Replies

1. 
   Rich14 | Feb 16, 2005 03:10am | #1

   Malcolm,

   Is it possible to get close-up images of the front of the door? It looks to me as though the front is indeed solid and the front "moulding" is integral to and worked and mitered out of the frame. The glass is rebated into the back side and the moulding on the back is added on.

   Rich

   Don't ever learn anything new. Rather than give you satisfaction that you know more than you did, it will only confirm you know less than you thought by opening horizons to things of which you had never dreamt and which you now must explore.

2. 
   TimLoupe | Feb 16, 2005 03:34am | #2

   Malcolm, I think its a molding set into rabbits on the stiles and rails, like a panel molding.

   Tim

3. 
   Peter36 | Feb 16, 2005 03:39am | #3

   Hi Malcolm. Interesting job you have there. Obviously as you stated you can not take apart the door, but maybe you could scrape the paint on some of the mouldings and stile and rails. This way maybe you could see how the mouldings are attached by the grain patterns. My own front door is a 4 panel door and I wanted more light so I removed the panels from the top. The mouldings stand proud on the exterior and there was only a 1/4 inch space in-between. I put in the thickest glass I could find and some silicone. My door is original [I think] and my home was built in 1887. Possibly your door did not originally have glass in it and the glass is maybe only 3/8" wider than the opening?  This would leave a lot of room for a tongue that the mouldings would attach too.

4. 
   joinerswork | Feb 16, 2005 03:52am | #4

   malcolm,

   It seems likely, if the molding were applied, that at least some of it would have come loose from weathering, that it would be apparent.  It is possible that instead of two loose moldings sandwiching the panel, it is only one piece, 2 1/4" x 2 1/2", molded both sides, and ploughed out 1/2" deep  or so, for the edge of the panel.  That's how I'd do it, if I were going to apply the molds.  Of course the glass panels' molding would have to be two pieces, with one rebated back 1/4" or so, to accept the pane.

   It may be possible to faceplate turn the curved pieces rather than scratching them out.

   Long tenons will help to prevent the sagging.

   Regards,

   Ray

    

5. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 16, 2005 04:02am | #5

   malcolm, what you are looking at are what are called bolection mouldings. They are applied to the framework after it's made. Try the image below for an example. Also do a Google search using "bolection moulding" as the search phrase and select the Images option above the text box for further examples.

   A good source for construction details is that time honoured classic, Modern Practical Joinery by George Ellis, first published in 1902, and still available through GMC publications or Stobart Davies on our side of the pond. Alternatively, use the other old standard, The Technique of Furniture making by Ernest Joyce for construction details.

   View Image

   As to cost, I'd expect to be charging in the region of ~£2,800-- £3,500 unpainted. That would include a full M&T job and hand worked bolections around the tricky corners (although you might be able to excavate some of the curved bolection moulding using a router and trammel jig) plus the likely bespoke moulding cutters for running the simple bits of straight mouldings if an exact match is required.

   Tola, Nigerian Cedar (aka agba) wouldn't be a bad choice as it's durable in exterior locations, but watch out for brittleheart, and gum exudation has the potential to screw up any nice paintwork, but there are shellac or vynil based products that can help with resin seepage, e.g., knotting. Slainte.

   RJFurniture

   ---

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/16/2005 3:41 am ET by Sgian Dubh

1. 
   Patto | Feb 16, 2005 08:10am | #6

   Sgain,

   Great response.

   Is this one of those doors where the rails would be a through mortice with the sliding bits to make it behave like a dovetail? If so, would you expect the wide middle one to have a double tennon?

   I have been loking at an old one of these over the last few days and the prospect of having to rebuild it sooner rather than later is intriguing.

   David

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 16, 2005 11:59am | #7

   Patto, I think the through tenon you're describing is a through wedged tenon. This could be used, but the problem with this style in an exterior architectural door is that it does rather provide a place where water and weather can get in to start rot. Also the end of the tenon might protrude or be sunk under the edge of the stile or rail according to the season, and this would lead to cracking in the film of paint-- another potential source of water ingress and it rather spoils the smooth painted look.

   I tend to prefer a stopped or blind tenon in a high quality door to alleviate potential problems as described above, but yes you do lose the wedged reinforcement. Still if the joinery is well executed and a waterproof or water resistant glue is used there shouldn't be any real problem. Over here I'd go for Extramite which is a urea formaldehyde glue.

   As to the very wide middle rail I'd use a version of a forked tenon (which you're calling a double) and only glue the top fork and the top quarter or half of the lower fork allowing the lower part of the rail to expand and contract thus hopefully preventing splitting. Forking the tenon helps reinforce the stile mortice because there's a plug of wood between two mortices which will help prevent mortice cheeks spreading apart. True, it'll ride up and down a bit on the lower panels and take the middle vertical divider with it, but the wood's going to move whatever method of construction is used.

   Also a lot of these doors had locks and handles located in the centre of the middle rail so a chunk of wood between the tenon forks is removed anyway. Slainte. RJFurniture

1. 
   Patto | Feb 17, 2005 02:11am | #9

   Sgain, thanks for the reply.

   My question was more focussed on reproduction of original technique than how might be best to do it now. (although that position is hindsight)

   I spent a little time at our Army Apprentices School a few years ago (absolute tradgedy that they have changed the system to an adult trades school). One of their techniques for making doors was to use the joint shown below.

   The external evidence of this joint seems to be a square piece at either side of a through tennon (wheresas a wedged tennon would have the additional pieces in from the tennon ends and I would not expect them to be consistantly square in cross section), and on this evidence it seems to have been a very common way of making external and panelled internal doors in Sydney and Melbourne from at least the 1870's (my parent's house) until just prewar (The youngest stuff I have seen that I can date).

   The general configuration of lock positions seems to have the lock assembly at half way up the door with the stile at about 1/3 (I'm sure this is not the accurate proportion but don't have one handy to measure); so that the hole for the lock does not interfere with the stile. I have seen these doors badly refinished where there is evidence of the lock at the stile height, so perhaps the current configuration is a modern change.

   It seems to be a very secure assembly, acknowledging the risks and finish issues that you detail, so I had considered using it in repair and reproduction for my brother (Victorian terrace in Sydney) late this year. Your original reply solves the first problem about the moulding - but he can do that.

   
1. 
   malco7 | Feb 17, 2005 10:42am | #10

   Thanks everyone for a great response to my questions, you've given me lots to think about. Will reply in detail later but have to rush off to work now.

   Thanks,

   Malcolm

2. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 17, 2005 10:15pm | #11

   Patto, I see from your recent illustration exactly what style of M&T you were describing in the first place. To be honest I haven't seen that version ever executed in earnest, i.e., in a piece of furniture or in joinery. Also, to be honest again, I'd forgotten all about its existence, but in the dim and distant past I do remember seeing it either demonstrated or in a book somewhere.

   It would certainly be strong, and would have much the same characteristics as I described for the wedged through dovetail-- water ingress, cracked paint.

   Lock and handle set position on door stiles seems to be somewhat fluid, although I tend to see them set somewhat lower than halfway up most of the time-- probably about 1/3+ up from the bottom.  Older mortise type locks that penetrate deep are often centred on the middle rail in my experience almost certainly because they are morticed deeper than the stile is wide.

   Anyway, it sounds like malcolm has enough information to go on with, and he can always come back for more if needed. Slainte.RJFurniture

6. 
   hammer1 | Feb 16, 2005 03:26pm | #8

   One way to approach your door would be to temporarily replace it with an inexpensive slab. It looks as if the major damage is to the bottom rail and one side stile. You could then repair rather than completely rebuild. I think you will find the construction as Richard has shown. Generally the moldings are applied both inside and out, they are often rabetted over the frame. I've had a few customers that wanted to just toss an old door and replace with a modern one. I refused, opting to repair the venerable original. Circular work adds a degree of difficulty which equals higher costs. If I could reuse the existing moldings, I would. With a temporary replacement, you could take the time to strip the original and decide what had to be done.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

7. 
   SawdustSteve | Feb 17, 2005 10:37pm | #12

   Hi Malcolm... Here's one possible solution to your problem. I've been working on several doors that were built and installed in 1910-1912 time period for a local lighthouse. The rails and styles were joined with standard mortice and tennon joints. All 'inside' surfaces where the panels were to go have 1/2"deep x 1/2" wide dados cut into them. A 1/2" x 1" spline is inserted into these dados so it sticks out into the paneling area by 1/2". The panels were cut to fit WITHIN this new dimension and moldings were applied to the 'inside and outside to secure the panels. All nails (brads) went through the molding and into the spline, holding everything in place. If you need I could snail-mail you a drawing of the construction. Next month, when I have access to these doors I should take some photos for my files and for future reference.

   As someone else pointed out, it may be possible to replace ONLY the bottom rail if it is the only piece that is failing. Explain to your client that this maintains and preserves the historic nature of the door. SawdustSteve.

1. 
   malco7 | Feb 18, 2005 03:02am | #13

   Since reading all your replies the ideas have been going round and round my brain and my decisions have been changing by the hour. The suggestion of replacing the stiles and bottom rails on the existing door was popular for a while until I thought about the damage that may be caused to the remaining parts, esp the glass and curved moulds, when removing the old stiles and rails, particularly if the mould is integral to the fraing. I'm going back tomorrow to scrape some paint off the old door to check whether this is the case. There doesn't seem to be any come loose from weathering so maybe it is.

   To SawdustSteve - the splines you mention tie up with a vague idea I had of getting over the loose moulding fitting problem so I'm quite pleased with myself about that and thanks for mentioning it. I can sympathise with preserving the historic nature of the door but I'm afraid I'm not temperamentally suited to repairing woodwork, esp items that have had 100 or so years to distort slightly!

   To Sgian - I've ordered the book you recommended and it should arrive tomorrow. About the timber, I asked my supplier about Agba for external doors and the person I spoke to wasn't too keen on it, suggesting Utile or Sapele instead which are just as heavy as Iroko which is my usual timber for external joinery. I'd prefer to use Iroko as I'm used to it but I was trying to keep the weight down because of the large size and thickness. You mentioned a couple of possible defects with Agba - are these common or about as rare as stone deposits in iroko which are usually warned about but which I last encountered in 1993?

   Thanks again for all the help. Working on my own I don't have anyone to bounce ideas off so you guys are a great asset.

   Malcolm

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 18, 2005 03:31am | #14

   I've not worked agba for perhaps 20 years, malcolm, and then only a small amount, but I seem to recall it worked fine but it didn't have an interesting grain, which is fine if it's to be painted. I don't recall the stuff I worked having much of a problem with resin and didn't come across any brittleheart either, so I'm not sure how prevalent those problems are in general.

   Anyway, if you decide to go with a heavier wood because you're more familiar with the characteristics I wouldn't get much concerned about it. I'd just add an extra hinge, or maybe two, but I'd also make sure the door framework is solidly attached to the wall-- and that it's sound.

   Oh, and my till would keep ka-chinging for all the trouble taken. I'm nothing if I'm not a mercenary barsteward, ha, ha--ha, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture