Replies

1. 
   YesMaam27577 | May 23, 2007 10:18pm | #1

   Two comments.....

   Your idea of putting the joint into a chamfer (similar to how prefinished wood flooring is done?) is thoughtful, intuitive, and probably a good idea.

   Or, you could consider a marine spar varnish. Spar finishes are chemically designed to take lots of expansion and contraction. It might take some time to figure out all of the numbers, but I'll bet that resources are available.

   http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

   That link, along woth some dimensions, will tell you how much movement you're looking at. I'll bet that the makers of the various finishes have numbers available to see if their finish can take your design.

    

    

    

   Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now.  And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.

1. 
   Kevin | May 23, 2007 10:51pm | #2

   Your idea of putting the joint into a chamfer (similar to how prefinished wood flooring is done?) is thoughtful, intuitive, and probably a good idea.

   I agree with YesMaam. If you chamfer and score the joint then you could go ahead and use your usual finish because the chamfer will create an automatic break of sorts. Most importantly, from a design/aesthetic point of view, it will look like it's supposed to be that way and any finish failure within the joint should go unnoticed.

   Chamfering a seam is something that I've seen done with portable displays to very great effect. If you aren't sure that you can get the seam to line up perfectly everytime it's set up, the chamfer eliminates the issue and as long as it looks like it's supposed to be there, it actually helps from an aesthetic POV.

2. 
   JohnWW | May 23, 2007 11:32pm | #3

   You are doing it the hard way, there is no need to use dovetails.

   Just build the doors like a conventional door with rails and stiles solidly joined at the corners, by whatever method you use ordinarily and the intermediate strips installed in the grooves that would typically hold a single raised panel.  The individual strips will move less than a larger one piece panel so wood movement should be less of a problem than it would be with a single raised panel.

   John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine

3. 
   sapwood | May 24, 2007 12:26am | #4

   I don't understand why the joint between the bb end and a panel would be any different to a finish than the join between the panel and frame in a typ. frame and panel door. Either case has a joint subject to movement. You could mitigate the visual effects of movement by prefinishing.

4. 
   mudman | May 24, 2007 04:30am | #5

   Thanks every one,

    

   The truth is the idea of chanfering and scoring the joint came to me as I was composing the origional post. Funny how that works.

   John, If I understand you correctly you are sujesting that I make the doors as typical 5 piece doors......... Well the whole point of this is to not make a 5 piece door.

   Sapwood, I was thinking the same thing. Although these panels will be 5 inches wider than normal due to the lack of stiles.

   I am open to any other ideas as well.

   Thanks again,

   Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

1. 
   popawheelie | May 24, 2007 05:32am | #6

   Have you thought about not having an end piece? If you just glued up the doors and had vertical lines it would have a certain rustic look. Just a thought.

1. 
   mudman | May 24, 2007 05:00pm | #9

   Popa,

   The end pieces (bread boards) will be of a contrasting colour and are to be part of the design.

   Mike,

    I will attatch the bread boards in the middle so the movement will be spread out over both ends.

    

   John,

   Ok, So are you sujesting that I make the frame so the the rails have a groove all the way across and the stiles tongue into that groove. So the rails will extend the width of the door instead of the usuall long stile setup. The stiles will be made from the same material as the panel and hav a groove also. I am going for a modern/contempory design (think Starbucks in Beverly Hills). What I like about my bread board design is its simplicity. How would you purpose that I keep the panel and stiles looking like one element? I am afraid if I build it your way it will look like a standard 5 piece door with rails made of a different sepcies.

   When you say to tongue and groove the panel are you wanting a gap to show in every board so the gap at the stile blends in? If so I am not sure if that will look right in this modern kitchen. How would you sujest I do it without the gap pattern in the field? I like your idea because it would allow me to use double doors on the cabinets. My origional design prohibits that because the gap between the doors would be a problem.

   I haven't given yall enough info about the design. The face frames are to be painted with a solid conversion varnish. The species that we are considering for the doors are Teak, Bubinga, Claro Walnut, curly maple and Spanish ceader. For the rails, or bread boards it woud be curly maple, Teak, or who knows what.

   Here is one of the agreeable combinations, face frames painted a  soft olive color, light colored spanish cedar panels and teak rails. The olive should bring out the color in the teak.

   Or for more contrast, a slightly dark canvas paint, Claro Walnut panels and figured maple rails.

   There will be no stain.

   The cabinets them selves have radiused ends, I mean the say that the face frames curve with a 24" radius back to the wall and there is a radiused end on the 50" wide island. Inset into the radiused parts are large hand made 3/8" thick curved glass panels that are to be comissioned to a glass artist, and will be the most prominint feature.

   MikePardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | May 24, 2007 05:34pm | #10

   What happens if the "panel" in John's proposal were veneered ply, dramatically reducing the movement of the center.  Thus you would have solid rails, running across the full width top and bottom, and a center with solid inside edge, panel veneered with same wood as edge, and another edge on outside.  I'd think you could glue the two center edges directly to the panel so you would have no gap.  You would probably have to resaw wood yourself to get same grain and to avoid "loose" vs "tight" sides with sliced veneer.  You would also have meaningfully thick veneer for finishing and durability. 

1. 
   mudman | May 24, 2007 06:02pm | #11

   I am considering veneered PB or veneer core ply, but I dont like solid wood edge banding. I dont mean strips of wood glued on, I mean veneer put on the sides. Solid wood edging will work but only if I use a species where the grain and color are consistant enough to make the solid wood strips blend in  seamlessly. But the wood I want for the panels is all very inconsistant, like Claro Walnut for example. It would be nearly impossible to match a solid wood edge to the veneer.

   Another idea I have had about using wood eding on veneered sheet stock is to use those matched set roundover/flute looking bit sets that are suposed to make the edges perfect. Anyone used these?Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

2. 
   SteveSchoene | May 25, 2007 02:21am | #14

   I agree would be hard to match commercial veneer with solid wood, but if the veneer is specifically resawn for your use it would be from the same solid stock that the edge "stiles" come from.  For example, you could start with your solid panel layup, rip off the two edge stiles, and then resaw your center boards into veneer for inside and out of the panel.  With edges joined with the veneered panel, you would have the same surface as the solid panel would have been, though less two thin kerfs.  A fair chunk of work, but the end result would be more stable than the solids with breadboard ends, but would look identical. 

3. 
   mudman | May 25, 2007 07:55am | #15

   Steve,

   I hadn't thought of that. I think that one of the suppliers in my area makes veneer. I know they do custom marqutry (however you spell it). I'll call about it tomorrow.Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

2. 
   MikeHennessy | May 24, 2007 02:07pm | #7

   One thought. As you know, your panel will move with the seasons, the top and bottom rails will not. That being the case, you will want to fix only one end -- the end where movement would cause the most problem. In your case, that would be the hinge side. All your movement will show up at the opposite side. Depending on the width of these doors, that may be as much as 1/4". If that is acceptable, go for it. If not, you may want to rethink.

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

3. 
   JohnWW | May 24, 2007 03:06pm | #8

   Yes I am suggesting that you use the same construction as a five piece door. 

   The advantage is that the outer perimeter will be stable so that the hinge and strike sides of the door won't have fit problems as the doors gain or lose moisture.  The two stiles can look exactly like the rest of the vertical pieces that fill in the field of the door, you just attach them solidly at the corners to the rails.  The remaining vertical pieces would be T&G to each other and to the rails and float in the frame, everything would be flush and look just like a breadboarded panel.

   John W.

5. 
   JohnWW | May 24, 2007 10:45pm | #12

   You aren't taking into consideration the expansion and contraction that a solid wood door will go through as it gains and loses moisture.  An 18" wide door could be 3/8" wider in damp weather than dry. 

   You may be under the impression that a breadboard end will control this but it won't, in fact solidly gluing the full width of the panel to the breadboard will lead to the door self destructing.  A breadboard is attached so that the panel can expand and contract meaning that the breadboard ends will be wider or narrower than the panel for much of the year.

   The method I was recommending would give you a relatively seamless surface while keeping the outer dimensions of the frame relatively constant throughout the year.  The other suggestion, using plywood for the field, was given for the same reason.

   John White 

1. 
   mudman | May 25, 2007 02:18am | #13

   I understand the issue. My solution has been that I will use overlaid doors on face frames and no double doors. So there wont be anything for the doors to bind on or against. As I noted in a prevoius post I will fix the bread board to the panel in the middle so the diference is even on both sides. The same as you would do on a table.

   I am starting to think that veneered sheetstock will be the best idea. I just don't like using edge banding, especially the real wood banding. And if I use solid wood edging I do not want them to show, they will have to blend in or the over all design will be messed up. So I really want to use solid wood. Of course there is a signifigant price difference between top grade exotic lumber and veneer.

    Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.