Do most of you make dove tail joints using a dovetail saw and chisels? Or has the router become the preferred method?
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Replies
Cant speak for everyone..but I like a jap saw and a really nice old Winchester Arms Chisel, But I have not the occasion to make a WHOLE lot at one time, I have used a home made jig for the pins on half blinds and the bandsaw to ruff out the tails..I prefer the fisrt method.
Pete,
I enjoy using the dovetail saw chisels. It's a good way to develop confidence with hand tools and learn a few of the finer points of technique. But it's not an either or proposition, Sgain uses the router to clean up his hand tooled dovetails...
I have not used the dovetail jig in about 18 months....but I know it'll be easier when I do because I have cut them by hand...
Routered dovetails usually have one less gluing face (the inside radius) and are generally inferior.
I can cut 1-2 drawers in the time it takes for most folks to set up and test their jig...not including their wasted test stock...so it all depends on how many you have to do.
Edited 12/2/2003 10:43:00 PM ET by Bob
Pete,
I don't own a dovetail jig. They have always seemed a little fussy and really only suited for production work, to me at least.
I do occasionally use a router to remove the bulk of the waste on half blind dovetails, especially if the drawer front is made of highly figured wood, which can sometimes be quite brittle.
Rob Millard
Pete,
Long, long ago, when I was just a young little wood worker, I used a router and jig to cut dovetails. No more. When I discovered that I enjoyed using hand tools much more than using those forked-tail, electron-burning screamers, the jig and the router followed the rest of my power tools into other hands.
It's true that I can cut the dovetails for a drawer or two before others can get their expensive dovetail jig out of the box, but for a big run the jig and router will be faster. So while others may get their dovetails done quicker, I will have more fun--which is why I work wood in the first place.
Alan
pete
For donation work I use the jig. For personal work I cut them by hand.
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I just clicked in on this topic. It seems surprising to me to hear that the overall consensus is for handcut dovetails? With all the hype about the jig I would've thought everyone used them.
Gary
I have two thoughts on that. (1) All the votes are not counted and (2) Many that use jigs just won't post that they use them. My personal opinion is that many more use jigs than hand-cut them. Just a gut feeling. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge.jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I think your right Sarge. Why people are hesitant to "admit" their use of a jig ( sounds like were talking about dope for cryin out loud) is beyond me.
I use a Keller jig and have no problems saying so. I, for one, don't have the time to cut them by hand for every project. (yes, I can do them by hand). Perhaps when I retire I'll spend more time perfecting them.
Ya know, real woodworkers don't even mark them. They do it completely freehand.
Brian
Brian
On speed projects I donate, the Keller jig is what I use. I do cut them by hand for personal projects. But of course, I have the time to do so. Never get in a hurry on personal projects as their is nobody standing at the end of the assembly line insuring I make the deadline.
I think the probable answer is we are guys. It's a "macho thing". If we stump our toe in front of others, we will petend it doesn't hurt. We grit our teeth and wait till the "others" leave the scene before the screaming and obsenities start!
I remember when I was in High School in the early 60's. It was a big deal about how much beer we drank on Saturday night. The typical Monday morning answer was "a case and a half and had a little fun with Monica". The real truth was 4 and a half cans and got slapped by Monica for being "fresh" before we passed out. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Some of us grew out of the im-maturity and some of us didn't. As the world turns. :>)
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi All
I am a high school carpentry teacher aide (voc ed), so the emphasis is on power tools, although in my humble opinion, kids learn more doing dovetails with handtools because of the measuring and hand skills. My Intermediates need to learn as much as can be crammed into four one hour periods per week. Plus, this particular class includes one deaf kid, one hard of hearing and one with ADDH- they come to class with translators and aides, so explaining takes awhile.
Been trying to teach myself how to use the Porter Cable dovetail jig- Ya, I know, its maybe not the best but its what I got. No manual, of course. The Porter cable site wants a model number, even tho there's only one model that I know of. The thing is fussy to set up, but there are several students building the same project, and I want them ending with nicest posible job this jig is capable of. Part of makin a livin is gettin the best out of what you got.
Any ideas much appreciated.
One thought I should have added earlier was that the experience gained from chopping dovetails carries over significantly into other situations in furniture making that probably cannot be addressed with the dovetail jigs. One example was the need to change the plans and attach a top rail to the styles with dovetails on a small four sided display case. And there is just the experience working with chisels, paring off shavings for final fit adjustment, ...
lib
I am only aware of one jig PC makes also. I would get the # for customer service from the site and call them Monday. Tell them your problem and they should be able to supply a manual. Or if any local WW'ing shops carry it, they would let you browse the manual I'm sure.
Option two, post a thread "Need Help With PC Dove-tail Jig". Someone that has the PC should reply or send you a photo-stat if you state it's for the kids.
I know the Keller, am somewhat familar with the Leigh and Hart; but have only seen the PC on the shelf. Each functions different to some degree. The Leigh is a bear to learn, but a master-peice when you do I hear from those that have.
BTW, where are you. Wood-Shop & Metal-Shop has been cut from the budget in Ga. schools I understand. My dad died when I was 12 and that's how I got interested in WW initially. Sad to see that. I would have preferred them cutting algebra. ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Lib,
I have a PC dovetail jig and actually still have the instructional video. If you would like to borrow it send me an e-mail and I'll get it out to you.
[email protected]
As far as I'm aware, Porter-Cable currently makes two dovetail jigs: the 12" and the 24" Omnijig. These links may help for purposes of comparrison.
Jeff
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002241C/qid=1071406221//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl60/102-9700605-6079326?v=glance&s=hi&n=507846
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002241G/qid=1071406221//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl60/102-9700605-6079326?v=glance&s=hi&n=507846
Funny you should mention the pc jig. BTW I think they make (or used to) a 16" jig.
But I was loking at the new version of the 12" jig. I like the way they redesigned it. I went through 2 of them, one I gave away because the tighten knobs were only about a 10/32 stud spot welded to the base and kept stripping out. But now I see where they redesigned it and used a double nutted bolt that can be replaced plus it is a 1/4-20 " thread which is lot stronger. im so tempted to buy another one.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
Sarge
If you use a bandsaw are the DTs "hand cut" ?
As to DT jigs — agree that they are orientated to production work. But what constitutes a production run? I say four or more drawers, ie 16 or more joints.
What I don't like about the cheaper jigs is not the uniform spacing of the pins but the uniform pin length. It's especially noticable where the drawer fronts are thicker than the sides
Ian
ian
"If you use a Band-Saw, are the DT's hand cut?"
I have never used a BS and never thought about it. I would say depends on who's looking at it. If you free-hand them with a BS after gauging them, you might consider them hand cut. To a purist, this would probably not be considered hand cut. I'm not a purist, so I will call it a hand-machined and take a middle stance. Diplomacy! ha.. ha...
I mentioned I use both jig for donation and hand for personal. The donation pieces are more time deadline oriented and technique is not as important. I only use a jig for through DT's then. I still cut half-blinds by hand. On some donation pieces, I sometimes opt for other joints as the people using them are not so much interested in craft as usable function. Depends on the immediate need.
I am going to try that DT on a jig-saw just for kicks. Curious on that one.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I built a terrific jig for cutting dovetails on the bandsaw. Works great. I also regularly use the band saw to get rid of most of the waste when I cut them by hand.
Personally, I enjoy the cutting by hand, but I get no joy whatever from chopping out the waste.
I can't really imagine why anyone would want to cut half blind dovetails by hand. What a pain to chop out the waste from the inside corners! And you can't see the elegant spacing when the drawer is shut anyway. To me this is perfect use for a simple jig and a router.
That is my philistine approach to dovetails.
Ah gee, that's the most fun part, Mark! Think of it like this: When I am cutting the joints, I am a surgeon, when I am chiseling the joints, I am a sculptor. Just like carving only functional and precise rather than decorative. Still doesn't work for you? Oh well...
We ought to just combine all these dovetail threads and just say there's a bunch of different ways to do it, there's a bunch of different things that people like and dislike, and there's a bunch of different tools you can use, ranging from cheap to expensive.
Have a good day. Ed
Do you really enjoy chopping out the half blind pins? Now, I enjoy woodworking, but when I'm hacking away at wood with a chisel I tend to think of other things I'd rather be doing.
This is probably more to all verses any one person, and if this has already been mentioned, then forgive me. I started doing dovetails with a Keller jig that I still have. What bothered me about doing dovetails that way is that the top of the joint will never be less than 1/4'' as that is the smallest shank available.
Even though you can get a smaller dovetail bit, the shank will always be at least a 1/4''. What always attracted me to the finer pieces were the "needle" pins which are much more elegant in my opinion. Not knowing any other way to attain that look aside from cutting them by hand, I learned to do them by hand.
On a side note for any who would care to comment. I read in one of Krenovs' books where he pares the tails so that they are ever so slightly concave. The reason for this, he explains, is that by doing so a "tension" is created in the dovetails. I can understand this in theory, but have never tried to execute it. Does or has anyone out there cut dovetails using this methodology? And if so what are some of the difficulties or things to look out for along with perhaps some guidence in cutting them this way.
I agree with you on the narrow pins for through dovetails. But on half-blind dovetails, which you don't see when the drawer is closed, I don't care as much.
Your not alone Mark......
Mark
I kind of take Ed's philosophy on enjoying chopping them out. When I was a young kid in the 50's we didn't have all the modern gadgets to fool with like kids now. I would go out on summer days on school break and dig holes. Square holes, round holes and rectangular holes. Deep holes that had perfectly flush sides and bottoms. The mounds of displaced dirt around the top was uniform. At the end of the day, I would cover it up and wait patiently till dawn till I could sculpture another perfect cavity in the earth.
I get that same feeling cutting dove-tails. I am sculpturing a perfect cavity, just in wood and not the ground. It's the same effect for me. I am totally absorbed with the task. I have no thoughts of food, drink, time or worries. Just me drifting on a floating cloud seeking the perfect dove-tail. When I find it, the work is not done. I just cover it with finish and seek another just like in simpler times.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
I feel the same way while turnin goblets and bowls and stuff. I went from building heavy, sturdy, useful outdoor things to these delicate, little, fragile, useless things. I'm getting good, too- I only break half of them, now. Plus it keeps these old concentration skills and fine motor skills alive. And I don't have to buy presents for my wife, her 3 sisters, the neighbors kids or anyone else anymore.
Tooldoc sounds like a heluva guy. My sympathies to all those who knew and loved him.
Lib
Gary,
I believe you aptly described the situation when you used the word hype. There is in general too much hype surrounding dovetails. Dovetailing amounts to sawing and chiseling to a line, hardly a difficult task. My main problem with dovetail jigs, other than them being geared towards production work, is their inability to match the look of delicate dovetails typical of those found on drawers. I'm certainly not opposed to power tools, I don't stand around chopping mortises, with a chisel, when I have a router and mortise attachment for my drill press.
Rob Millard
Pete,
I use a Leigh jig, mainly because when I am doing draws for projects, there are usually 20 - 30 at a time. Last weekend I did through dovetails for the case work for two cabinets and the total setup time was less than 5 minutes and the total time to finish that portion of the less was less 30 minutes.
My point is that you can become very proficient in either or both mediums if you set yourself to mastering your equipment and techniques. I have not attempted handtooling dovetail joints and I respect those that who can made a sound joint with this technique. If the goal is accuracy, consistency, and replication, the jig cannot be beat. Customizing the placement of dovetails to avoid the "factory" look is easily accomplished with some jigs, such as the one I use. If the goal is to maintain traditional woodworking skills, then I urge you pursue this objective.
In 4-5 years I will retire and I look forward to the having time to learn and apply the traditional approach and use of hand tools.
Doug
"I have not attempted handtooling dovetail joints ..."
Child's play...gander at the other thread on the subject....the bookseller guru's have you intimidated so's you'll buy their book, first. No mystique to it at all....and you can get downright quick at it.
Doug I am retired and now have less time than ever
Woody,
Point well taken.
Doug
Pete,
I belong in the camp that avoids use of the router for making dovetails. Some of us in this camp get pretty snooty about the look of router cut dovetails.
To be honest, I've never even tried cutting them with a router and probably never will. Cutting them by hand is nowhere near as difficult as some would have a beginner believe. It's a skill that's very quickly learned and honed. It's really no big deal.
But I don't cut them by hand any more, either. I use a table saw and jigs I have set up for this purpose. Why cut wood by hand when we have power tools (that we guide be hand) that do the job much better. (do we use a hand saw to do the things that the band saw and table saw do so well? No.)
Dovetails cut on the table saw are simply hand cut using the table saw's accuracy and speed in place of the same operation done with the dovetail (back) saw. Once set up, it's far better than the router. It's as fast or faster for production work, accurate to the limit of your ability to set up repeat stop blocks, etc. That means, absolute, dead-on. It's every bit as flexible in layout and execution as using a hand saw, because it IS exactly the same as cutting by hand.
I think it's necessary to learn to do it well by hand, first. Because that makes you a better craftsman no matter what method you settle on.
They can also be cut on the bandsaw with several jigs, with all the charm and finesse as hand cut.
VL
I use my scrollsaw almost exclusively for through dovetail joints. I tried a cheap dovetail jig(Harbor Freight) and could never quite get it to work. When I can't use my scrollsaw, then I will(reluctantly) cut them by hand.
Rob, I am intrigued by how you make dovetails with the scroll saw. Could you give me some specifics on how you do it? I immediately went to the shop and tried to make one, a dismal failure! LOL How do you keep the lines straight? any other info would be appreciated. I have tried my hand at hand cut, but not satisfied with the results. every time I go shopping for a jig, I get totally frustrated, so have not bought on yet
Thanks
Fasteddie
[email protected]
This is how I do it.
1. Get your 4 pieces of wood square and true.
2. Mark your pins as you would if you were cutting them by hand. I usually mark all the shoulder lines on all boards at this time.
3. Put a spiral blade in your scrollsaw.
4. Get your dovetail guage and tilt the table.
5. Cut out one-half of each pin in the proper direction keeping the board parallel to the long axis of the scrollsaw. This will mean NOT turning the board. When the bottom of each pin is cut you will be pushing the board sideways. Cut 1/2 of the bottom of the pin.
6. Repeat #5 with the table tilted in the opposite direction. Now all the pins will be cut out.
7. Return the scrollsaw table to perpendicular with the blade. Replace the scrollsaw blade with a regular fine cut blade.
8. Trace out the tails from the pins on all boards.
9. Cut out the tails on the scrollsaw. I first cut the ends out. Then the center tails are cut by cutting one side of each tail and then the other side of the tail is cut and finally turn the board and cut the bottom of the tail.
I have been doing it this way for at least 5 years and can now do it in my sleep. I hardly ever have to trim up a joint if I am careful. On larger carcases, it is impossible(almost) to handle such large wood panels and then I break out the handtools to make the joint. On smaller pieces(drawers), I can make the joints quickly using this method. I have a Dewalt scrollsaw and use a foot activated switch. I have made blanket chest sized dovetail joints this way. If you play with this method a little bit, it will become self evident about how it is done.
If you want a straight forward, simple to use, what you see is what you get set up for through Dovetail joints, check out the Keller jig. Could not be more user friendly with beautiful results. Brian
Pete, functionally speaking, much can be said for a good box joint and modern adhesives.
Jon, I have not seen many of your posts lately and have missed your insightful comments. I have been visiting the "Breaktime" part of the website. It's beyond the wild west over there.
Rob, I've been lurking around looking for opportunities to cause trouble, but they've been few and far between here on Knots lately.
...I pretty much stay out of Breaktime. With all those unionized trade types over there, the day's just too short. :O)
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