No, this isn’t the standard tails first vs. pins first! I’d like to know what your take is on the scribed line used to set the depth of the joint. Some say leave it to prove they are hand-cut while others say plane it off. A small wall cabinet I just completed was done with dovetails and I left the line in — question: what do you do?
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Replies
Leave it. And if you cut the dovetails with a router, add the baseline afterward. Then say: handmade, and charge accordingly. :-)
Best wishes,
Metod
That really puts the "craft" back in "crafty"
That really puts the "craft" back in "crafty"
Or maybe it puts food on the table for your kids.
Lee
On a contemporary piece where the dovetails are being exposed as an element of decoration... I have always thought the layout line looks ridiculous.
I realize the best in the business have left them on. I also think that allot of the charm and precision is lost on the buying public. It is almost a case of the only people (these days) that appreciate what goes into fine dovetails is another cabinet maker capable of producing them.
What does the (rich) buying public have to go on to judge wether or not they are looking at top level work other than clues like layout lines? I am talking quality of construction not impact of design. The buyer who has cultivated a more refined sense and knows to look further is a rose in the desert.
For a piece that is to sell on the market I might be inclined to leave them on.
Projects for myself I definitely, definitely plane them off. If you don't scribe too deeply, I say cut and layout so end of pin board is flush with side of tail board. Otherwise have side of tail board proud and plane down to end of pins to have enough material to eliminate lines without undermining fit; one planes the drawer sides to fit the opening anyway.
A person who produces hand cut dovetails can tell at a glance if they are looking at machine cut dovetails; the average customer cannot.
Who is your intended audience?
Good points that you made, I do use a knife edge on my marking gauge to do the lay out so it would involve a bit of planing and since I like to use exotics that can be a chore/hassle! I agree, on drawers it really doesn't matter if they're there or not since it's usually hidden. My intended clients would be the public and I'm just pushing my craftsmanship to include dovetails as visible design elements. Having just retired from teaching now I have the chance to expand and explore but ..... what's the economy doing to us now!! What I'm working on now is just an experimental practice piece, kind of a fancy cabinet to hold my drill press stuff. Now that I've finished it I'm not too crazy about the scribe lines. Maybe I will make them lighter although I do like using them to guide my chisels -- one problem at a time but it sure beats the heck out of teaching construction to a bunch of prison boys. Thanks for your input, John
retired08,Glad you are able to get to do some work that pleases you and may you in the future (economy) get to do more and more of it !To be clear I was not saying that the dovetails on the sides of the drawers could be what ever because they were hidden. I was saying they would need to be planed to fit the cabinet properly and so you might as well plane off the knifed lines while you are at it.See dvd or magazine article called Dovetail a Drawer with Frank Klausz. One of the best of the best !
The cutting gauge, not marking, that scribes the line leaves quite a deep score. This scored line is a useful place into which to drop the cutting edge of the chisel thus registering it precisely to chop out the waste-- it goes a long way to preventing cutting below the incised line. Ineveitably this method of working which speeds up the chopping part of the job has consequences, ie, it's rather difficult to remove all evidence of the knifed shoulder line without planing a lot of wood off.
I seldom remove the line even on show dovetails. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,As usual, you said it best. The line needs to be knifed all around, and DEEPLY, to be useful.If the drawer has been correctly made (sized), there should not be enough planing to fit to remove enough material to remove the line.Rich
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sometimes yes - sometimes no - sometimes both on the same piece (see above)
"question: what do you do?"
Plane it off and stamp my name on my work instead.
I use the cutting gauge line to register my chisels to clear out the waste, but I was taught to measure so that the long grain of the pin and tail boards ends up a tiny bit proud, thus allowing me to plane to size cleanly. This guards against chip out while getting everything perfectly flush, but it means I often plane off the cutting-gauge line.Norman
Hi, thanks for all the hints/advice on the dovetail question. I too use the scribed line to register my chisels and like someone else said, it needs to be deep to properly do that. I'm a little confused though on what you said regarding marking the pin on the long grain. Could you explain that? Appreciate it, John
Yeah, I was afraid that in my haste I was muddling my description. This part of my dovetail technique is essentially the same one recommended by Ian Kirby in his great little volume The Complete Dovetail, which you can see here:http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222437845&sr=8-1I'm relying on memory now, but his recommendation has to do with the depth of the shoulder on the pin board, the surface against which the long grain of the tails rests. When setting your cutting gauge you have three options (1) exactly the width of the tail board, (2) a little bit fatter so that the pins stand proud, or (3) about a sixty-fourth thinner, which will make the long-grain surface of the tail board a smidge proud once you assemble the joint. Kirby recommends this last option because it allows you to plane the joint perfectly flush without risking any end-grain tearout. Once you hear that characteristic sound of your handplane reaching end grain, you're done. In my experience, this can sometimes affect the appearance of the scribed line, particularly in drawer construction, where fine-tuning of the sides occasionally requires you to plane more aggressively to get just the right fit into the carcase. Sometimes the scribed line gets planed away altogether, and on occasion I'll actually get a drawer side where only part of the line is still there, giving it, I guess, a half-hand-made look (kind of like Samson's piece above). I usually leave it however it comes out because I feel a little creepy adding the line again after the drawer is assembled. But, hey, that's me.Norman
Edited 9/26/2008 10:29 am ET by nboucher
Some say leave it to prove they are hand-cut while others say plane it off.
OK so the secret is out! I can, but rarely hand cut dovetails. I use my Leigh D4R. I have been known to scribe a marking line 'after' I'm finished assembling the joints.
Just for 'looks'.
Look ashamed!8-)Rich
look ashamed?
Old Alfred E Newman Quote as I recall! :>)
"What, Me worry?"
I would rather not see it evidence of marking so I only use my cutting gauge to mark where I will cut in other words I don't mark right across except for the inner sides.
Philip,
You make a strong case against scribe lines.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
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