when they first open a store and the corporate people are there. Other than that, I don't even ask about the restrooms since they're usually in the same place in all of their stores. Use their lack of knowledge to your benefit- you could probably have gotten a bigger discount if you harped on the fact that it had no keys. HD may have put some hardware stores out of business but not the good ones. Those will stock things HD and the other big boxes won't and they know exactly how they work, what they do and where they are in the store. We have a few stores like this in Milwaukee and if you ask someone over a certain age, they'll know where the store is. One store is downtown and I'm a third generation customer.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The only person I want to interact with when I use those stores is the cashier. That's only because I refuse to use the self check-out lane. Unfortunately, I'm in a small hardware store dead zone. I don't know of one that is anything near convenient from here. In the northeast I had old fashioned hardware stores - I miss those places!! I've begun the slow conversion to shopping for supplies online when it makes sense to do so. It's a shame, really, that sort of one on one interaction is long gone.
-Paul
I will never again rely on ANYBODY in those stores to be knowledgeable enough to answer any question more complicated than "where's the restroom?".
Amen!
My all time favorite response from a HD employee:
Me: Hello, can you tell me where I can find one of these bolts?
HD Associate: Well, if we have them they will be on that isle over there.
Me: No $h!%! On the bolt isle? I never would have guessed.
I'd like to drop kick them in the nuts when they tell me that.
Lee
Then, to make things worse, they feel compelled to move things around just when they realize that nobody asks where things are. Their need to be needed pizzes me off! It also makes me leave without buying a lot of things and then I go somewhere else that keeps them in the same place. I hate having to keep the floor plan and inventory of 6 stores in my memory. It wastes capacity to remember important things.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
high,
They move things around so you will see (and be tempted to buy) things you didn't know you needed, while you look for the item you came to buy.
Ray Pine
That may be true but not being able to find something that you know was definitely in a particular place is a waste of time for you, the customer. I look at it as being similar to moving the furniture in a blind person's house. They do the same thing at grocery stores and it makes me crazy.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
My favorite is when I ask where something is, the employee unclips his cell phone and calls someone else in the store - then gets direction from that other person whilst towing me along. It takes so long and, to me, is so rude that I've decided to say, "Thanks, don't bother.." when I see that hand start toward the phone...
Zolton
Zolt, as Ray says the thing you want causes ya to trapse pass all the things that they want to sell you. They learned that from the supermarkets who put the milk etc. in the farthest diagonal corner from the front door of the joint.
I have seen a Lowe's that has a button you can push for help half way down the aisle that worked for me a few times. I have also noticed that Lowe's always has pannel and flat carts lined up in the wide lumber aisle unlike home dopy where you have to beat up some guy in the parking lot to get one. I am not in love with either but Lowe's at least looks like their trying. Paddy
My favorite -
Employee: Can I help you?
ME: Probably not..........
My wife tells me not to do this anymore; says it's unkind.
Q,
I'll have to remember that one!
Lee
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