Replies

1. 
   RickL | Apr 01, 2007 05:15am | #1

   Do folks really think this Domino is that innovative? The slot mortiser and loose tenons goes back to the 50's. The only real difference is the slot mortiser was stationary and you made your own tenon material. The Domino is a portable tool and they provide the tenons. Brillant marketing strategy. Long after you have gotten payback from your Domino they still will sell you the tenons. Granted the slot mortisers were quite q bit more expensive but plenty of folks found plenty of simple ways to duplicate the process for a reasonable cost.

   Everyone I know has been using loose tenons for at least 25 years. The other advantage of the slot mortiser is it's a doweling machine. The other thing I prefer with a slot mortiser and making my own tenons is I can make larger tenons instead of doubling up the smaller Domino tenons. We typically keep a box of premade loose tenon material on hand. It doesn't take much to make it.

1. 
   astro | Apr 01, 2007 05:29am | #2

   I think those are all very good points. Certainly the concept of loose tenon joinery is hardly new and there are a lot of ways to do it: router and no jig, router and homemade jig, router and fancy $700 FMT jig, horizontal mutirouter, slot mortiser, etc. The thing about all these techniques, though, is that there is significant activation energy and setup involved.

   For example, I happen to have a Delta hollow chisel mortiser which is no miracle tool but works pretty well. Its really not a big deal to punch out a couple mortises with it but it still "feels" like a major step in construction. Set up the machine, mark out the mortises, plunge cut a couple times for each mortise, clean things up with a chisel, test fit, maybe fine tune the tenon stock, put the heavy machine away, etc. No big deal and I'm fortunate to have it but still a major step in construction.

   The domino feels more like a biscuit joiner....Should I use biscuits? Ok...mark a couple of lines, grab the joiner, zip zip and onto the next step..almost an afterthought. I get the same sort of feeling from the Domino, which is, I think, somewhat of a big deal (which is probably why so many people are talking about it).

   Rick

1. 
   RickL | Apr 02, 2007 03:02pm | #8

   "Router and no jig, router and homemade jig, router and fancy $700 FMT jig, horizontal mutirouter, slot mortiser, etc. The thing about all these techniques, though, is that there is significant activation energy and setup involved."

   If you ever used a slot mortiser you would know that it's just as fast as the Domino. That's why I could never figure out why the slot mortiser didn't get the attention it deserved. Apparently it's a total misconception of how fast it is. The Domino only has it over a traditional slot mortiser in it's size and portability, which is good for the guy in the field. But for the guy in the shop I think the slot mortiser is a better deal. It can use the premade tenons but the big advantage for bigger pieces you can use a bigger tenon instead of a bunch of small ones. Plus I can use it as a dowel drilling machine or as a horizontal borer. It's every bit as fast as the Domino without a doubt.

   I give Festool credit on their marketing. Mafell/Hoffman came up with a small portable double dowel drilling machine which  does pretty much the same thing as the Domino for joinery but most folks don't even know it existed.

1. 
   ring | Apr 02, 2007 10:35pm | #9

   Rick,  I totally agree with your assesment.  And BTW, I own one of those Mafell double-dowellers.  It's a fine tool, and useful for putting together cabinets.  But at $1000 it's priced at a range where most hobbyists don't WANT to know it exists.

   regards,

    David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

2. 
   Steve50 | Apr 03, 2007 02:24am | #12

   "If you ever used a slot mortiser you would know that it's just as fast as the Domino. That's why I could never figure out why the slot mortiser didn't get the attention it deserved. Apparently it's a total misconception of how fast it is. The Domino only has it over a traditional slot mortiser in it's size and portability, which is good for the guy in the field. But for the guy in the shop I think the slot mortiser is a better deal. It can use the premade tenons but the big advantage for bigger pieces you can use a bigger tenon instead of a bunch of small ones. Plus I can use it as a dowel drilling machine or as a horizontal borer. It's every bit as fast as the Domino without a doubt."

   Just curious - have you used a Domino and made this comparison first hand?  I have a slot mortiser and agree that it is faster than any hollow chisel mortiser, Leigh FMT, and certainly hand chopped especially considering with all these options, you will also have to cut the tenons.  In my experience, the slot mortiser is not faster than using a biscuit jointer (I am not comparing strength here, just the operation).  I expect the Domino speed will be equivalent to the biscuit jointer speed and maybe faster given the indexing capability for multiple mortises.  I agree with your assessment of using the slot mortiser as a dowel drilling machine or a horizontal borer (assuming your machine has those options of course). 

3. 
   user-200815 | Jun 23, 2007 11:17am | #24

   Really, really late to this thread but I must challenge your assertion that a slot mortiser is just as fast as the DOMINO.I'm a Loose Tenon, mortise and tenon joint fan - actual tenons for a mortise and tenon joint have become all but a thing of the past for me. And I've tried the various ways to cutting mortises
   - by hand with a good mortising chisel - and by good I mean ####Steve Wilson mortisin chisel (http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/Boxes/BoxesMTchisels.html) a chisel and bit mortiser - and not the drill press add on, or one of the lighter bench top models - but the General 75-075M (http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/GeneralMortiser/Mortiser.html), the Robland X31 combi's horizontal boring/mortiser which you call a slot mortise - driven by a German 3hp TEFC motor (http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X31/X31pg3.html) and even the TREND M&T JIG (http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/TrendMTjig/TrendMTjig1.html).So with actual experience with all of these methods of cutting mortises, and having now used the DOMINO for a couple of tables and now using it for an insane project which involves cutting several hundred mortises - for a garbage can surround (http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/GarbageSurround/GarbageSurroundTOC.html), I can state - from actual experience - that for furniture sized mortises - the DOMINO is the fastest, easiest and more than adequately accurate means of cuttining mortises, including into end grain I've found. There is virtually no layout required, no set up as it is commonly know, no test cuts and even a person with essentially no woodworking experience can cut quadruple mortises into mitered corners - of SEVEN FOOT LONG PARTS - in under three minute per part - AND have everything fit together as close to perfect as you could want (http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DougGate/DougGate.html)Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. But be forewarned, if you try it you're going to like it - and could lighten your checking account balance by about a grand. After a month or so of use on projects you thought it would be suitable for you'll have begun to think in terms of the DOMINO's capabilities, presets and approach to what would otherwise be dismissed as too time consuming - or too hard to do. Once you've used it you'll begin to appreciate what this thing can do. And until you've used it on a real project, you just can't understand what all the ballyhoo is about..charlie b
   who isn't prone toward being an Early Adopter. I did get an Atari 800 when it first came out, and waited a while after the first Mac came out - then became a Mac Phreak. Other than that, I make do with what I have - except for woodworking tools. If I need it, I get it.

2. 
   Hastings | Apr 01, 2007 04:39pm | #3

   Rick:

   You make an interesting point. Let's take it to its ultimate conclusion…

   Imagine a machine with a chute at one end into which you just put rough lumber. At the other end of the machine out comes a finished piece of furniture, exactly matching a drawing that you entered on your PC (or Mac).

   Obviously such a device doesn't exist, but, if it did, would it be woodworking? At what point does the tool displace the craftsmanship, fun and satisfaction? Does only handcut joinery make the grade? Is al it about "means" or "ends"? Where do you strike the balance?

   I do know this, however; I have a kitchen to build and if I don't get it done, my wife may remove an important element of my anatomy using surgical techniques that reached their apogee around the middle of the twelfth century.

   My Domino arrives next week!

   Cordially,

   Hastings

1. 
   JMartinsky | Apr 01, 2007 05:35pm | #4

   You posted:"Imagine a machine with a chute at one end into which you just put rough lumber. At the other end of the machine out comes a finished piece of furniture, exactly matching a drawing that you entered on your PC (or Mac)."That would a Mac here and I would get one in a heartbeat. Stick trees in one end and finished product comes out the other. I'm sold. Where do I sign?Best,John

1. 
   byhammerandhand | Apr 03, 2007 01:24am | #10

   Already exists. Doubt that you could buy it, though. China.Only wish I was kidding.You posted:"Imagine a machine with a chute at one end into which you just put rough lumber. At the other end of the machine out comes a finished piece of furniture, exactly matching a drawing that you entered on your PC (or Mac)."

1. 
   tom21769 | Apr 03, 2007 02:20am | #11

   Well, Sears does sell the "CompuCarve" :"Compact, computer-controlled, 3-dimensional woodworking machine with an easy-to-use interface ... allows a novice to make a complete project without a shop full of tools.The unique configuration allows it to perform many other woodworking functions, including ripping, cross cutting, mitering, contouring, jointing and routing"(Me, I'm holding out for the Kenmore "CompuSurgeon").

2. 
   gmoney | Apr 01, 2007 07:55pm | #5

   all of you guys are funny! i love that last line too.

   "My Domino arrives next week!"

   thanks, good laugh and good points...

3. 
   RGJ | Apr 02, 2007 04:02am | #6

   The Domino could be as common as the hammer in a few years, (O.K. only kidding).  I'm sure the guys that invented the first nail caught a lot of flack as well. I don't think it detracts from anyones skill level. I tend to embrace new technology and move on. It's not for everyone. It's just a faster way of doing something that's been around for some time now. Besides I like to play domino's.

   RGJ

4. 
   Buster2000 | Apr 02, 2007 08:48am | #7

   Rick,

   I see what your saying, but I wouldn't worry about it.  The Domino fills a need for fast and reliable MT, I think this will appeal to many pro's.  That said there is no real reason for most amateurs to purchase the tool.  There will always be people willing and wanting to do things the 'hard' way.

   In the end look at it this way, very few people really cut MT by hand.  Drill press, hollow chisle mortiser, table saw, router... In reality how are these any different than the domino?  There all just another evolutionary step.

   Buster

5. 
   steveky | Apr 03, 2007 02:35am | #13

   I too am fascinated with the Domino and can certainly understand how a professional could make good use out of it (time is money). However I have recently taken a different view of woodworking. I have spent years gathering the equipment that catches my eye and by no means am I going back to the very basics by just using a hand saw and a chisel, but I wonder how far we need to go when it comes to being a true craftsman? I’ve recently started branding my projects (in a place that isn’t easy to see) with my name and the date. I do this with the hope that after I’m long gone 100 years from now and my furniture has passed around a few yard sales, maybe somebody will look at my brand and wonder “who was that guy”? Of course after that much time most furniture needs mending, and is the repairman going to say “it’s just loose tenon joinery that will cost more to fix that it’s worth”, or “sure I’ll fix it because it is obvious a true craftsman took a lot of time to fit this wood together”. Maybe I’m a dreamer but I got into woodworking with the idea of creating heirloom quality furniture and in my book it can only be done with as little glue as possible. I know, some of you are going to think I’m full of it, but it’s all about satisfaction to me and I got over the “quickies” when I was a teenager.

6. 
   9619 | Apr 03, 2007 02:37am | #14

   Rick,

   I read your post a few times.  I am not sure what happened.  You are building a piano bench, and you had a set of plans that called for sliding dovetails, but  you thought a Domino would let you replace the sliding dovetails with easy mortise and tenons.       So you bought the Domino.  Did you actually use it, or are you still thinking about using it?     Please let me know.

   One thing you did was to become a popular man. You told the world that you are a
   FIRST ADOPTER.  You are now on the sales list for every tool manufacturer in the universe.   Congratulations.  You are about to be inundated with offers of new miracle machines.

   They say that cocaine is God's way of telling a Yuppie that he has too much money.  Well God has another way.   TOOLS.   I believe we all go through the wanting of each new thing to come out.   I found a way to solve that.  My shop is full. For something new to enter, something must be taken out. 

   So I joined "Tool Buyers Anonomous", and once a week I get in front of the group and I say, "Hello, my name is Mel, and I buy tools."  After a while things got better.  I have bought enough tools to know that:
   -every tool has a learning curve. 

   -buying a new tool never makes me feel as good as I thought it would.  Without the concomitant skill, the tool is worthless.   

   -every tool has limitations as well as special things it does well.

   Now, I think a lot before buying the next tool.  I try never to buy a tool without trying it out extensively if possible - as in visiting the shop of a friend.  I am the antithesis of a "first adopter".    The thing that has "saved" me (sort of in a religious way) is adopting the approach that I can learn do do anything in woodworking.   I quickly learned how to do M&T, then hand cut dovetails, etc etc etc.   I LOVE THIS NEW LIFE.  I am confident in my ability to teach myself (with books and tapes, maybe) any new skill.   What that means is that I don't need the Leigh jig, and the Wood Rat and the Domino.  I wanted to buy an electron microscope so I could really check the sharpness of my chisels, but I overcame that urge.

   They say "Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day.  Teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."   Rick, if I read you correctly, you need to be fed for a lifetime. My suggestion is that you try the same approach that worked for me  -  adopt the approach that you can teach yourself any skill, and that basic tools are the way to go.   AND THEN DO IT.  You can learn to cut sliding dovetails in a half a day.  Give it a try.  Then try 15 other things.  At the end of that, you will have what it takes to be a great woodworker - well deserved self confidence.

   If you and I and others can beat this need to have the fancy new tools, and focus on "output" rather than "tools procured", we can start our own church -- The Church of the Re-claimed Woodworker.   We can help others find happiness with basic tools and and self confidence.   

   By the way, this church has a nice way of making donations.  Each Saturday night, when it is very dark and no one else is around, you go out behind the house, and you take out a $100 bill and you burn it.    Then when you pay taxes, you can deduct those 52 burned $100 bills as donation.   Well, I haven't actually done that, but it does have a nice ring to it.  I checked it out with a guy at the IRS and he doesn't recommend it.

   Waddya say Rick,  wanna start a church?   

   I hope I have been of some use to you.  Within the humor of this message is a hard-learned lesson.

   Enjoy,

   Mel

    

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   Buster2000 | Apr 03, 2007 08:58am | #15

   Now, I think a lot before buying the next tool.

   Mel,

   The best advice I was ever given.  Was make sure you use the last tool before you buy a new one.  I'm always surprised by those that need to buy the tool now, then show up months later with the "I tried the tool today for the first time".

   I've taken it a step further:  The tool must be unpacked, cleaned and tuned then I must use the tool in an actual project.

   Was it Frenchy who was going to join Woodaholics (those that buy wood?)...  maybe we have some sort of double standard here...  (Ha Ha)

   If I cant burn the $100 this Saturday, is Sunday okay?

2. 
   astro | Apr 03, 2007 03:26pm | #16

   I think there is a lot of meat in your post and I appreciate the comments. I think that many of us have a back to basics need hidden somewhere deep inside that drives part of our woodworking obsession. Its that inner "18th century woodworker" who likes laying out dovetails, fiddling with old molding planes and generally visualizing what life would be like after dropping the day job and working at Colonial Williamsburg (hard work I think...).

   I think its also true that you have to know yourself well to get the most out of any endeavor. I am certainly a split personality in that way.  At a wood show, I'm just as likely to be drooling over that $10,000 laser engraving system (which I CLEARLY have no real use for and can't afford) as I am sniffing around the Lie-Neilsen booth pawing a finely crafted mitre plane (which I might not know how to use effectively). As much as I'd like to believe that its all about craftsmanship for me, I'll admit that the equipment side of the hobby plays a role in keeping me engaged.

   Your post suggests a hint of guilt in buying and stockpiling tools, particularly those that turn out to be duds.  I don't really feel that way. Perhaps I don't maximize my enjoyment of each tool after purchase but I get something out of owning each one even if I haven't completely mastered it. Its the potential that keeps the juices flowing. Of course, I'm just a hobby woodworker and use this activity as a diversion, so my perspective isn't the same as those who do this professionally or come at the hobby from a long history of woodworking at a high level.  For me its mostly about having fun and tools are fun!

   At any rate, I'm off to the shop to fiddle with my most treasured tool (which happens to be a Lie-Neilsen low angle block plane, strangely enough) and to ruminate on your advice. By the way, I did use the Domino on the bench and it works very nicely. I don't really see it as a "put wood into the machine and out comes a bench" type of tool but rather as just a more sophisticated version of the block plane...just another rather clever tool to accomplish one of many tasks in making the bench.

   Have fun and thanks.

   Rick

3. 
   Hastings | Apr 03, 2007 05:54pm | #17

   Mel:Here's my problem: I have a pretty serious case of attention deficit and a certain amount of hyperactivity. I find it hard to concentrate on one thing and so I tend to work sequentially on a number of activities, moving on when my attention wanders and circling back.The idea of working quietly away with a dovetail saw and chisel to build 30 drawers is a romantic ideal, but not something my temperament can take. For me, there is a "window" and the mechanical advantage of power tools lets me get more through that "window"You also said, "The thing that has "saved" me (sort of in a religious way) is adopting the approach that I can learn to do anything in woodworking."I think you are absolutely on the money here. I am new to this having just built and equipped a shop from a "greenfield" site. I had a choice; either get a shop and build a kitchen or buy a kitchen. How hard can it be to build a kitchen? I asked myself.Well the answer to that has surprised me on many levels. I have found that the principal pleasure has been learning and acquiring new skills; it's a very cerebral activity, there's lots to think about and many, many choices. Knots, by the way, has been an invaluable and incredible resource at every stage.I am presently building a "practice" set of drawers that embodies most of the elements I will need for the kitchen. Quite by accident, I adopted the rule of only getting the tool I absolutely need to complete the task at hand. Only yesterday, my wife sugested getting an 18 gauge nailer because there was sale and we had a coupon, but it failed the first rule of tool buying so I waited.Remember, there a well-capitalized companies whose growth depends upon us buying the next "must have" tool. We are subject to a veritable barage of advertising reminding us how essential it is. For me it's like golf (which I don't play). Some poor duffer, typically with money, is convinced that his game will improve by just getting the latest driver or putter or what-have-you. In fact, he would do much better to lose a little weight, build a little muscle, and practice his swing! But where's the fun in that? Much better (for the purveyors of such articles) to have one's customers spend good money searching for the holy grail of a silver bullet. It's a wonderful business model and it never gets old.I am in the early stages of this woodworking journey, but already I can see the futility of unchecked tool acquisition! So far I have put to use everything I have and I intend to keep it that way.Your thoughts in this post and others have been very helpful to me in getting the right mindset vis-a-vis tools. Thank you.Cordially,Hastings

4. 
   gmoney | Apr 04, 2007 03:05am | #18

   "concomitant" i like this word mel. i've used it periodically myself in conversation, although people rarely seem to know it's meaning. you are the first person to have sent it my way.

5. 
   steveky | Apr 04, 2007 09:52pm | #19

   “They say that cocaine is God's way of telling a Yuppie that he has too much money” - I love that line! With your permission I’m going to start using it.

1. 
   9619 | Apr 05, 2007 04:39am | #20

   Steve,

   You bowl me over.  You don't need my permission. Please use anything that I have said, and if you like any of my furniture designs, please take them too.  I am one of those who considers that a compliment.    I am sure that I stole that line from someone else.  Feel free.  And Have fun.

   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   steveky | Apr 05, 2007 05:38am | #21

   A young guy that I know had to go to a safety class or whatever they call it for a D.U.I., and he wore a T-shirt that said: “Rehab Is For Quitters”Needless to say they were not happy but I laughed for 5 minutes when I heard the story.

2. 
   tinkerer2 | Apr 06, 2007 05:02am | #22

   "With your permission, I'm going to start using it."

   Using what -- the quote or the cocaine!?

1. 
   steveky | Apr 06, 2007 06:52am | #23

   The quote, I've already got enough health problems without worrying about the insanity of drugs.