I’m putting an addition on my historic home.
Home has original stained woodwork. The wood is not oak. It’s some type of softwood with tight graining and no knots. Pine maybe?
In searching for windows for the addition I found a company in Canada that makes windows out of douglas fir. My question is does fir look good stained? If so would it be a good idea to use the same wood for the trimwork?
Most of the wood windows made today are soft pine, which I know can be difficult to stain.
Forgive my ignorance and thanks for your help.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Replies
Fir can look good stained, but you generally have to seal it first with a clear conditioner or it could get kind of blotchy.
Which Canadian company are you dealing with?
Fir okay to use, but the grain is rather pronounced because of how it grows, it'll show light earlywood to dark latewood. Old growth looks real good, but in terms of machining this stuff can be a b@#$% because it splinters easily.
Sounds like it's not much of an upgrade from pine.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
What about Mahogany? This company offers mahagony Windows.
How does mahagony take stain. Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Mahogany? Marvelous!
I would advise you to get a piece of mahogany and test the stains and finishes you intend to use before you attempt to finish your windows; cheap insurance and better results than rolling the dice and testing your finishing methods on your new windows.
Good luck,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Mahogany is great. It stains well, is a joy to work with (nothing like cutting dovetails in mahogany), and is pretty rot resistant, which is a nice thing in a window. I'ts got excellent grain, and although not the hardest hardwood, it's pretty rugged.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Thanks guys. I know better than to ask about the cost.
Does anybody know of a good website that give examples of the graining of different wood species?Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Here ya go.
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/indextotal.htm
Click on the thumbnails for more pics and info.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 7/17/2005 9:55 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Clear, vertical grain fir is drop-dead gorgeous with a clear finish. It's pricey, though. I'm going to be working on some kitchen cabinets in a 1920's bungalow that were stick made from VG fir. I'd like to meet the guy who made them because they're still rock solid after over 80 years. They had been painted but the HO has stripped the old paint and is trying to decide if he wants to repaint or just use a finish.
I'm almost hoping he goes for a finish. I'm looking forward to a chance to get into them and see if I can match the work of someone who could have been my grandfathers contemporary.
Edited 7/15/2005 7:44 pm ET by Dave
There were a bunch of upscale houses built around here (Midland, MI) in the 60's (I'm guessing) that used quarter sawn Douglas fir as interior trim and it is nice. It can be dark though if used in large expanses where there aren't windows. The stuff I've seen is a deep redish brown, almost like redwood. I heard that high cost and the tendency to make the interiors dark, it fell out of fashion.
I found a company in Canada that makes windows out of douglas fir
I'd appreciate the website address of that company.
http://www.loewen.comMike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Thanks for the link. Those look like high quality windows that you installing in your house.
Clear Western Hemlock.
Our five year old house here in the mountains of Colorado has pine windows trimmed out with clear fir. All the 6"X3/4" base board is clear fir also. The difference between the fir trim and pine windows is indistinguishable.
We put a 'wash" coat of shellac on first to prevent blotching. a wash coat is basically shellac in a can diluted one part shellac to four parts alcohol. We then put on one coat of fruitwood stain cut one part stain to four parts mineral spirits. Wiped it off twenty minutes later.
Next day sand lightly with 180 grit 3M sponge pad
Next day sprayed one coat clear lacquer. We could not be happier. The fir has a reddish orange hue that is neither light nor dark. Everybody else around here is using alder and it looks like mud compared to our fir.
Chris
Mike:
We have a new house (timber frame; moved in late Dec '04) and specified Loewen windows - "linen" alum clad outside / fir inside. The grain seems tight and is all vertical grain, no wood defects noted. I'm trimming them now with vert. grain doug fir. The fir seems heavier and w/o the knots of white pine (clear pine is too pricy here in NH).
I'll be trying satin Min-Wax Polycrylic shortly to assess appearance. Two tips: doug fir chips when trying a sharp edge; we wanted a bead and I had to buy a special Freud bit to avoid chip-out along edges. 2nd: doug fir tend to split a bit along ends of boards. I pre-drill for manual nail holes. No problem when using a 15 guage angled nailer though.
We also assessed pine window manufacturers - Kolbe & Kolbe seemed to be a very good value but the local distributor gave up that line. Loewen will be replacing several sashes due to glass blemishes.
Thanks for the info on Loewen. How long did it take for the windows to be delivered? Did they arrive on time? How does the color of the Fir compare to pine? I found some photos online and it seems to be a somewhat orange or yellowish color compared to pine. Could just be the stain, I guess.I have pine trim in the rest of my house, but it's 120 years old. I'm trying to get close to the original medium brown stain color in the addition. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to go with pine, but its not very rot resistant. I will be getting wood on the outside as well to paint to match the existing windows.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Mike:
Late last summer it took about 2 months for the windows to be delivered to our local vendor (A&B Lumber, Pembroke, NH). A&B stored them for another month until our timber framer was ready. Since Loewen doesn't stock windows, your vendor won't have any stocked. (Be sure to specify enuff jamb; it's much easier to plane down than glue-up).
Regarding color, doug fir varies from a rich orange to a brown heartwood. Its a bit denser too. We went with Rogue Valley doug fir exterior doors and finished those with Sikkens. For the investment in new windows, insist that your local vendor show you completed applications & ask those homeowners how they finished them. Most builders love to have interior windows primed and painted off-white. Our vendor, A&B, offers other makes.
Your post also discussed staining. While I'm not a professional carpenter, I have tried using water-based analine dyes in trying to match color - notably different than using stain. It worked well with cherry trying to even out the heart and sap wood. Use trial pieces before you commit to applying either stain or dye to installed trim.
Looking back at your original post, perhaps the old trim was sugar pine. I'm sure others here would be more knowlegable, but sugar pine is much harder and tighter grained than (available) white pine. It tends to develop a reddish patina.
Fir is exquisite. But it is expensive. Someone said that it doesn't sound like much of an upgrade over pine. Methinks that I would beg to differ, cause I ain't never seen the tight graing pattern that fir exhibits, even in oldgrowth pine in antiques. Substantially harder to boot.
Most of the lumber yards in Canada stock clear fir, and while 30 years ago you used to be able to buy fir stair treads, I ain't seen em stocked for some time now. That being said, one of the more recent advents is VG fir ply, a suitable accomaniement to fir mouldings.
I can vouch for loewen windows. Reasonable , better or even best quality. Methinks they are Manitoba mfgrs, which to the geographically challenged, is just north (read colder and windier) than Minnesota. Want good windows? look for a CDN or Yankee Prairie manufacturer. Anyone who can provide a window in those climates AND stay in business as long as they have has just got to have a decent product.
Fir has been a defacto structural/finishing wood for at least a hunnerd years. Can't be all that bad eh?
Eric in Cowtown.
Fir is exquisite. But it is expensive
Sort of like the 'PERFECT' woman... BUT can be nasty to ya for no good reason! At least what you can think of!
Price of Fir is relative. I live in Portland, OR and the price is just above pine.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I redid some baseboards in my 1945 home in the bathroom and hall, I wanted to replicate the wide thick baseboards from the rest of the house. I used Doug Fir and the moulding head on my tablesaw. I splintered 1 ft at the end of 1 of 8 boards run thru. I did not stain it but rather painted it, but did test an oak stain on the part that splintered - do seal it if you use it.
If the window maker chooses the wood for straight tight grain, it could look pretty good stained.
Mike,
Your post does not state from what era your home was built, but I wanted to throw this out for what it's worth. Probably nothing.
I live in Evanston, Wy, a small town in the SW corner of the state that grew up in the late 19th and early 20th century. The majority of the houses in the old part of town are of the arts and crafts style.
The larger, more upscale houses of the era were trimmed in QSWO, while the smaller homes, built for the masses, were trimmed in plain sawn (yes, plain sawn) doug fir. My home is one of the latter. A 2000sf bungalow built abt 1917-18. The interior doors and trim all exhibit some of the wilder grain shown on the hobbithouse website. The panels in the doors and in an archway range from 20 to 24 inches wide with no trace of a glue up. Beautiful stuff, IMO.
I can't believe that this trim is unique to this area, but a great deal of it was produced locally by the now defunct Evanston Lumber Co. (The company name is stenciled on the backs of the larger trim pieces).
As to the finish on the fir, a stain may have been used, but I tend to believe they were simply finished with a garnet or orange shellac. The color varies with the grain from a chocolate brown to a beautiful amber/orange.
Sorry for the longwinded post, but it does show that fir was used for trim at least one place on the planet. Course it's been said we do things a bit different here. They don't call it Everstoned, Wildroaming for nuthin!
Onward through the fog.
Chuck Whitney
Chuck,
Our house was built in the 1890's. Original trimwork has been refinished. We did find some orange shellac on a bedroom door behind a loose paint chip. Likely all the woodwork was originally shellaced.
I went to the window dealer and took a look at the Loewen windows. They looked good, but they were all stained in a light-colored stain which looked rather orange. The woodwork I'm trying to match is pretty much straight brown with just a touch of red.
I guess best course would be to get some douglas fir and try to stain it to match the original woodwork. If it looks good we'll go with the fir.
Thanks everyone for your help. I greatly appreciate the advice.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Oh yea! Good ol' lead based paint. What were they thinking? I was fortunate that the previous owner had done the majority of stripping. Had to strip one bedroom and still have a little to do in the bathroom. Found if I was careful, the shellac acts as a pretty good barrier to strip down to and was able to save a good deal of the old finish/patina.
Good luck Mike.
ChuckOnward through the fog.
Chuck Whitney
Douglas Fir seems to have seen some use in the 50's and 60's as dimensional construction lumber, at least from what I have seen. When I lived in New Jersey, we added a second story on to our house, and I kept all of the old rafters which were Douglas fir. Built a really pretty blanket chest with it. What sticks out in my mind most, was how heavy the chest ended up being, takes two of us to lift it. Started out thinking it would be light, like pine.
The primary use for Doug fir is dimensional construction lumber.
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