Hello All,
I am new to this forum so I don’t know if this subject has been covered in the past.
I am looking for the perfect dovetail jig and I don’t know if it exists. I have been looking at 4; The Leigh, The Keller Jig (16″), The Porter Cable 24″ Omni Jig, and the Incra 16″ Ultra Jig. I have been very patient and taken my time researching them. I have purchased owners manuals for each and read them from cover to cover.
After all of this, I still don’t know which way to go. I don’t see myself making small things like jewelery boxes or trinket boxes. I will probably be making medium to large size projects.
Each jig has its good and bad points. They all do things differently. The Keller can only do through dovetails, where as the others offer more types of joints. Although I am not flush, price is not an issue. I like my tools and quality is very important to me.
Would any one care to comment on their experiences with any of the above jigs? Maybe someone has worked with a couple of them.
Thank you for your input.
Alex
Replies
Hey! You forgot the Akeda, see message 9713.1, amongst others.
I have used the Incra pro. It took me a couple of projects to get the handle on this tool. There is definetely a learning curve to it's use but after you have used it a few times it is really easy to use.
I just finished a multiple bookcase project where I cut over 45 through dovetail joints. This type of project was ideal for the Incra, where you need to make repeated cuts on the same width of material. I cut them all in an afternoon.
When I first started using the Incra I was a little disappointed because of the learning curve, but once you get over this period it's easy.
Also, there is one area where it might be diffucult to cut joints. If you have a large piece to cut it can be hard to control. With the Incra you are moving the wood over the router so, if you have a piece that is 20" wide by 48" tall, the small right angle fence just does not support the wood that well.
The Leigh is awefully good, and it is a fix the part, move the router deal. Some large factories use it, as well as us little guys.
There is no ideal jig until they find a way of cutting half blind DTs with sharp corners.
Hand cut is still best, and these days seems like a lot of people have picked it up, it isn't just for "gods" any more.
ON wide panels you can lay them out for occasional pins, and cut the watse with power tools, it is almost as fast as a jig.
They can be cut on a bandsaw to a high degree of accuracy, with the boards flat, not on end. This guy has instructions in his book, and it has been covered in FWW.
http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/davidcharlesworth.htm
I just purchased the Porter Cable jig and love it. I spent one evening setting up the jug and my router to get a perfect dovetail. I made three drawers with different thickness the next night, everything worked well. After my first night of setting up the depth of the router bit. I decided to purchase a new router for general routing and leave the bit in the router dedicating it to dovetailing. It was only a $65.00 router to it wasn't that big of a deal. I just read the forum on hand cutting dovetails and although it may have a lot of personal satisfaction, theres no way I'd spend the time when I can dovetail a drawer now in 10 minutes.
Which ever jig on your list you purchase I don't think you'll go wrong. The Porter cable was the least expensive and is used in a couple of cabinet shops I questioned before purchasing my jig.
Enjoy!
Dave
Dave,
Do you have the big Porter Cable, or the cheapie? I've got the cheap one and have never used it. Started reading the book, put the thing back in the box and haven't touched it since.
The reason I ask is that if you actually do cut decent half-blind dovetails with it, it may be worth my while to try to learn how to use it.
Jeff
BTW, given the amount of patience I've developed over the years, I long ago decided that a Leigh would be not only a waste of money for me, but probably would bring on a heart attack or a stroke.
I have the $110.00 12 inch jig. I'd say half my setup time was just turning the screws to put it togather.
Dave
I reviewed the Leigh and the Akeda. Thought I wanted the Akeda, but after some study determined there was much more flexibility with the Leigh. And, if you get the Akeda and all of potential bits, etc., you need, it will cost a lot more than the Leigh. Also, it is shorter.
Took an afternoon course on how to use the Leigh at a woodworking store and all the mystery was removed.
It works great. I am still learning how to use it, but I am glad I chose it.
Alan -- planesaw
Festo is listing a dovetailing jig at its web site.
Learn how to cut them by hand first and then you'll be more apt to make a good judgement about which jig to buy.
You are working from virtually no point of reference other than reading about making something that you've never attempted.
I have a Keller and think its great- but like others say theres nothing out there that will make Dovetails that look hand cut
That's my next project get a good saw and learn to cut them by hand.
Hand cut Dovetails looks so much better.
You might look at one more jig. The Woodrat has been advertised in FW for the past year and I had to give it a try. It is very good at some things and much more versitile then most. It can cut dovetails at any spacing and with different dovetail angles. The others only cut one angle, 8 degree I think with the leigh. They even have a 9 degree for very small dovetails that look better / different then any other jig. You can also stack the boards for the pins and cut all at once, so several drawers the same size would be quicker. The set up also let you cut mortices and tenons that are very accurate. Like any jig it does have its limits. The learning curve is a little higher then some, but no more the the liegh, and half blind dovetails need to be finish with a chisel, mine haven't come out very good yet. More a testament to me being in a hurry than anything else. There was mention of the jig on this forum several months ago and referenced a demo -www.woodshopdemos.com (just a guess) that had a very good write about it. My experience closely mirrored his experience as far a learning curve and results. Just more food for thought.
John
I have had some experience with the Leigh jig and will be quick to say that " yes it does do a fine job cutting dovetails", as Norm has shown us many times on the New Yankee Workshop. However, if you're planning on doing traditional woodwork like the old timers, with those really narrow pins (1/16 - 1/8 ), forget the Leigh jig. I think the narrowest pin you can cut is 5/16 wide, which in my opinion ,is to wide for traditional work. This past winter when I was visiting my son in the south we had the occasion to stop in the Orlando Woodcraft store. He stopped at the Leigh jig display to look it over. They had some sample joints cut in pine to demonstrate the versitility of the jig along with dovetails cut in a piece of mahogany. I picked up the mahogany piece and looked at it and said to my son" these dovetails weren't cut with the jig. They were done by hand. You can't cut dovetail pins this narrow with that jig". A salesman standing nearby overheard my remark to my son and came blustering over to set me straight. He proceeded to tell me that these joints were all cut with the jig. I begged to differ. I told him the narrowest pin you can cut is 5/16"and these were about 3/16". We argued back and forth a bit,neither giving ground,until I pulled the mahogany dovetails apart and showed him. It was very plain to see that they weren't cut with the jig. He put his tail between his legs and walked away and we left the store before we got tossed out.
Good story, and I'd add to the orginal poster that if everything about your project will be machine manufactured, from stock preparation to the joinery, then why not just buy a piece of manufactured furniture?
There is no skill in accumulating a mini-manufacturing facility in your garage. All you need is a checkbook.
Charles-
...why not just buy a piece of manufactured furniture?
I agree completely with the thrust of your recent few posts, but your question quoted here is one that goes to the heart of the reason for hand-crafted furniture.
Indeed, what advantage does handmade furniture have over factory-built stuff? I think it pretty much comes down to design. Factories can beat the hand craftsman on almost all other elements--materials purchase and preparation, joinery precision and effectiveness, construction economy, finish (in most cases), and most of the other mechanical aspects.
I'd like to see much more discussion here about design and the execution of design. At least get the craft-to-tools percentage above a single digit.
Edited 4/21/2003 4:03:35 PM ET by Donald C. Brown
I agree with you Don and would add further - why farm the joinery out to a machine, that's the fun part, or one of the fun parts. This is especially true if woodworking is a pure hobby.
I don't have a problem with dovetail jigs per se. I'd just urge the poster to know how to cut them himself.
This is really an important question.
I was in a production "woodworking" shop the other day. I put the word in quotes because most of their machines were computer-driven. They'd put a piece of wood on a platform, punch a bunch of numbers into the keyboard at hit the green START button, and the machine would process the wood and spit the finished product out on the other side. Is this what all of us ultimately are aiming for in woodworking? I doubt it.
I think of this when I look at my own shop. Do I want to be a machine operator or a woodworker?
I'm not sure there is a clear distinction. Chisels and handplanes and handsaws are tools also, just as the noisy router is. The fact that one woodworker becomes proficient using a tool called a router and another becomes proficient using a tool called a handplane doesn't seem like a terribly important distinction - one is powered with electricity and the other with muscles. Either way, we are developing proficiency not with the wood directly but with a tool used to work the wood. Short of gnawing on the wood with our teeth, we're always going to be using tools and calling that woodworking.
There is, in fact, a skill to using a table saw just as there is a skill to using a handplane. And for that matter, I'm sure there is a skill to getting the best results with that computer-driven behemoth in the production shop. That is, I bet one operator of that machine can get a better result than another operator.
In my own amateur woodworking I would like to move more toward hand tools at least for some jobs because of the quietness, the lack of dust flying everywhere, and the satisfaction they give - for example, this weekend I jointed some boards quickly with a handplane and thought that was pretty cool. I am also looking for high-quality handsaws (where the hell do you get them anymore?), which can be quicker, quieter, and much less dangerous than their electric counterparts. On the other hand, when I got the rough 8/4 mahogany from the mill I definitely chose to run it through my noisy planer rather than mill it all by hand with my scrub plane and jack plane.
For each of us it should be a balance. As I have read your recent posts, I believe your point is that this balance can be reached only if the woodworker tries it both ways, and it's a shame that so many people never get to experience the handwork part because they focus only on machines. I agree with this 101% based on my own experience.
I am pretty hopeless with design. That's an area where my skill level can only go up. Any suggestions, Don?
I totally agree with you.
Design is the main reason I decided to get into woodworking. I could never find what I wanted in the stores. On the same topic, would be size. So many times I have seen a great piece, but the size is all wrong.Besides furniture, making your own built-ins is another reason for woodworking.
I have the Leigh jig. Learned how to use in in about 2 hours in a class I took. I have also tried hand cutting dovetails. To say they were a mess, could not describe how bad they turned out.
At this time in my life, getting a project finished that looks good is my main priority. I am sure sometime in the future I will put more time into learning to use hand tools, but for now I am more concerned with the design and finished project. I am not to the point that I am making heirlooms to be handed down.
The Leigh makes great dovetails, that work for what I do.
Oriole
I would agree with that completely.
Tis a shame that people more skilled than us amateurs still knock machine made joints. Some of us ain't got the time to cut everything by hand or even the skill. I know that hand cut can be as quick as some jigs and machines but when the check book can afford a dedicated machine to take care of the bits that we need to get done so that we can get further on with the project and to the parts that we actually enjoy doing( cause we are more confident doing em) then I see no wrong.
If we followed the practices of all that preached maybe we ought to kill and butcher all our own meat and not bother going to the butchers. Mind you I like my joints to look like them. Perhaps I need another book.
Indeed, what advantage does handmade furniture have over factory-built stuff? I think it pretty much comes down to design. Factories can beat the hand craftsman on almost all other elements--materials purchase and preparation, joinery precision and effectiveness, construction economy, finish (in most cases), and most of the other mechanical aspects.
I'd like to see much more discussion here about design and the execution.
I really don't agree with you on this stuff. The small shop can get much better material than most factories. The big issue in manufacturing and marketing is to have something you can consistantly get. I can consistantly get anything in small qauntities. Big operations can only get a very small subset of that. An extreme example would be Brazilian Rosewood. I can probably find as much of that as I would ever need, but in big time quantity forget it. On the flipside a lot of big factories are now using rubberwood. Looks great as long as you can't see it.
Preparation, is much to my advantage. i can do many of the same things a big factory could do, like mill it on loud machines with no thought to anything. Or I can take it down by hand to get perfect pieces within sub thou amounts. I can get much chrisper results. I can also handle very small stock, both for sizing, and joints. I always pay very high attention to getting the best piece out of stock I have. Sometimes I need to use handtools to make cuts i couldn't efficiently make on machines.
Machine joints are very limited, precison can be had, as it can for me, but effectiveness, you have to be kidding. There are hundreds, of joint possibilities, machines have only a few. They are also stuck doing bad things like half round dovetails. Jointing boards with a handplane leaves far cleaner stronger joints, no clamps required for instance. Overall, factories are run by smart workers who know a lot about factories, and other workers whose inteligence is being overlooked. That's how you get productivity. What you don't have is anyone who is working wood who knows what they are doing, or at least is applying that knowledge.
Construction economy if that means cheaper is probably true. But of a dollar spent, how much ends up in the piece itself? Very little. Also, since the vast majority of quality furniture will never be made in a factory, or even by machine, all the economy really applies to is a very small subset of furniture.
Finishing is totaly in favour of handwork there isn't a single quality finish that is applied by machine except possibly lacquer, and the quality of that is very short term. The new UV finishes are very stable, but they don't look good.
Really none of this is a surprise. Machines are good at driving down prices, in ways no hands can match. Even if there are some hand advantages, a machine could always be designed to do that job, if the financial reward was present. But conversely the eye loves quality and diversity, and there is no end to that in sight, there is no catching up with what has been done, or can be done in the future.
I saw a great CNC presnetation from a top guitar maker who had bought a fadal, and was into it in ways you can't begin to imagine. This guy had started out with hand tools, but went cnc. Anyway someone asked him a revealing question at the end of the presentation: "If you had to choose between continuing either your cnc work, or you guitar work without cnc, which would you choose?" Now this is a guy with guitars in the hands of great artists. His answer was he would stay with the cnc. For the time being I don't imagine his guitars are suffereing, but he is now more creatively involved with the machines than the output. He is also making more money.
Thank you for your very thoughtful and informative response. I deliberately made my assertions broad (though I do believe them in the broad sense) hoping to provoke such a further discussion.
A big error I made in my comments: I failed to mention that in the "factory" category I include very high-end manufacturers such as Thos. Moser. I certainly didn't have Mazor Masterpieces in mind as the representative factory producer. Chippendale and those guys ran factories in their day. If I may, I will refine my distinction to that between the lone craftsman or small shop on the one hand, and the large shop/factory producing large numbers of stock designs on the other.
I might quibble with a few of your points, but they would just be quibbles.
Charles had made some perceptive comments about many of us seeming to limit our goals to acquiring the tools and jigs and packaged plans and magic formulas to, in effect, run a small factory. I do think that design is a distinct area in which the craftsman can excel compared to the factory. I would like to trade in a dozen of the threads on commercial tools and jigs for one good one on design.
Sounds like we are on the same page. Like just about everyone, I have machines, handtools, and my eye on what is happening with CNC.
One thing that does guide me is the difference between production and say a hobby. Even as one person home shops, we have that kind of choice, the tension between having to finish a really big project, say a boat or some bookshelves for 10 000 books, you end up over on the production side. But if I was just doing this for a personal entertainment, then why would I want the agravation of pushing stuff over machines, aways thinking about what comes next, not enjoying the thing in hand, at the time. The whole thing could then be an aesthetic experience, from the environment, to the tools, design, material, and methods, through to the results.
Donald, I have to chime in with a little rant of my own, and agree with you on the point about there being too little attention paid to design -- and by design I mean both the "artistic" side of the process and the... um... shall I call it "mechanical" (i.e., the best joint for the purpose, load, etc.) side of things.
The attention on techniques and tools, over discussions of design, is symptomatic of the woodworking world as a whole, not just Knots. When I began making furniture several years ago I, too, was focused on tools and techniques because I wanted to learn "how" to make furniture. Now I'm more concerned about how to create the furniture I like, how to achieve the look and feel I'm after, find my own "voice," if you will.
I have scoured bookstores, magazines, the Internet and all sorts of sources to get information on furniture design. As far as I can tell, there are very few good books devoted to the subject. I have purchased a few, and cannot recommend any of them weakly enough. Short of going back to school for a degree in... what? Interior Design? Industrial Engineering?... there isn't much out there for people who discover woodworking later in life.
Of course, the information IS out there... it just means scouring through loads of magazines, books and other sources, on subjects like architecture, interior design, human anatomy, furniture history, landscaping, crafts, art, etc., etc., etc., to ultimately, over time, cobble together the bits and pieces of information that will help one understand why certain shapes and combinations and colors work better together than others.
There are some classes and workshops out there, I should add, that are not part of college programs. Next month I'll be taking a class on "Design Skills," taught by Garrett Hack, at the Marc Adams School of Woodworking. I'm looking forward to that. The Furniture Society also has conferences and publications that occasionally talk about design issues, in between the techniques and the academic exercises.
OK, rant over. I've been in the shop for some long hours, lately, and haven't been visiting Knots much, so I needed to blow a little wind. Now it's back to the shop.
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
David-
Some years ago, several knowledgeable friends highly recommended a book, Designing Furniture, by Seth Stem. A Taunton Press book, I believe. My bookstores said it was out of print even then. This was in the days before the Net and Amazon.com, but I just looked on Amazon's site, and they offer several used copies from about $55 and up.
I have wondered for years why Taunton doesn't reissue it. Or maybe my friends were all wet.
Thanks for the reference, Donald. I'll go out hunting!
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
In the small workd category, I was speaking with an art university prof. about design, and a course or 2 I could take, and came up dry, but she did recommend that same book. I found it on Amazon, used only, and bought a copy, but it has not yet arrived. Soon, hopefully.
Alan
Alan, I'm looking forward to what you think of the book.
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
Dave,
I am about 1/2 through it now, and it has a pretty regimented approach to the design process, which may work well for my primarily left sided mind. Judging the quality of the instruction is tough for a newbie to design.
I am reading it in the context of designing a pair of bedside tables for a wedding present for son and daughter-in-law. Since I already have some materials, a wonderful wide piece of 4/4 curly maple, 6' x 16 1/2", and a bunch of very nice old mahogany. The design process is a bit more limited than if I were writing on a clean slate. And of course, as with any piece which is not primarily sculptural, there are functional requirements as well. A drawer, and a shelf for books, are both necessary. I am toying with the notion of elipses as a primary design element, but this will probably change a number of times. Veneering and bent lamination have also crossed my mind.
Alan
I for one really envy you folks who can design as well as build.
Mark,
I think we all try to do this unless we just build from another's print, with greater or lesser success. I find that my build skills far exceed my design skills. And since I am a left side guy, it is frequently hard to get the right side working properly or sufficiently. While I have copied, borrowed, etc., I have never built from a print, or a precisely measured drawing. Following another's rules in your avocation rubs me the wrong way.
Alan
Hi Alan... This thread has taken an interesting turn regarding the design/build process, and since one of the replies to Donald Brown's thread on the rounded square shape formed by combining ellipses mentions a shape that I'm using for a tabletop...
... I thought I'd post a few pics here, even if I'm not sure that this is the right place. (The piece isn't finished yet, so I don't think it's right for the Gallery.)
Anyway, the attached photos show a prototype end table I'm working on for an upcoming show. I'm doing a similar sofa table version. The process went something like this:
I'd been noodling on several unrelated design ideas: shaped or curved legs, combining metal with wood, the restrained use of figured veneers, etc. I'd even begun playing with some elliptical bent-laminated legs I'd made up for a coffee table, to see if they could work in a more vertical fashion -- but most important, I'd done a lot of sketching.
Suddenly, a bunch of ideas plopped into place with one sketch: twice-tapered legs, copper-pipe aprons, a slightly star-shaped tabletop with an inset, figured veneer top, etc. I then started working out some construction details -- but unable to work them all out in my head and on paper, I decided to go ahead with a prototype and let inspiration strike.
The attached pics show that prototype in progress, along with some of the results of letting inspiration strike. On the table top, for example (here, lacewood veneer on MDF, edged by walnut), you can see how the sides curve inward. That was part of the design. The inspiration was to bevel the edges slightly, by ten degrees, as you can see in the detail photo. This suddently gave the table an impression of lightness, almost floating, and emphasized a curve that could be now be seen from any angle.
I also realized, before I actually assembled the walnut legs and pipe aprons, that the pipes would not provide much resistance against twist. Imagine holding a bunch of straws in one hand -- they're quite strong if you try to bend them, but if you take both hands and twist the bundle, they'll skew all over the place. The solution was the addition of a lower shelf and small wood cross-beams across the tops of the legs, hidden just under the table top. (You can see the shelf lying below the table, and the cuts in the legs to house the shelf corners.) The cross beams also provide a great means of fixing the tabletop to the frame; the shelf was placed rather high on the table in order to avoid making heavy an otherwise light piece, and to help accentuate where the upper leg taper turns into the lower leg taper.
Anyway, this table, for me, demonstrates that line between working it out on paper and working it out in real materials. Both are necessary for a design to work, for me at least.
Oh, and yes -- the table is not yet finished. I still have the final assembly, scraping and finishing to go. And ignore the messy workshop -- I'm working under some major deadlines right now, and even though I know it's less efficient, it's easier to just let the tools and shavings lie right now. I'll clean up after May 11th!
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
This thread is venturing awfully far from the original. Should a new title be started so we don't lose the value of the comments in the title?
Sorry about that. I didn't see your comment before I posted. DM has now fixed it, I think. Back to the DT jigs, you guys.
Very nice, and quite different. I like the beveling of the top to emphasize the curve, and to de-emphasize weight. Were you able to get the legs out of 8/4 walnut, or did you have to laminate? How will the shelf, now structural, be affixed? I see the kerfs for them, but how will you secure them, to make them strong to avoid the feared twist? Dowels? Are you finishing the copper, or letting it patina? Or using a chemical to pre-patinize? What will be the finish? I've been meaning to respond to your thread on the class that was a disaster (with condolences, of course), but haven't had time, but will mention that several weeks ago I did a 2 day with Jeff Jewitt, at Thadeaus Stevens, in Lancaster Pa, with Steve Latta as the host/coordinator. It was fabulous. Great shop, BYW. Can't tell you how much I learned. Jeff is quite a gifted finisher, and teacher. A fun guy, and very approachable. It was the polar opposite of your experience, and I suspect that Steve Latta (with the volunteer help of several of the TS students, who were delightful young people, some quite good) made the logistics right. Latta will be presenting on Federal Inlay as the FS meeting, upcoming, and that I will attend. Saw some of his work just lying around, and it is quite impressive.
Keep us posted on your furhter development of this and related pieces. And, good sales, of course. One can't live on compliments alone.
Alan, in deference to Robbie's concerns, I'm going to answer your questions in a different thread, entitled "Answers to s4s table questions."
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
I like the hell out of the table, FWIW. I might have considered making the legs a little slimmer at their thickest part. They seem just a little too bulky up top.
Thanks Charles, I really appreciate your feedback. And I tend to agree with you on the thickness of the legs -- for the sofa table version everything is scaled up slightly, given the different dimensions (taller, skinnier, longer), but I'm holding true to the leg thickness -- the end result being a proportionally slimmer leg.
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
To add to my reply of yesterday I would like to make this comment: You say you won't be making small things like jewerly boxes. Your focus will be on medium to large projects. I should point out that nearly all projects have drawers,both small and large, and a drawer is simply a box without a top. I think that sometime down the line you're going to find it neccessary to cut dovetails by hand. This was a shocker; a couple of episodes ago even Norm realized that his Leigh jig wasn't up to cutting the joints on the small drawer he was making. He actually resorted to hand tools to cut the dovetails. Well, almost all by hand. He used his router to remove some of the waste,but I could see him beam with pride at those dovetails he just cut by hand.
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