I am designing a 6 drawer chest and want to know if it warrants the purchase of a dovetail jig for the drawers or if I should try to do the dovetails by hand (which I’ve never done before). My time is limited to weekend work so I want to know how long it is likely to take to make the dovetails by hand vs. with a jig- like the Porter Cable 4210. If we’re talking a matter of a few hours difference I’d prefer purchasing a good dovetail saw but if we’re talking days then I guess I’ll look into buying a jig. Any opinions on the new Porter Cable 4210 jig would also be helpful.
– Peter
Replies
Where are you located? You can borrow my PC Jig if your close, I'm on Long Island. I bought It quite a few years ago and don't use it much.
Edited 7/5/2005 11:21 am ET by CIRCLEKID
Thanks for your offer but I live in Annapolis. That does give me an idea though. I know a few folks here that are into woodworking so I'll ask around and see if I can borrow one of their jigs if they are using any.
- Peter
Peter:
You are going to get many responses to your post. Seems the "how" to make dovetails is very personal in this forum.
I personally have never cut hand dovetails. I do have the the Leigh jig and I love it. I do not find it difficult to set up and when I have multiple drawers to complete, I cherish the jig even more. I am absolutley in the camp of getting a jig and making dovetails. There will be a lot of banter here so get ready.
There really is not wrong or right method. Borrow someone's jig then try cutting them by hand. Make your own decision and dont let others opinions sway you too far till you try it for yourself.
Good luck
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Some of that would depend on how tall the drawers are, are you planning to dovetail the rear as well as the front? and finally, how likely are you to want to dovetail drawers in the future?
I would guess that the learning curve to make them by hand to the point where you are comfortable with the process will take hours in itself with a bunch of scrap wood and the final test would be done with the same type of wood you will be using for the drawers, if you are using something like cherry.
Learning to do it is a nice pasttime in itself, but can take awhile to master. I would suggest getting the jig if you need to get these done in a reasonable time. If you can afford it, I would go with the leigh or the akeda - you can make variable spaced dovetails, if you want that look or make evenly spaced when/if you want that look - your choice. The others like the PC will only make evenly spaced ones and usually do not make thru dovetails without pricey additional templates and then will only make evenly spaced ones. and you are then probably at 2/3 + the cost of the Leigh or Akeda
"If you can afford it, I would go with the leigh or the akeda - you can make variable spaced dovetails, if you want that look or make evenly spaced when/if you want that look - your choice. "
Rick,
The Leigh provides lots of options, but also has a fairly steep learning curve and set-up can take awhile.
In the same amount of time it took me to cut enough practice dovetails to feel comfortable tackling a set of drawers by hand, I was still milling test pieces and muttering under my breath when messing about with a dovetail jig.
By the time I finished my first set of drawers with hand-cut dovetails, I was beginning to feel quite comfortable, almost competent, and ready to tackle more.
By the time I finished cutting a set of drawers using a router and jig, I still felt like a novice, wasn't sure I was ready to go through the set-up routine again without stumbling and muttering, and was seriously questioning whether I was willing to make the investment of time and money a jig would require (part of what I learned was that I would only buy a dovetail jig if it was wide enough to dovetail carcases).
Oh, and when I'd finished dovetailing by hand, I grabbed a broom and dustpan and spent a minute or two cleaning up. After machine dovetailing, I removed my earplugs and spent at least half an hour cleaning up.
I believe anther contibutor asked a question that's very important to consider: knowing how much dovetailing the poster intend to do in the future is probably as relevant as how much time and money he is willing to invest in the dovetails at hand.
-Jazzdogg-
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
I was the one who mentioned knowing how much dovetailing he intended to do in the future .
The learning curve for the Leigh is why I also included the Akeda as an option. I used a friends once and the setup time was very minimal and came out great first try - maybe dumb good luck on my part, but I have seen reviews on the Akeda that say the same as far as the learning curve goes. My only gripe with the Akeda is the max width - 12" although I understand they may be comeing out with a larger model or two.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Jazz:
I have the Leigh D4 and will admit that it did take some time to get the jig set up and feel comforatable with it. Once the jig is set up, you can rock and roll and make dovetails all day. Unless I am missing something, sounds like it took an abundant amount of time to get it set up. It should not be as time consuming to cut dovetails with a D4 vs handcut. Maybe I do not understand handcut dovetails. (I've made them any way but onthe D4). I would think that the whole pupose of the jig is to make repeated dovetails quickly. No?Thank you,
The Great Marko
"I would think that the whole pupose of the jig is to make repeated dovetails quickly. No?"
Marko,
Now you've gone and done it! I'll be wandering around thinking about the differences, similarities, and subtleties of machine- versus hand-cut dovetails for the next several days! If I stub my toe on any epiphanies worth sharing, I'll try to remember to come back to this thread and share them with you - ha, ha.
I agree completely that once you get it set up and adjusted to the stock on hand, and get the layout worked out, you can cut dovetails until the cows come home with a router and jig, albeit in a noisy and dust-filled environment
And then, I put the dovetail jig away until the next project, at which point I find myself scratching my head and wondering: How'd that work, again? What did I end up doing last time?, Which do I have to remember to achieve this outcome?"
What I probably need to do is line up a several routed-dovetail projects in a row that include lots of variables, and lots of repetition, so I'll be forced to use it for a few days in succession. Hopefully, this will encourage the finer points sink in and settle as deeply ingrained memories of the entire process. I don't know about you, but, except for a few basics (like letting the router bit come to a complete stop to avoid damaging the jig), to me, the process of routing dovetails is less about muscle memory and more about mastering devices than hand-cutting dovetails.
I became a lot more comfortable hand-cutting dovetails when I took a hand-tool joinery class that provided lots of practice, followed by a string of projects, each of which involved cutting dovetail joints by hand; I was able to get the kinesthetic part of the process locked in the elbow, so to speak.
I should probably invest a little more thought to find the point at which it's advantageous for me to cut with a router and jig versus by hand. Balancing cost of time and effort, on one hand, against the improvement in working conditions, sense of accomplishment, and the satisfaction of knowing I'm fine-tuning my core woodworking skills, on the other hand - opposite ends of the continuum I'm using to visualize both processes.
As far as the cost of hours and effort, how many hours am I willing to invest in a project's joinery? How many dovetails can I cut by hand in the alotted time? Can't say I have specific numbers in mind for these variables yet.
As far as the sheer pleasure of cutting dovetails by hand, other demands on time and stamina definitely need to be taken into acount, as do looming deadlines and labor cost. No numbers to plug into these formulas yet, either. Hmmmm.
I guess it comes down to quality-of-life considerations and long-term skill development versus financial imperatives, deadlines, and stamina.
I seem to be rambling, so I'll sign off for now.
How do you decide when to use machines, and when to use hand tools?-Jazzdogg-
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
Jazz-
You are a pistol!
I think there is a time to cut by hand when time is not a factor and skill is in it development and you do not have dozens of joints to create. It seems to me that a jig is easier but I have not even thought about cutting dovetails by hand-- I am just too intimidated.
Chisels and handplanes used to be intimidating too-- but I got over it and think planes are the best hand tool in the shop.
For now I am sticking to the D4-- it is easy cut, easy to sneak up on a tight fit and I can make lots of em in one session.
Maybe one day I will get brave and try some hand cut ones.
Take care
Marko
PS I dont mind the rambling-- you are pretty entertaining.Thank you,
The Great Marko
Peter,
I remember Sgain has an article on drawer making on his site...and I believe he figures between 6-8 hours per drawer.
On the other hand I used a jig the first few times I made dovetails before switching to hand tools...it was a callange. Learning the process when doing it by hand can really help clarify the use of the jig and how to set up properly..IMHO
I too am building, sometime soon, a blanket chest. It will be 4 raised panels and a top all of cherry. The top will be a flat panel with shell carving in the middle. I will make all the dovetails by hand only because i dont know how many times i would ever use a jig. Since I havent cut dovetails in a couple years, I dont think I would use it that much. The key point is I have done them and they came out ok so I dont feel intimidated by them. Trying them on something like a 6 baord chest might be a bit exasperating so Id say get the jig and learn to use it. That alone will take you a weekend.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Peter,
I would recommend that you evaluate what you want to do in terms of making furniture, and make your decision in terms of your answers. If it is your desire to make fine furniture, by hand, then hand cut DT's are just a small part of the process. A bit of a learing curve, but with great satisfaction as the result. If it is your deisre to knock out parts quickly, then a jig is the answer.
Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
I've made about 15 or 20 hand-made dovetails, I own Rob Cosman's video, Frank Klausz' video, the Lie-Nielson dovetail saw (HIGHLY recommended), and a mini-dozuki just for dovetails. I'm still not 100% happy with the results, so my suggestion is a little different than other postings...most professionals I know buy their dovetail drawers pre-made (Rockler et al). If you're only making 1 or 2, why spend $1-500 on a jig?
Which video was the most helpful, Cosman's or Klausz'?
If you want to really be amazed, go to a woodworking show where Cosman is exhibiting (he does the Lie-Nielsen booth at the Toronto shows) and watch hinm for 40 minutes. Ask him questions, watch his technique and tips.
He's a nice guy, and fun to watch, and I improved my work four-fold in one hour.The older I get, the better I was....
"Cosman's or Klausz'?"
Peter,
I have both, and find that one's preference tells as much about the viewer as the maker of the video.
Cosman's approach will likely be favored by the highly detail oriented woodworker to whom order, precision, and certainty are paramount; his approach is akin to a watchmaker's.
Frank Klausz is at the other end of the continuum: a production-oriented approach that assumes any woodworker worth his salt will see mastery of hand-tool skills as imperative, and can get along perfectly well, thank you, without a bunch of tedious and time consuming measuring.
In truth, they both have a lot to offer (I ended up somewhere in between their two divergent approaches).
Please let us know what works for you!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Not trying to steal this thread, but has anyone used a bandsaw to cut dovetails? In theory, it seems as it would speed up the process of "hand cut dovetails"? I watched it done once on "WoodWorks" on TV. I wonder though if the time spent setting up a jig for the bandsaw would take longer than cutting the dovetails by hand. Any thoughts?
Dave,
I use a band saw to cut them-being true to form (unorthodox) as usual.That's the short answer.
I like Cosman's video slightly better (although they're both good); he has a few more practical tips included. You might also check out Woodcraft; ours has hand-made dovetail classes every now & then.
My thinking on this.... I was in your boat a while back, I started out thinking I'd cut the dovetails by hand so I began to practise...and practise, until I realized I don't want the finished product looking like the practise dovetails. So, I bought a jig with the thinking that I'd still practise and eventually make all dovetails by hand. What happened was I got so busy I didn't have time to practise.
But I still keep this in mind and someday I'll make them by hand, but right now my jig helps out.
Peter,
As someone has alraedy said-you will be told any number of answers to your question so here are my thoughts for what they are worth;
Fine cabinetry involves, amongst other things, ability to measure, mark and cut accurately and consistantly to the line. If you are confident in that then I suggest you do those d/t's by hand -why? because what are you going to do when you find that you have just one set to do or you find that you can't fit the jig to the job?
I do all mine "by hand" i.e without a jig using methods that suit me . I use band saw hand saw and chisels. I use router with straight bit to remove waste (freehand) and most importantly to get a nice flat accurate bottom to the sockets of lap dove tails. It's a piece of pish, as they say. I can do 4 average size drawers on a good day, clamping them to dry overnight.
If you go the jig route, you still have to learn how to use it and do some practice pieces, and even then the buggeration factor will get you because things happen too fast...
I don't care what they say- a well made "hand cut" d/t joint always looks better than a jig made one-infinetly variable or not.
I invite you to see some of mine on my web site-http://www.collectablefurniture.co.nz
P.S.I have previously posted a pic of my very first ones-done without any practising -if you have a method firmly in mind , combined with what I mentioned above you can't go wrong .
There certainly are a variety of opinions out there. After reading all of your advice, I have decided to ask my woodworking acquaintances in the area if I can borrow their jig for the 6-drawer dresser and then purchase a good dovetail saw or dozuki, the veritas guide, and start practicing by hand for my next project.
Thanks for all of your advice.
Peter:
I have another option not yet mentioned, which technique I got from FWW's Steve Landau (I think?). You might find it on this website. He has a simple technique to use your TS. Tage Frid also has a TS technique in his book that involves building a simple jig. I like these techniques. You can get accurate cuts straight away but still learn some of the techniques for hand cutting - accurate marking.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled