Replies

1. 
   RickL | Sep 29, 2004 05:49pm | #1

   Do s search with google. There is a felder user forum located on yahoo which can be located pretty easily by searching their user groups. Searching google should turn up some more. I've seen them so I know they are out there.

1. 
   IainEdwards | Sep 29, 2004 06:24pm | #2

   rick thanks I'll take a look.....but I'm after some good subjective views from this group ...iain 

1. 
   RickL | Sep 29, 2004 08:37pm | #3

   I recall seeing a forum dedicated to the subject based out of the UK I believe. I'm sure there are a lot more of those machines in use in Europe than over here.

2. 
   wop | Sep 29, 2004 10:42pm | #4

           I have a Felder combination machine It's great. Before this I had two Minimax combinations. Hammer is Felders cheap line stay away from it ,it's not worth the price. Knapp, Well just out of curiosity I went and took a good look at their stuff at the Milan wood technology trade fair this spring, not bad, but for the cost Felder is better. Felder has a good line of accessories that makes it possible to work without ever having to ask someone to give you a hand for the big stuff(table extensions etc...). The fit and finish of the felder is exceptional as well , You never have to muck about with adjustments, you just start to work.

                                                                               Philip

1. 
   IainEdwards | Sep 30, 2004 12:13am | #5

   Philip

   Interesting comment regarding the hammer, I was looking at their 'expert' line and for the price of a k700 you can get the saw/spindle b3L combination...It looks to as though the hammer is the k700's predecessor, is that a correct assumption?

   what are your thoughts regarding accuracy and consistency, is it significantly better, given your experience with other machines?

   Have you had any failures? What about service support/customer care?

   Sorry that this seems a bit of an inquisition

   Thanks Iain

1. 
   BenchMarkPhil | Sep 30, 2004 12:28am | #6

   The Hammer is not the predecessor of any felder product, it came afterwards. The hammer line is on the whole a notch above the typical unisaur product line, the price reflects that. The same is true of the felder, it is better than the hammer line and the price reflects this as well. The hammer is around the price and quality mark of the mini-max.

   As for euro machines in general, the ones mentioned here are generally better and have some advanced features not commonly found on other non-euro equipment. They also have peculiarities that you’ll have to discover and figure out you are okay with them or not. The also have an aspect or two that most would consider to be below that of your typical asian import or NA made gear. Although they look similar, the different brands have some subtle differences that may be very important to you. You’ll have to dig these differences out yourself.

   I have more euro related machine info on my web site if you are interested, these include reviews of hammer, felder, and rojek saws.

   PMB

   http://benchmark.20m.com

1. 
   IainEdwards | Sep 30, 2004 01:11am | #7

   Phil, took a look at the comparisons thanks....Iain

2. 
   wop | Sep 30, 2004 04:19pm | #8

       The Hammer line is relatively new it was a cost cutting line designed to compete with Minimax and costs similar but... Minimax beats the hell out of that line for fit and finish and is overall a better buy. I've heard a number of complaints about hammer even to the point of the "precision"grinding on the cast iron tops.

    As far as accuracy both Minimax and Felder are exceptional and I presume that Knapp is as well. If you are looking only at a saw I would go with the Minimax. If you are looking at the combo with the shaper, the Felder shaper has much more capability.I.E. changeable spindles and a router spindle,rear tilting,fine adjustment hood that holds its setting even when removed and then replaced. Consistency, I had to do some very small adjustments on the planer this summer ,first time I adjust anything in three and a half years.

      Both have excellent customer service. The only time I had a problem with the Felder was once when it just wouldn't restart after a changeover. I called the dealer.then 5 minutes later an engineer from Felder in Austria called back.It turned out just to be a safety stop feature in the eletronic controlls that blocks every thing in the case of an error. I just had to turn off the general switch for 3 min. then turn it back on.

        There are a number of companies that make similar machines here, that often are similar quality, but when it comes to needing a replacement part you can still get parts for 25 year old felder or minimax machines not so with most of the others. In the end ,as with just about ever thing ,you get what you pay for.

                                                                                 Philip

1. 
   IainEdwards | Sep 30, 2004 07:14pm | #9

   Philip

   Given that the Felder/Hammer come out of the same factory, your comments reinforce my thinking that the hammer has had some major corners cut to produce it for the price....I'm due to have a good look at these machines shortly....I want to go armed with a users persective..but at the moment I favour the felder even though it'll max the budget.....thanks Iain

1. 
   wop | Sep 30, 2004 11:48pm | #10

      Yeah,   I know the feeling the Felder sure maxed my budget as well, my alternative was the Minimax CU 35 (I think that was the number ,anyway, it was the 35cm planer width) that was almost compareable to felder in features and a bit cheaper with a wider planer. Now I'm glad I picked Felder,but I sweated over it at the time.

                                                                                Philip

3. 
   GSA | Oct 01, 2004 09:07am | #11

   Lain,

   I own a felder CF 731 Professional for about one and half years.  I first saw the felder at their West Sacramento, CA office about eight years ago and immediately knew when I was financially able to buy one I would.  I was enrolled at the local community college cabinet making program. One of my instructors owned a felder, so we made a field trip to felder's west coast office.  I have used delta and powermatic cabinet saws and a euro style sliding table saw when I was taking cabinet making classes.  I have owned a powematic 66 tablesaw prior to owning a felder. 

   When I retire in 4 years I will take my part time cabinet/furniture making business to full time business.  I chose the felder because I felt that this is machine that will satisfy my needs to produce a progfessional product and enhance my abilties to ensure I have a profit making business.

   MY experience with the felder sales and service staff has been excellant. I had some problems with the trucking company who was to deliver my machine, the felder staff stepped up to plate and made sure the machine was delivered as promised.  They have been very accessable when I needed questions answered and when I have bought additional equipment such as shaper cutters they have provided excellant service.

   The equipment has lived up to its reputation.  It is a pleasure to have a 12 inch jointer and plainer.  The quality of the finish is such that the amount of finish sanding needed after using the plainer or jointer is less than other machines that I  have used.  The shaper is easy to set up and the fence is a definet asset plus the changing of the shaper spindles is very easy.  The saw has llived up to its reputation.  Having a sliding 2 meter table has been a boon to my cabinet amaking projects.

   Having said all these positive things, this equipment is not for every body, beginning with  the price.  Nothing is cheap on this piece of equipment and none of the accessories are a bargain.  If you are not used to using this type of equipment from europe,  there will be a learning curve.  Especially if your prior experience is with traditional american equipment.  Also, Fine Woodworking had a good article doing a comparison of the various euro style combination machines. You may want to locate the issue as part of your research.

   Greg

1. 
   IainEdwards | Oct 01, 2004 12:53pm | #12

   Greg/Philip

   I'm resigned to the cost, originally attracted to the hammer based simply on cost/functionality your comments support a felder decision....Greg do you share Philips view of Hammer?

   My experience is all European/GB...I've always used a slider, currently a Sedgwick which is a fantastic ripping/joiners saw, but it lacks the accuracy/consistency I need in the cross cut, irrespective of how many times I set it up. Frankly I kick myself for not doing this type of research back when I bought it.

   Thanks Iain

      

4. 
   BillLindau | Oct 01, 2004 02:19pm | #13

   Iain, I have the Felder KF700 saw shaper, with a 6'sliding tabel. It is an excellent machine. I looked around quite a bit before I bought it.  At first I had some trouble with the inboard phase convertor. The president of the company was calling me up and they sent a highly trained technicain out several times to fix the problem. Finally they reprogrammed the convertor and it has been trouble free for the last two years. If you have three phase available that would be the route to go. You can get twice the horsepower for the same money. My unit has two 4.8hp motors which do the job that I ask them to but I have learned not to crowd them.  I also have a planer and a separate jointer by Mini Max. They are excellent machines, maybe a half of a step down from the Felder. Same deal with the motors, I just don't crowd them. Instead of phase convertors they have an extra capacitor for start up.     The combo of saw and shaper works for me, because I don't use the shaper all the time. But I would never get a jointer-planer combo. I jump back and forth between them way too much. One thing that is great about MiniMax is the Tersa-head cutters, disposable blades, you can change out a set of four in less than 5 minutes and they set themselves to within .003".  The knives have two edges, when the first is dull you flip it over, when the second is dull you through it away. It's cheaper than sharpening the same expensive knife over and over. Bill

1. 
   wop | Oct 02, 2004 12:21am | #16

    On the planer blades Felder uses the Esta system which isn't quite as fast but still can be changed in less than five minutes. Here it costs me twice as much as sharpening standard planer blades but the disposable are worth twice that again in time saved and convienence. Tersa or Esta, what ever they are worth it in a second.

       Actually tersa are a bit better in the fact that you can just keep around a set (even mix matched to eleminate nicks) of old blades just for rough work on dirty wood or even rough sawn stuff , then transfer to good blades for final planing. Like I said time saved is worth a fortune.

                                                     Philip

    P.s. Now I even have a sharpening service that will sharpen my esta blades twice which makes them really economical.

1. 
   IainEdwards | Oct 04, 2004 01:39pm | #17

   I echo Bill, I use a Rojek machine with a tersa block thats really good for setup...Iain

5. 
   cjthescot | Oct 01, 2004 03:01pm | #14

   We have 2 Felder spindlemoulders and a universal machine. I looked at the Hammer machines and being cheaper than Felder they are certainly not as good in quality. Felder make, in my opinion very solid and accurate machines. The accessories are very well thought out and again of a high quality.  We have a 10 hp spindle with electric rise and fall and find the electric adjustment disappointing. It is not consistent . Worryingly, a number of weeks ago the main motor separated from the spindle shaft as we were changing a block, luckily the machine was not spinning! We are waiting to get confirmation that this was " a first". Otherwise I am very pleased with them.

   Good luck,

1. 
   IainEdwards | Oct 01, 2004 04:22pm | #15

   Bill/Callum

   Guy's thanks for your comments it all helps...............Callum where in Scotland are you...any chance of a visit to see these things in action?.....Iain

6. 
   jazzdogg | Oct 04, 2004 07:18pm | #18

   Iain,

   We have Holz-Her panel saws (both horizontal and vertical), panel router, and edge banding machines at Palomar College, and they withstand being used and abused by 600-odd woodworking students very well. Service is pricey, but infrequent.

   We've had some fantastic old Oliver thickness planers and bandsaws forever, and they seem virtually bulletproof. Our 16" SCMI jointers work well, but require a lot of TLC, which is more difficult than it should be because their documentation is sorely lacking.

   Most of the equipment we've acquired over the past few years is from Laguna Tools - bandsaws from 14" to 28", and this year, two tablesaws, a jointer and a thickness planer. They stand up very well to student use, and their documentation is improving steadily.

   Hope this is helpful to you,

   -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.