I know this is a long shot but, I’m trying to get feedback from anyone who might actually own a Pantorouter. I purchased one used a few months ago, in preparation for a project my daughter(never been in my shop before) wanted to build that had dozens of mortises thinking it would be easier and quicker for her to learn, and must say it has been a great disappointment.
I spend hours doing set up get the test joints fitting acceptably , not great, then watch as my production joints are totally unacceptable. Does anyone have success with this tool? Or am I just missing something?
At this point I wish I had simply bought a Festool Domino they just never seemed like true mortise and tenons to me.
Replies
each5995:
I wish you the best of luck with this.
I purchased the plans, several years ago, then decided that it would take me too much time to make exact matching templates for the mortise and tenon joints that I wanted to machine. Also, that the machine seemed more focused on the production side... that is, where you need to make many, many copies of the same thing.
I've owned the same Domino for 10 years, or so; and though it has its limitations; it is my go-to joinery tool.
The woodworking world seems polarized on Festool products - the Domino has proven a workhorse for me.
Go with the Domino. If you are cutting your mortises with a router anyway you're on that slippery slope of "real" M&T joinery anyway. Your stated goal of using a machine to cut them is at odds with your feelings for the Festool.
The D'mo is just a router that shakes the bit to accomplish with a "store in a drawer tool" what your pantorouter will do while taking up square footage in your shop forever.
If you have a need to be "traditional" you can square up the D'mo slots with chisels and make your own loose tenons out of your project stock.
I'm interested in this question, too, considering buying one or the other next year. The thing that attracts me to the Pantarouter is the ability to rout the ends of longer boards, like a bed or table rail. Domino users, how would mortise the end of a 6' board?
Easy-peasy. Just clamp it to the bench. It registers like a biscuit joiner.
One issue I have with the Domino is it takes both a D500 and a D700 to handle the range of tenons I would need that is a significant investment, but in the range of a new Pantorouter.
Not the least expensive hobby, but you can always just use handtools, and often I do. Pick the machine that suits what you do most, or just the one for your current project. Or not. I have the small one and it saves me time and effort when I use it, which is maybe 3-4 times a year. Worth it.
Both sizes of Domino machine reside in the shed. It did cost a bit to acquire them. On the other hand, they will hold a good resale value, especially longer-term. I bough my smaller Domino machine for £450 some ten or eleven years ago. As a Festool used only by an amateur, it's remains in very good nick and would likely fetch at least that amount on ebay 2nd-hand, as new ones are now well over £800.
Not that I'll ever sell it. :-)
The Domino works as an M&T solution in the vast majority of cases requiring M&Ts. Even the more traditional M&Ts can be supported by a Domino in that the initial mortise can be made and placed very accurately, even if you want to square it off and make a traditional tenon to fit rather than use a Domino insert.
A Domino is a lot faster than drilling multiple holes on a drill press then tidying them up with a chisel. And a lot faster even than a router with a double pin or fence & spiral bit set-up, mostly due to the faster setting up of the Domino machine compared to the routing arrangement; and the one-pass-per-mortise operation.
Hand tooled tenons are perhaps the easier half of a full hand tooled M&T. You can make and place them very accurately with saw and router plane, for instance. Digging a good mortise hole with a mortise chisel is not quite so straightforward - seems to require far more practice to avoid the wonky hole.
I've made many successful tenons (including haunched and slightly more complex configurations) on a Woodrat. The 'rat is easy to set up and use; and very accurate once you understand it's procedures. The 'rat can also be mounted high on a wall so that even a bed-rail could have tenons routed on to either end - although you do need to stand on a step to place yourself high enough to operate the beast.
I've never used (or seen used) a Panto router. It looks like one of those good ideas that requires better engineering and operator skill than it's likely to have or get. The Woodrat has a touch of that but nothing that can't easily be overcome with understanding. The Domino can be operated safely and effectively by anyone, within a few minutes of reading and practicing the procedures.
And the Domino can be taken to the workpiece, rather than having to take a workpiece to a machine needing an often complex permanent set up that might also have difficulty in taking certain configurations of workpiece brought to it.
Lataxe
Should have bought a festool domino
It’s amazing and
No set up
Good luck
Michael in bx
LOL. While I appreciate everyone's endorsement of the Domino and yes in hindsight I probably should have spent my money on a Domino, consider it my "I should have had a V8" moment (I wonder how many will remember that) but I didn't and finding another $1,500 to get one now would not be easy. The Pantorouter was a spur of the moment purchase that came about while researching shop made horizontal mortisers, I read a few reviews, including one here on FW that spoke highly of it and just by luck or ill fortune I stumbled upon one on an auction site for half the cost of a new one and the fear of missing out on a one in million opportunity caused me to click the damn button so I'm stuck with it. Now I'm simply trying to find out if my problems are user error or systemic with the machine.
There are many iterations of the Pantorouter, which makes it difficult to draw any conclusions based on the information you have provided.
I felt compelled to weigh in on this topic as I consider the pantorouter the best value for money machine investment I have ever made and it’s getting an unfair treatment by uninformed amateurs who don’t even own the machine. As a professional kitted out with over $50000 in machines I am amazed at the precision and repeatability I get from this little kit.
I own the most recent model with the 43mm euro router mount, a quality Mafell router, good spiral bits and the latest templates with the tapered sides. This setup works well, BUT if you use a low quality router(vibration), straight bits(cutting vibration) or an older models, your experience may vary. I can imagine that since the build quality is quite light, minimising any wobble and vibration could be key to getting perfect repeatable results.
I agree with the comment directly above.
The principle on a pantograph is simple and can produce very good repeatable results.
Without knowing exactly what problems you're having, and without knowing exactly what iteration of pantorouter you have, it's hard to pinpoint where your problem lies.
I would take a very close look at all the bearings. Is there any slop? Is there any flex in the set up that shouldn't be there? Is the router mount secure? Are you using the appropriate bits? Is the workpiece perpendicular to the pantograph?
A pantorouter's achilles heel is the number of moving parts. a bad bearing or improper alignment can telegraph throughout giving less than stellar results. However, once it's dialed in, it should give you more repeatably precise mortises and tenons than a domino jointer.
If it were me (and I often make bad decisions, so take that for what it's worth), I would break down the whole unit and meticulously reassemble it looking for slop or possible improvements. It might take a while, but once dialed in, it may prove to be exactly the right tool for the job.
Good luck.
I will start by saying that I am a wood working novice. I purchased a panto router about 4 months ago and couldn’t be happier. I have barely scratched the surface of what that thing is capable of doing. Even with my limited skills I get extremely good results. It is most useful in situations where you need to make 2 or more of the same joint. If you are spending hours on trying to fine tune your joinery there is probably something wrong with either your machine or your technique. I would recommend going through the entire machine set up process as if you were unboxing it for the first time to get everything properly aligned. It will only take about an hour and should be well worth your time. The instruction/operation manual is extremely well put together and easy to navigate. If this doesn’t get you to where you need to be contact pantorouter. Those guys are extremely helpful as well as knowledgeable. The bottom line is if I was able to cut 110 perfect M&Ts on a recent crib build you should be able to as well. I suck at wood working.
First... godel_escher: interesting name handle; as these two individuals were simply Great in their own right and context.
For the amateur, the Pantorouter may not be a great choice; however, it serves a different user than a Domino; and I applaud the response by user-7074606. The simple fact is that a Domino is a damn expensive machine for making M&T, and unless you make hundreds per year, it probably isn't cost effective... if that's what you're looking for.
I like the idea of tearing-down the machine, and looking for operating issues; and perhaps an in-between project would be to focus on making common template combinations, for later use: for example, I have a commission on the horizon for several large window frames: sapele-based. This is at the outer edge of what my D500 can handle, and may push me into the D700. This would be a good venue for the Pantorouter.
user-7074606 and godelescher
Thank you for responding, that is what I was hoping for to hear from someone who is successfully using a Pantorouter.
I really want to like this machine, but my experience so far has been less than satisfying.
I have over 35 years experience in home improvement and woodworking and am lucky enough to have a shop full of professional quality tools so I'm no stranger to tuning and adjusting tools, but this one has eluded me.
One of the problems has been repeatability. I am currently making a project that has 3" wide face frames, for lack of a better word, that needed to be flush on 3 sides and for the life of me, and more hours tweaking that I care to admit I could not get it tuned in. Countless test cuts using cutoffs from the same stock as my final pieces would eventually eventually get close, only to have the production pieces give entirely different results.
Most of my issues I feel are with the tenons at this point yet if I adjust to center the tenons it will knock out the mortises. I've also noticed that with only slight side pressure you can make the guide bearing slide up the guide bushing a noticeable amount almost an 1/8" I'm also having an issue with the shoulders not being perfectly flush with noticeable bumps in many of the shoulders despite numerous passes to try and clean them up.
The machine has been meticulously assemble and set-up twice now to no avail.
Any ideas?
the clue is the play in the guide bearing movement. ANY PLAY ANYWHERE will lead to disapointment.
Pizzicato, I agree the play I found in the guide bearing is troublesome, I'm not sure it's the cause of the tenons not being centered over the thickness of my work piece yet the mortises are. The other problem is not being centered across the width of my work piece despite having carefully checked the center location with the router centering bit and registering both the rail and stile against the same fence location.
Please call us! We are here for you nearly every day and can help to get your PantoRouter dialed-in in a matter of minutes. Thousands are making perfect joints, accurately, safely and repeatably and we are 100% confident that we can help you get yours adjusted just as well.
We can do a video chat with you to walk you through the setup. It's super-easy and once you have it locked-in, it'll operate accurately for years, just like everyone else's.
Call us at 877-333-7150 If we don't pick right up, we'll call you back very shortly.
Email us at [email protected]
We guarantee every PantoRouter to operate as accurately as those in use in professional and hobby wood shops all over the world. By the way, we love the Domino too, but it has a tough time making box joints, variably-spaced dovetails, or integral mortise and tenon on compound angles. Wait till you see our new slot mortise template too! It makes Domino size mortises in seconds, or inch-size slots for your own floating tenons. It's a real game-changer!
Please contact us! We can help. We Want to help. We Love to help!
Thank you
Mac Sheldon
WoodCraft Solutions LLC
http://www.PantoRouter.com
One more thing. Please send us the serial number or a couple of photos of the used PantoRouter you purchased. We can help you to bring it up to current standards as every innovation and improvement we've made to the PantoRouter over the years is backwards compatible.
Please give us a call or email and let's get your PantoRouter working well for you. You'll love it once it's functioning as it should!
Mac Sheldon
http://www.PantoRouter.com
[email protected]
877-333-7150
PantoRouter
Thank you for your kind and unexpected offer. Having bought my PantoRouter used I did not expect any manufacturer support. It's really nice to see a company that is willing to go above and beyond, its all too rare these days. I will be in touch soon when the work schedule permits.
I have been researching pantorouters so I am interested to learn if you were able to resolve your accuracy problems.
Please give us a call or email if you’d like to learn more about the PantoRouter. We have never seen or heard of a problem we can’t help the owner correct in a matter of minutes.
Also, read our reviews on our website from real customers. There’s a reason we have 100% 5-star ratings. The PantoRouter is a highly accurate, repeatable, safe and fun tool to use for Mortise and tenon, box joints and dovetails, plus a whole lot more!
Follow us on Instagram to see what customers are making with the PantoRouter too. @pantorouter.USA
(877) 333-7150
[email protected]
Thanks!
Our pleasure. Just let us know when you're ready.
Well I’m relearning woodworking from high school days, that was a few days ago to say the least. I just purchased the Pantorouter and could not be happier with the results. It took a couple of attempts to zero the template holder but once done I’ve created this table with the pantorouter with minimum work to clean up the end of the joints. It took minutes to change from the mortise and tenons to the box joint. I will make good use of this machine.
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