Hey Guys and forest girl
I have been doing cabinet work for 20 years and have never done dovetail drawer boxes and think it about time I start. My questions are:
1-Want to buy the portercable model (around $170.000)
2- what degree dovtail bit (should I have two or three on hand?)
3-these will be blind dovetails
4- how long will take to get the hang of it (as far as cutting lenghts to accomadate loss and gains on my final sizes.
5- I am very well versed in making doors, so I would amagine I should get it down pretty quick.
6- where can I get collars for bosch or PC routers
I will take any advice I can get
Thanks fellas, LOU
Replies
Lou,
I got the Porter Cable (PC) 4212 last year. The first dovetails I made fit together as if they had grown together. You should get the hang of it in about an hour. The jig kit comes with bits and collars for PC routers. No separate purchase needed. I bought a set of spare bit later just as a precaution. The 4212 will do sliding dovetails as well as blind and through dovetails. I haven't yet made blind ones with it. You may need an accessory baseplate for a Bosch router. I suppose that your PC router could need another baseplate also. The collars fit the baseplate for the plunge base. I bought an extra one from PC since I have 2 routers. Cost: about $8.00 + shipping. Needless to say, I like my dovetail jig.
Cadiddlehopper
First a question then a smart @#s remark.
Question
Is their a good source the talks about why you want to use different angels and when?
The remark.
Now we will pause this topic while the "you should/must/could cut this with a hand saw group replies. :)
Doug Meyer
Sorry could not resist.
I'll fill the pause......get a good saw and a set of fine chisels, cut any angle you want and be done with it!
I think Doug's jealous. :-)
Lou: Send your boards to Lataxe. He has cut in excess of 78,794 hand cut dovetails this month and wants break 80,000 to get into the Guiness Book!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ha the fact that I am just now trying to learn to use a hand plane is bad enough don't try to make me give up my router and dovetail jig too.
And I have a full kitchen of drawers to put together so I have a ton of these myself coming up. (about 20 drawers)
Doug Meyer
Doug,
From someone firmly in favor of learning to cut dovetail joints by hand, and do it well before using any machine method, if you could become enticed to learn the table saw method of cutting dovetail joints you would:
a. never use a router to do the job again,
b. be able to rival the finest hand cut tails and pins in placement and proportion, half blind or through dovetails,
c. reduce your 20 drawer task to a rather pleasant, simple repetitive process of well-made, interchangeable parts. For up to about 2-3 drawers, I would do the job by hand, as it's easier and quicker than setting up any jig or machine (and quite satisfying to do). But for more, the table saw method is great.
Rich
FWW Nov Dec 2001 cutting dovetails on table saw. Forest will grind the top of blade to angle for $11 I believe. I also use the table saw to rip the sides,front, back and bottoms to size. Also use a band saw to resaw wood. I leave the bow saw to Tage and the boys
texmark, That's the article. FWW had an earlier article that was not quite as good. The 2001 article shows an improved, more expansive technique. The method is excellent. Rich
I confess. I also "gasp" "choke" "snort" cut the thru dovetail pins on "MY" bandsaw. (As Norm would say) No elaborate sloping jigs etc I simply tilt the table! Something else I have always wondered about the rituals of the "Church of Handsawed Dovetails" I cut the tails first and mark the pins from them so why all the articles about how to lay out the tail cuts to plus minus a few thousants?
texmark,
In all the "methods" I've seen about cutting them, laying out and cutting the tails is never the" precision" part of the process, except that the cuts must be square to the face of the board. Once the tails are cut (and the placement and proportion can be entirely by eye, if desired), then the precision part of the job is that the pins must be accurately marked from the tails and accurately cut from those knife marks.
If I'm going to use a machine to make dovetail joints, I much prefer the table saw to the bandsaw. But I am firmly in favor of using all the accuracy, precision and easy repeatability that machines give us. For one or two drawers, I do it by hand. For a larger project, I wouldn't give hand cutting a microsecond of thought.
But I have never used a router jig for dovetails, and never intend to.
Rich
They're waiting on you to weigh in on your Wood Rat:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=fw-knots&msg=34331.1********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
this is interesting rich. i just read steve latta's article on tablesawn dovetails today (again). i also cut some tails today just to try it out and i'm considering getting a blade re-ground to give it a serious go. i've been experimenting with all sorts of hand cutting and combining a partial hand cut with some machining. it's actually quite amazing how many options there are available. i've cut lots with jigs and that works fairly well.
anyway, i agree that someone could be very happy with the tablesawn method and it's versatility.
Greetings Doug....
"Ha the fact that I am just now trying to learn to use a hand plane ."
That is excellent. Not only will it advance your woodworking capabilities but it should also stimulate deeper thought on the value of labour, skill and their interaction with raw materials.
Good luck with the drawers.Philip Marcou
Hmmm... Philip this sounds like enlightened self-interest- although I'm not sure that Doug is ready to buy one of your wares just yet...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Thank you for the second opinion which confirms my original diagnosis. I precribed a short course of humour therapy, and so far the patient has responded well. I believe he is of reasonably sound disposition and will respond to the full course without absconding-one of several side effects noted by other colleagues.Philip Marcou
Doug
Why would you want to spend your time on hand cut dovetails for kitchen drawers, unless, of course, you want to practice for the cabinetry with the visible dovetails you are going to make afterwards? A dovetail bit and jig, be it homemade or store bought, will do the most beautiful of jobs. If the dovetails are blind, then it really is a no brainer for me. Machine work all the way. JL
I think it depends on how many DTs you have to cut. If it's just a few drawers, it's easier to cut them by hand- by the time you set up the jig, do some test cuts, etc- you'd be done. Also, you- or at least I- am less likely to goof if I'm doing it manually.If you have a pile to do, then setting up the jig for a production run is probably more efficient.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Doug, Have a kitchen to do for a client, I just dont have the time. (time is $) To each his own. Do you draw pictures or take them with a camera?
Thanks, Lou
Thank you sir, I am ordering now
-Lou
Gosh!! Now I feel responsible! I'm certain that you will be pleased. I have done hand fitted dovetails, too. With the jig, I had all my pins and tails cut for 5 drawers in about the same time it would have taken to lay them out by hand. Maybe I'm slow. The main advantage is that I never made a saw cut on the wrong side of the mark. Have fun!Cadiddlehopper
Cadiddle,
There can be little doubt but that the DT jigs are more rapid than the handcut DTs, especially as the numbers in the batch climb. I am trying to imagine doing DTs by hand as fast as a Woodrat can do it; but, even avoiding a lot of the marking out by substituting eyeballing, I cannot see that you could saw that fast. Perhaps after a few thousand, the best apprentices can do handcut DTs rapid-like.
Nevertheless, I look at all them drawers with all them handcut DTs in 'em and feel quite proud. Satisfying, rather in the fashion of a good cycle race - nice when it stops!
Of course, there are DT jigs and DT jigs. Although DTs made with a cookie cutter jig may be serviceable, they don't look anywhere near as good as those with shapes and spacings chosen by the jig-user rather than by the limitations or dictats of the jig.
My DTs for the next couple of pieces will be handcut. This will be purely out of personal choice - a bit of play - and because, as an amateur, I can afford the time.
Lataxe
Lataxe,I am so near the end of my time that I never assume that I can afford the time. Besides that, my years at structural design cause me to be as conscious of strength of a joint as of its artistic appearance. I take that back; not as conscious but more conscious. Perhaps it is a mental defect or a psychological one, at least. My first dovetails as well as mortises & tenons were done by hand -- earlier in life. Also, I have a goal of making some serious furniture with drawers which may not get finished if I take the time to enjoy hand cutting all those dovetails.In lou's case, I sensed that he had pretty well made up his mind about what he wanted just as I had done when I bought my DT jig. I had a project ahead just as he does. Our schedules did not allow for debating the virtues of hand cutting versus machine cutting. Fortunately for him, I had all the information that he might not have found in any catalog without a lot of effort. I hope that I did the friendly thing. Furthermore, he and I don't have to worry about cutting on the wrong side of the mark, as I said before. I am very prone to that mistake.As for yourself: have loads of fun hand cutting many dovetails!Cadiddlehopper
Lou,
I just bought the 4212 to cut thru dovetails in a 20" tall toy chest. Three things I found beneficial: 1. Watching the videos on using the jig on Porter-Cable's web site. 2. Printing out and reviewing the suppliment manual available on that site, 3. NOT using the plunge base on my 890 series PC router.
I had never cut dovetails with any method and was able to "master" the 4212 and produce very tight, satisfying joints within two hours.
Watching the videos gave me faith in the jig.
The manual suppliment filled in some blanks with more detail and showed me how to use the jig to cut dovetails on the 20" boards.
I was having trouble getting the depth of cut right using the plunge router. The 4212 has pre-set depth stops on the end of the jig you use to set your router to proper depth of cut. However in my case, plunging the bits down to the jig's depth stop deflects the platform about 1/16". This problem was solved by switching to the regular base and dialing down to set the depth.
When I changed the base plate from the plunge to regular base I recentered the base plate by lowering the base so the collet centered the hole of the plate on the base, then tightened the plate to the base.
Hoopa
Great advice Terry! I appreciate it! One more thing that I am debating What should I use for drawer material:
Beach, multicore furniture grade plywood, hard or soft maple, poplar.
I kind of like the multicore becouse it has no voids in the core and it looks good when a finish is applied.
Any advice?
-Lou C
Lou,
I use baltic birch plywood for projects like shop drawers and garage cabinets. Use hard maple or soft maple, whichever one you have, but I think you will be sorry if you use ply for a furniture or cabinet project. No matter what you do to it it still looks like plywood. If you are worried about warping just glue sides with boards 3" or less. I have 4 pots & pans drawers in my kitchen that are 12" deep and they haven't warped in 20 years. I used the KV 150# glides and they are still smooth as silk. One misconception is that soft maple is soft. It is harder than cherry and only called soft by the lumber industry. I am never afraid to use soft maple for drawer sides. I use hard maple because I have so much of it, but I have used red maple (soft) on many projects. I wouldn't even think about using beech, it is a pretty active wood and is very difficult to keep stable when you dry it. That is why it is used to plywood veneer and kitchen utensils.
Edited 2/12/2007 8:53 am ET by terrylee86
Edited 2/12/2007 7:08 pm ET by terrylee86
Lou: If you must use plywood, don't dovetail it, make finger joints instead. There will be less breakout (looks better) and they will probably be stronger due to more long grain to long grain contact. Actually, if you use plywood, rabbeted joints work very well.Cadiddlehopper
is there any long grain in plywood per se?
I found some. It is only half of what is available in solid wood, of course. I recently examined some drawers made by a furniture manufacturer who made dovetails in plywood drawer joints. I wondered, "Why?" They looked awful. I suppose it is like someone said in another thread: everyone sees your finish but not the joinery.Cadiddlehopper
Ok men, I will use soft maple. I have plenty of it. For the record I was going to use cherry apple ply, its real nice stuff and there are no voids. Thank you everyone for your help.
My PC 4212 came friday and I went in the shop sunday morning to play with it, After reading the manual in my "office" for hours. I set it up and ran my first dove tail and much to my shagrin I nailed it the first time (got lucky) I made a few adjustments still just to get a feel for it. How do I prevent tearout (any tricks other than the obvious backer)
Thanks, Lou
"I will use soft maple." Good choice!"I nailed it the first time (got lucky)." I don't think so. You followed the instructions well. Congratulations!"How do I prevent tearout(?)" I did not have much problem with that. I did use a slower router speed. My PC bits seemed very sharp also. I chipped a corner of one by being careless later. It still cuts very well. I used poplar, but that shouldn't make much difference. Avoiding areas with wild grain is a good idea, of course. If you use a backup piece, it can be used over and over until you change patterns. Even though you machine some away, the part that does the backing is still there.Enjoy the new toy.Cadiddlehopper
Cadiddle, I wonder what the jigs doing right now. Cant wait to see her in the am. My wife thinks I have a problem. I brought home a sample of the dovetail (she's like "oh thats nice hun" I was like "nice" Its like one of the seven wonders of the world.) Then she said; (good, you can build the dresser I've been wanting!!!) They just don't get it!!! Although she does like the smell of wood on me when I get in from work! I love her
-LMC
I see you had trouble sleeping. Yeah! What would we do without them? I mean the wives AND the tools!Cadiddlehopper
I have dovetailed baltic birch plywood with good results, but you might as well figure a new bit into the cost of the project because that glue really dulls bits. I have used a bit after a baltic birch project and it burns the pins on hard maple.
Lou
The Porter Cable jig has an initial setup and learning time of less than 2 hours. I bought a fixed base PC router to use. The depth of the bit is critical in cutting a good dovetail and in my experience a plunge router can give small variances, though with care this can be avoided. If you want to cut a sliding dovetail, then a plunge router will work great. The bits that come with the router are 1/2". I can give high recommendation to this product.
Bill
Typical dovetail angles are 1:6 (about 9 degrees) and 1:8 (about 6 degrees). You might use the 9 degree for softer woods and the 6 degree for harder woods. What looks good for the particular project also plays into selecting the angle.
Good luck,
John
Are you aware that PC has a new jig coming out in March? It has the adjustable fingers like the Liegh (sp?) plus some niffty new features.
I have been using the most simple model made... can't recall the name at the moment, but it is a no brainer. Make the center line of the board, clamp it in the jig with the center lines mating, and rout it on the table. But this has very restricting limitations and I'm looking to step up. So if anyone has additional info they would like to share on using the adjustable finger jigs, I think we both would benefit.
Lou, looking at post #13 it seems to me that you are "doing kitchens" and if this is the first then it is possible that more will follow.
Undoubtedly dovetailed drawers are the best , even for kitchens, but especially since kitchen drawers take a lot of punishment.
I advise you to get a good jig and router (I don't know which are good).The best combination probably won't be the cheapest, but you do require speed, accuracy , repeatability and reliability. You also need one that can do through dovetails for the back ends.
Phil, Why do i need to do thru dovetails on the back. I know I can get this down! My ego has been humbled by asking questions about something I know nothing about. I am progressing!
It's a good question- I don't know of any scientific reason . I think it is just that that is the way they have always been done-I've never seen drawers with blind doves all round, only boxes. I suppose it(through d/t's) simplifies the fitting of the bottom, which slides in grooves on the sides..Through dovetails are quicker.
Certainly for kitchen woodwork if it suited me to do blind ones all round I would do it. The food would not know the difference-even the "management" in most cases would not give a fig....Philip Marcou
Edited 2/7/2007 6:05 pm by philip
I have used a Leigh jig for many years. I recently bought the 24" to allow me to use greater than 1/2 " stock.
I do not wish to get into the hand vs machine debate but I I prefer the consistency and time savings that I can get using the gig.
I am presently making a kitchen with maple drawers with through cut dovetails on all 4 corners of the box and drawer front attached with screws. I am also using undermount full extension slides and a removable 1/2 " plywood drawer bottom. It is overkill but some of the pot drawers are 30" X 24 " x 10" deep and I want them to last!
The leigh is pricy compared to several of the jigs but I like the design freedom to adjust the jig to any overall depth. With 8 drawers finnished down and 20 to go, I sure appreciate the speed that using the jig allows.
Gear
hi, I work in a small custom shop and we use the porter cable omni jig. its the big heavy one. I've made hundreds of drawers on it and have learned a few things that have really helped our shop be both competitive and have good quality. The first thing is make sure you use a 1/2" shank bit. Our jig came with a 1/4" shank bit but it doesn't cut anywhere near as fast or cleanly as a 1/2" shank does. the next thing we did was to buy an extra router just for dovetailing and we leave it set up for nothing but dovetailing. this cuts down on all the set up time. I prefer the porter cable 690 with a "D" handle as it is easier to turn on and off, but thats just personal preferance. It is very important to have your drawer box thickness to be exactly the same everytime as this will prevent you from having to adjust your jig and router everytime. In our shop we use 1/2" sides and to make sure that it is exact I stack 4 boards together and make sure that it measures 2". By doing this you magnify any error in your thickness.
Thanks Matt, You were very helpfull!!! Also I wished I would have read this earlier. the extra bit I ordered I did not specify a 1/2'' shank.What angle dovtail do use use and is the front and back both 1/2 blind Thanx again, Lou
glad to help, I think they are 14 degree bits but anything close is fine. good luck
Lou:
I make almost all of my jigs and if you are interested in one that combines halfblind dovetails on drawer fronts and through on the backs, you can get plans to build your own. You can find it at http://www.thedovetailjig.com .
Jigmaker
that site looks like a jig for sale. is that not right?
Hi gmony:
I am not sure I understand your question. I don't know if they sell the finished product. All I know is that you can get plans there for building your own jig.
Lou,
To answer all your original questions, I will give you my best advice. I own the 4212 and the 24" Omnijig. I like the Omnijig for wide stock, but for drawers 6" and narrower it allows the wood the slide too often for my taste. The 4212 has about as small a learning curve as you will find. The angle of bits for the 4212 are not 14 degrees,but 7. The bit that comes with the jig has a 1/2" shank but it leaves a little to be desired. I bought Whiteside bits that are made for that jig (RD7531 17/32") they cut like butter compared to the PC bit included. I use 5/8" drawer sides on all my projects and it works just fine with the 4212 doing blind dovetails. Take time to set up the jig according to the manual (not hard) and it will cut dovetails all day. Make sure you play with your bit depths with hardwood not pine because the joints wont fit the same because pine will compress in test assembly and seem ok. Label your pieces front,back and right and left and put an X where the bottom will be, when you are making a bunch of drawers it easy to get confused. I love my Bosch 1617, but if you have a PC router already use that because the bushing adapter assembly is about $40 for PC guide bushings for the Bosch routers. If you already have the adapter ring, use what you like. I too like those D handle routers for dovetailing. You can get bits and bushings at Hartvilletool.com or any source that you like. The jig comes with the 3/4" guide bushing you need, I just bought a extra to leave in my PC router for dovetails. One last piece of advice, dado your bottom grooves about 1/16" wider than your bottom stock ( I use 1/2" on big drawers and 1/4" baltic birch on smaller drawers) it makes assembly much easier. Then when the glue is dry(use an acid brush to paint the pins, less cleanup) turn the drawer upside down and push the plywood bottom down and squirt hotmelt glue all around the groove to keep it from rattling and you wont see any gaps in the drawer inside. Hope this helps
Terry
Edited 2/9/2007 4:19 pm ET by terrylee86
very good advice. i have the 4212 as well and i noticed that the bits didn't cut very well on my last use, esp. the dovetail bit.
When I used the 4212 the first time and thought this is junk. Then I decided to try a new bit and bought Grizzly bit made for that jig and it was a little better. I decided to try the best bits so I bought a Whiteside and I couldn't believe the difference. They are made in North Carolina and cost a little more, but not as much as I thought. In the time from when I bought that dovetail bit and now I have bought about half dozen of their bits and they are all better than anything I have (Frued, CMT, PC, Bosch, Amana and Grizzly purple).
Edited 2/10/2007 11:53 am ET by terrylee86
thanks terry. i saw the whiteside dovetail bit at a woodcraft store yesterday for about $22. i believe your experience and when i need bits in the future they'll be whiteside.
I have the old small porter cable. My advise to you based on unpleasant experience is to find someone who makes them and sells them. You can probably buy them cheaper than you can make them and save your profit margin to boot. Good luck!
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