I’m looking for help and suggestions on dovetail jigs. I will use it quite extensively on boxes, and also a few blanket chests…maybe 5 or 6 over a couple of years. I’m considering the Gifkin for boxes and Keller for the chests. Am I far off base on my thinking? I read a lot about Leigh, but I don’t think I could ever justify the cost. It seems more for a pro shop. Please help.
Thanks,
lostcreek
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Replies
The Super jigs are quite reasonably priced and offer probably all the features you'll need. The biggest drawback is the fixed pin size.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
5 or 6 over a couple of years? Why bother with a jig?
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Why waste your time with an answer like this? I asked a fair enough question. I haven't the skills to produce hand cut joinery, so I'm looking for the most cost effective method. I think all top level jigs can produce a quality dovetail, so I wondered which were best for my needs.
Lost,
Consider a woodrat, which will make all kinds and sizes of DTs, including some that approach the fine pointy-ness of houndstooth; but also great big ones that you might want to put in a seachest or other big box with thick walls. Also, the woodrat allows you to space the DTs anyway you want.
The rat will also make many other joints, including the best-fitting M&Ts, finger joints of all sizes and a load of others, all to a very precise standard. It can also be used as an upside down router table.
Lataxe
Well, I hope I wasn't wasting my time. Or yours, for that matter. ;-)
I was just trying to point out and promote the (perhaps too obvious) alternative.
Seriously, you can spend a few hours practicing with a saw and you *will* have the skills, or spend a few hundred bucks on jigs and you *won't* have the skills. I own a DT jig, and I use it if I have more than 8 or 10 boxes to put together in a short time frame. Otherwise, it's just more fun to leave the router in the drawer. Hey, it's all about the journey, not the destination!
IMHO, the reason so many woodworkers never develop solid hand tool skills (that are VERY useful BTW, even in a fully equipped shop) is that it's just too easy to grab a jig and plug a tool in. Kinda like calling someone a "musician" just 'cause he could afford a player piano. ;-)
But why not give it a shot? It'll only cost you a few pieces of scrap wood and a few pleasant hours in the shop, and what's not to like about that? And since you indicate you have a time frame of a few years, it seems you've got the time. Heck, why not invest the money you'd be spending on the jigs on a class or two instead? Or even cheaper, check out Frank Klauz' video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-o4jryTkUc (An excellent tutorial and well worth the money.)
As an added bonus, you can end up with dovetails that are not constrained by the size limitations most lower-cost jigs impose.
Just a suggestion. I'm no hand tool phreak who believes motor-driven tools are the devil's work. But I do try to promote the use of them, and the development of the skills necessary to use them, whenever appropriate.
As for jigs, other than the hi-end ones you've already ruled out, I have an Akeda, and it's OK, but like other jigs in this price range, you'll be forced to design your work around the set increments the jig allows. Whatever jig you choose, it does take a bit of tweaking to get the bit depth dead on, so plan on making a few test sets and, once you get it right, cut a socket in a scrap of hardwood to keep as a guage for the next time.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
You propose: "Seriously, you can spend a few hours practicing with a saw and you *will* have the skills, or spend a few hundred bucks on jigs and you *won't* have the skills".
Now then, you are confusing two skill-sets here. By definition, if a chap doesn't practice hand-making DTs he will not have the associated skills (to make hand-made DTS). However, if he uses a jig to make those DTs he will have the skills to use the jig well. For example, it takes a lot of learning (and the acquired skills) to do all the things a woodrat can do.
It works vice-versa - many handtool-only fellahs have no machining skills. One could make a very good argument that this will slow them down or even prevent them from achieving certain types of joinery and quality (eg precise joints, crisp edges or whatever).
But isn't it remarkable that handtool fans have no hestitation in thrusting their views about the needfulness of hand tool skills down the necks of other woodworkers; but often take umbrage should one suggest they try a machine tool. "I am a purist" they cry. Or "I am a traditionalist" (whatever that means). In either case, what is The Great Value in being pure, "traditional" or whatever? I would say, "None - it's just a lifestyle choice with no intrinsic superiority".
In short, there are a set of skills associated with various handtools and the joints or other things they make; similarly for machine tools. Some handtoolers like to pretend that there are no skills assoiated with machining wood. This just ain't so. What might be so is that getting machine tool skills allows you to make a lot of stuff much faster, with more precision and less of a learning curve. A bit like driving a car compared to going about in a carriage and four.
Not to deny that there are some aspects of woodworking only available via handtools (and some only via machine tools).
Lataxe, a hybridistra.
Now then, you are confusing two skill-sets here. Yep..
Like how you got the Ladywife to even date you in the first place and now keepin' her all these years? :>)
Mike,
Thanks for the reply and insight. I am a fairly new to woodworking, and my plan is to practice making boxes with all sorts of joinery and to improve my skills. The 5 0r 6 chests are for my kids, hence the quantity. I also plan to learn to hand cut dovetails, as well as other hand skills, but I can't do it all at once. I live in a remote area of Utah and the closest training is the Woodcraft store in Salt Lake, about 1 1/2 hours away. I took a router class there and was pretty much disappointed with what I learned. But...it was only a 2 hour course. The trade school close by just cancelled it's woodworking classes at night due to budget constraints. So..that's the story. Now...is there a practical way to learn to hand cut dovetails? Maybe a recommended book or video? You mention one by Frank Klaus...any others?
Thanks for your help and sorry if I took your first reply wrong.
lostcreek
I like to hand cut my dovetails. In fact, I have never used a router dt jig and wouldn't know the first thing about it.
One thing, Mike didn't mention is that you likely will need to buy a tool or two to make decent dt's. A good dt saw makes them somewhat easier ($30-50 minimum) and perhaps some marking tools (another $30). If you have none, you might need to buy a chisel or two (another $20). All these tools might be procured more cheaply from a flea market or garage sale, but my point is that you may have to oulay at least a little cash to handcut.
While how to dt articles are included in all the WW mags almost monthly, and likely are available in the archives here, I'd consider doing a quick how to for beginners with pics here, if those don't get you there.
View Image
You do a fine job with your dovetails, indeed.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thanks, Chris.
I didn't mean to show off, but more intended to give the OP some indication that I had some personal experience. And to show it can readily be done, especially if time is not of the essence.
I didn't mean to show off..
Yes you did!
And nothing to be ashamed of by my way of thinking! Nice work.
AND a wide 'stick' on top of it. Great work!
Hey, dovetails aside, I do like that hold down on the right. How's that held to the bench?
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
T-track let into the front edge of the bench (a tip from Mr. Pocaro through PWW).
View Image
Check out this old post for details and more pics:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=38519.6
Edited 1/7/2009 9:52 am ET by Samson
Now that's cool. Thanks.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
It should be stated that every single tool needed to cut a dovetail will be used for an enormous number of other tasks. Where as any jig is only good for a single task. Buy these tools and mortises and tenons can be free. Buy a dovetail jig and you need to buy a tenoning jig as well as a set-up for the morstise.
A way to secure the work will most likely be the most difficult thing to acquire. No representation without taxation
Clamps will work and are not that expensive, but you are right.
Matt,
Some jigs are single purpose. However, a woodrat (or for that matter a router table/fence) is not. Nor is that handy jig: a tablesaw.
Moreover, no handtool by itself can make something, except perhaps a carving chisel (but it seems one needs 5 or more to accomplish anything sophisticated). In fact, a carving chisel of the more arcane type has very few uses - even less than one of those DT jigs you disparage.
Also. a range of different handtools is required to cut most joints, as Samson points out in another post. There is no universal handtool that comes anywhere near the verstility of the woodrat & router - a true universal wood-milling tool.
This artificial differentiation between the virtues of handtools and the vices of machinetools/jigs is......artificial, not to mention untrue.
Lataxe, not a fan of woodworking dogmatica.
You make a great argument there. You really do. I liked the way you took my statement to an absolute extreme to point out it's failures. And then insinuated that I was being dogmatic.
My only point was to state that buying two chisels, a saw, a bevel and marking guage should not be looked at as an investment in making dovetails. You will use each of these for much, much more. You know that. It's simply not fair to state that an similar up-front investment is needed to start cutting them by hand vs. buying a dovetail jig.
Matt, not a fan of woodworking dogmaticaNo representation without taxation
Matt,
Apologies if I seemed to be getting at you; that isn't my intention - I 'm making the argument that overlaying value judgements on tool choice is often a matter of personal preference, not someting to do with the instrinsic worth of tools. It's easy to turn one's preferences into an argument from some sort of moral, financial or other "value stance". We get confused between "I prefer it myself" and "it is unversally good/better".
For example, you propose that: "...buying two chisels, a saw, a bevel and marking guage should not be looked at as an investment in making dovetails. You will use each of these for much, much more. You know that. It's simply not fair to state that an similar up-front investment is needed to start cutting them by hand vs. buying a dovetail jig".
But the "financial value comparison" you make here shows your bias. I can find a dovetail jig as cheap as £40, along with a router for another £40. I can find a chisel, saw, bevel and marking guage for a total of £240 (what I paid for mine, as it happens).
As to the "versatility value comparison"; well, I can buy a set of 12 router bits for £20 and cut a huge number of profiles and joints with them in that £40 router. Were I to buy all the moulding planes, mortise chisels and so forth to accomplish the same thing by hand, it would cost me a lot more money and take a lot more time.
****
Well, now you will think I'm really pulling at your chain. Maybe so but only to make the point (again) that it's a mistake to think our personal preferences (for tools and techniques in this case) somehow have a financial, time, moral or other "value" force. They don't - they're just personal preferences.
And let us not forgt, the OP began with this question: "I'm looking for help and suggestions on dovetail jigs". Not on chisels, saws, gauges or any other hand tool but on DT jigs. Nevertheless he then gets the standard galoot sermon on handtools. Cuh!
Lataxe, not even mildly religious about a chisel (or a saw).
I think you're reading things into my post that aren't there. I did not say that doing it by hand was cheaper because the tools are cheaper. I did not say that purchasing those tools will take less out of your pocket than opting for the machine. (though if you compare the bare-bones lowest grade to the lowest grade that probably is true.) What I said was that comparing the tools needed to do it by hand vs. buying a dovetail jig is not comparable because one set will be used for every single joint you create going forward (and more) and one will be used on projects involving dovetails.
The person that recommends a Leigh dovetail jig must also recommend the Leigh FMT. I don't doubt that a beginner taking the hand cut route will spend MORE than they would with a dovetail jig, but the hand tool option is still cheaper due to the vast carry-over of skill and tooling. (Unless, of course, you insist on comparing the cheapest available machines to the absolute most expensive hand tools available again.)
My impression is that people that make the dogmatic machine argument often refute the hand-cut argument with statements illustrating the monetary layout of the tools listed, needing the tools to sharpen, needing a way to clamp the work, needing the skills to cut the joint and sharpen, etc. When people say this in response to the hand tool argument they are talking about $$$ and it MUST be pointed out that every single one of these things are not unique to dovetails. Again, the cost of tools, practice, sharpening can be spread out over every single joint under the sun (it's unforunate that I will need to include the following with you: except those crazy ones the Leigh attachments do) along with most aspects of this hobby.
I started this hobby 4 years ago. I joined this forum 3 (?) years ago. (what year is it again? I'm still 19, right?) I purchased a Leigh jig when I wanted to make a project with dovetails because I thought that was how they were done. That's what I thought...complete and total ignorance. I never considered doing them by hand. I currently opt for the "by hand" method because it's best for me. I don't recommend the hand method to anybody here looking for a jig. And I did not. I will, however, argue with a person that states the monetary layout for the hand method is similar to that of the machine. It simply IS NOT. Did you really make it all the way through this post?
Let the record show that I have never ever seen a person recommend molding planes over a router on this forum at ANY point in ANY thread. I've never done it and won't.
Matt, not even mildly religious about a chisel (or a saw).
And no apologies are ever needed. I'm sure that we're both here for the same reasons.
No representation without taxation
Edited 1/7/2009 3:31 pm ET by MattInPA
And it's hard to tell, reading the responses. Geeeeeez.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, given the choice of living in the remote Utah mountains or a near Woodcraft store, I think I'd choose the former as well! ;-)
To address other posters' replies, I'm not claiming that using power tools does not require skills. I am suggesting that I think a good woodworker should have skills in both power and hand tool use. I think the marketing hype that abounds makes too many folks think that all it takes to be a true craftsman is enough money to buy a shop full of tools and it's too hard to learn to do it by hand. It just ain't so. A shop full of the best tools in the world won't eliminate the learning curve. I like to encourage new woodworkers to force themselves to at least try hand methods before they convince themselves that they can't do it without a power tool. Not only does it increase the options available, it helps with understanding the "how and why" a bit better.
I don't think I've ever made a piece of furniture using power tools exclusively. But I have made a few using only hand tools. Just because I like to sometimes.
There are lots of DT videos available, but the one I always recommend is the Frank Klaus one I posted my other post. The reason I like this one so much, especially for beginners, is that Frank has a way of demystifying the process, showing that it's really no big deal to rapidly turn out nice DTs with only a saw, a chisel and a pencil. No fancy measuring or marking guages or other special tools. He says he allows 45 minutes per drawer. Now, it takes me (and most others) a bit longer, but not a whole lot. (I wouldn't even consider futzing with the router and jig for any less than 6 or 8 drawers. Some enjoy working with DT jigs -- I just happen to hate 'em. Still, mine is a necessary evil where sheer quantity and lack of time dictate its use.)
Also, FWW had an article two or so issues ago where one of the authors took a reader under his wing and showed him where he was going wrong with his DT attempts. Some thought this was a poor editorial choice, but I thought it was great because it emphasized the common problems that crop up and how to fix 'em. I recommend that article to you as well.
As for jigs, I'll reiterate my vote for the Akeda. I like it because it's solid, relatively simple to set up and use (though "simple" is relative -- there's still a learning curve and a lot of opportunity for problems to crop up with any DT jig), and it does, within limits, allow for more adjustablility than a fixed comb jig. Just don't let the jig sidetrack you from learning how to do it without killing any electrons. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
PS: If the local school cancelled the WW-ing classes, you might wanna look up the now-ex-teacher. May be able to work something out for some private lessons.
Mike,I agree with your sentiments, but not your approach.I too have cut all my DTs by hand... but I am considering a jig as well.Why? I have a bunch of drawers to make for a group of shop cabinets. These will be used to store, tools, bits etc- I'm not sure how many I'll be making, but probably 15-20. I could cut them all by hand- but I'd rather reserve that for the furniture upstairs. Have Fibonacci spaced tails with paper thin pins is nice on display furniture, but it seems overkill for my work-a-day shop cabinets. On the other hand I would like the drawers to be strong and made of solid wood, so a jig is a pretty reasonable solution.More than a few posters to this and other WWing sites who are pros have said they started out cutting all the DTs for their blanket chests by hand... but many of their customers did not appreciate (or care to pay for) the handwork, so they went to jigs. In days of yore, the DTs in the back of a drawer might often be done by the apprentice, and look the part. So short cuts have their purposes...
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Ah Glaucon -- you think my methods are a bit, er, blunt? LOL! Didn't mean it that way, but I guess I can come off so from time to time. My apologies to the OP.
Methinks we exactly agree on when/why to use a DT jig. But the OP says he has only 6 or 8 boxes over a couple of years and these are to be heirlooms for his own kids. What better excuse/opportunity to learn to do them by hand? The kids will never notice if they are not perfect, but their appreciation of Dad's hand work will only increase with time, imperfections aside. That's why your kids are always the best clients. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,I agree... I would also add that the more I use hand tools for a task, the more I appreciate the control and finesse they provide. It is easy for me to take 6 hours of work and reduce it to firewood in 10 or 15 seconds with a poorly set up router. Accomplishing the same level of destruction with hand tools takes me at least two or three days.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"Accomplishing the same level of destruction with hand tools takes me at least two or three days."
Take heart. After you practice as long as I have, it'll get much quicker! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Sir..
Mike Hennessy is a gentleman and then some. I would doubt he posted what you responded.
Just me.
"Mike Hennessy is a gentleman and then some."
LOL! Pulled the ol' wool over some else's eyes, I guess! ;-)
That said, my original post was, perhaps, a bit er, terse? Was pressed for time at the moment so I was brief (for a change) and I think it came across wrong. But, that's all been cleared up, so no harm done (I hope).
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Santa brought me a PC 4212 for Christmas. I've only had the chance to use it once, but that went perfect with min effort. Made a 71/4h 9w 14l box with through DT's and a 3/16 piece of luan for the bottom. I was really amazed at the ease of set up.
Thanks,
Greg
Look at the Woodrat or the newer Router Boss. youtube is full of videos.
Was going to suggest the AKEDA DT jig but, though is does half blinds and through dovetails as well as box/finger joints - that's all it
and the other dovetail jig do.
On the other hand, a router table and a good fence system makes for a
very versatile set up - raised panels, edge detailing, cope and stick
AND - if it's a JoinTech fence and precision positioning device
- half blind and through dovetails, box/finger joints - including
variable spacing.
Have a look at the JoinTech Cabinet Maker System at
http://www.jointech.com
At the risk of the raining down of derision from the galoots, I would also suggest that you look at the Router Boss. It isn't a dovetail jig per se but it does make excellent dovetails very easily. Unlike every single router-based dovetail jig out there, the Router Boss does not limit you to a specific bit angle or type. (The WoodRat doesn't have that limitation either but its not a dovetail jig.)
If you're going to get something, you might as well get something that will give you flexibility. You'll be able to use the Router Boss for much more than just dovetails.
Here's a picture of the very first dovetail joint I cut with the Router Boss. It was straightforward and easy to do. I should have checked to see that the end of the tail board was square before I cut the joint.
View Image
The WoodRat is a good machine, too. I had one for about 7 years and used it frequently. The Router Boss is better in a lot of ways, though and I would recommend it over the Rat. Besides, there's no one in the US currently providing customer service for the WoodRat.
Been watching Adel's site for real experiences with the Boss. Looking forward to yours. Joe
I think he's still putting his together but he'll probably have more work to show soon. I don't get enough shop time these days.
Dave,This is the first time I've heard of the Router Boss. I did a quick search of the web and couldn't find a site for them. Do you know if they have a site?Edit: Never mind, I found it: http://www.thecraftsmangallery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvcChris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com) - Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 1/8/2009 1:19 pm by flairwoodworks
Google is your friend:
http://www.thecraftsmangallery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=W/CTGY/M
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Buttin' in here.. I love jigs and fixtures.
I am Old so it may be my last big purchase (I think I said that last year?) . I have decided my so called junk Ridgid TS works for me and then some. With a good blade it cuts everything I have tried to do. So I will not get a new TS. (I still sort of want one for some reason?)
Besides, it maybe is something I can sell later to try and pay my VERY UNREASONABLE Cook County property Taxes! @&&.. I would love to be able to print my real thoughts but I would be banned forever and the mayor would send a SWAT team to wipe me out. OK by me but still waiting for the spring to finish my China Girls canopy beds!
I have looked and maybe I will get the Router Boss but not sure what (As in ALL I need to make it do everything.. OK Maybe just common stuff.). Yes... get every attachment is assumed. What is really needed to do most things.
I tend to work on larger objects and these old hands are very tired and 'chopping' is a bit painful!
Sir, I understand your gripes with those property taxes and so on. No need to get yourself in trouble with the mayor, et al.
As far as the Router Boss is concerned, what to get with it and what not to depend a lot on what you want to do with the machine and what things you'd like to make. Due to the setup you can make all sorts of work holders quite easily and if you enjoy doing that, go for it. The machine comes with everything you need to make it functional. I also have the Mortise Rail which is very handy. It'll be great for things like rails and stiles because with minimal change in the setup of the machine you can cut both the mortises and the tenons.
There's a multi-angle work holder coming that will be nice for things like angled tenons or even raised panels with vertical bits.
For dovetails you don't need to buy a thing unless you want the lovely HSS router bits to make those slender dovetails.
I would suggest the X-axis Digital Scale. It's very handy although not a requirement. If you even think you'd want it later, I would suggest you order it installed. I know what it takes to install the thing from zero--I wrote the instructions--and I think I'd let them do it.
Hope that helps, my friend. If you have any questions, drop me an e-mail. I'd be happy to help. And cook County isn't really that for from Olmsted County. You could just come and take a look for yourself. ;)
Dave
Just my thoughts: I have been using the Porter Cable 4212 / 4215 for a few years and have liked it a lot. I recently bought the Akeda D16 but that's quite pricey. You might consider just doing some nice box joints, which can also be very attractive and you can make your own jig. There's nothing wrong with box joints, and you can advance to dovetails if you decide you love making boxes and chests.
Edited 1/9/2009 9:09 pm ET by Lantyr
I'll chime in with a recommendation to check out the Woodrat, or the RouterBoss. They are both excellent joint making fixtures. While they seem a bit expensive at first glance, their flexibility makes them worth the cost.
I will also recommend a really slick home made jig, that has shown up in Fine Woodworking publications several times. The article is, "Custom-Built Dovetail Jig", by William Page. It may be available online. If not, it was reprinted in the collection "Shop Improvements", edited by Matthew Teague, and is available in the Taunton store for $20 plus shipping. The Shop Improvements book is well worth owning if you are looking for ideas on benches, and jigs or fixtures you can build to improve your shop. It also contains a couple of articles on jigs to cut dovetails on the table saw that might work for you.
Page's jig is elegantly simple in it's construction, and can be made to do anything you need for through dovetails.
Lost, it does seem this thread has skidded off the tracks somewhat. Another source for feedback on different jigs, used with some caution, is Amazon reviews. I find it always pays to read the complete reviews, as some people will ding a product for an irrelevant reason (damaged in shipping, for instance) or a positive review might not have much supporting info. Also, by reading through the reviews, you can pick up complaints or compliments that run like a thread through the comments, an indicator that it's a real things, not just one person's odd experience.
Whatever, it's worth a try to get some feedback on specific jigs. You haven't mentioned a price range, but the new Porter Cable seems well worth a look, in the moderate price range.
Here's one comparison article I found when Googling dovetail jigs review It starts with a chart describing user priorities and which jigs are best to consider.
It seams that when every anyone asks about Dovetail jigs we get into the do it buy hand discussion. Kind of like the table saw question turning into the saw stop discussion, and the What is a good bench to buy turning into the get them to build a bench discussion, and any of the discussions that turn into pro or anti Fess Tool discussion.
Personally I have the big Leigh (sp?) jig, with the dust collector on the front and would not trade if for anything. (Well truth make me admit that my dad has it, as I gave it to him a few years ago, of course we work in the same shop, so depending on how you look at it you could say it is mine, Strange how that works out, but he does tend to get nice wood working tools as gifts from me)
Doug M
Somehow, the inevitable path of dovetail jigs threads escaped my notice. I was surprised how quick it happened here, for sure. The guy's got enough to do, I'm sure -- what with kids to raise 'n all -- and surely deserves the right to choose his method.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well in order to try and stay on topic, I would suggest that the OP look at any of the adjustable jigs. I would not go back to a fixed jig myself.
As for the direction of the thread, I almost made a post very early on about "and now we will wait for the hand cut dovetail crowd to post about not using a jig at all" But decided I did not want to start the thread down another path. And I figured the hand cut dovetail crowed would not see it as funny.
Doug M.
Is bandwidth so expensive? Is the OP's level of awareness that other possibilities exist so clear that mentioning - or even recommending - such alternatives is an affront?
Sean - who is sick and tired of the thread purity police
Is band width that limited? No. Obviously not. And I am not and have never been against letting threads go what ever direction they go in. So please try not to make it sound like I am. But the thread was about what dovetail jig to buy and sure enough we soon had the "don't buy any of them, real men hand cut" posts. The OP did not ask if he should hand cut vs use a jig he asked what jig he should get. So yes any of the other post are off topic. Is that bad? I don't know. What I do know is that some people are very passionate about the topic and that they can not let a thread on dovetail Jigs get by with out posting about doing it buy hand. And most of the time someone will post how real wood workers develop the skill set to hand cut while wannabe with fancy tools use jigs. This kind of thing is most likely of no use to the OP, and it would be like someone getting onto a thread on how to hand cut dovetails and saying anyone that hand cuts when you can do them with a jig is a fool.
This same thing happens (as I pointed out) with several topics, and anyone that has been on this board for a while knows that. If you take personal insult at the remark, I am sorry, but in truth this would be like someone asking about buying a motorboat and getting posts about not getting a motorboat, but buying a sail boat instead.
I also note that you are one of the hand cut crowd that if I recall your post has never used a jig. So I am not sure why you would post on this topic to begin with.
Doug M.
Doug, I kind of doubt you'd be this much of a ..., if you were standing in front of me. But maybe you would.
You make several false assertions and many other dubious ones.
for example: "This kind of thing is most likely of no use to the OP ..." Please compare this statement to this post from the OP: http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=44870.9 As I read it, he seems pretty intersted. And lets not forget the lurkers who have similar questions - posts are different from e-mails after all - i.e., we are posting for others to read bedsides the OP.
The fact that you do not understand why I would post on this topic is kind of at the root of your problem. You should ponder it more, it might come to you.
And please point to any post in this thread where anyone came even close to saying, or even implying, something like this: "someone will post how real wood workers develop the skill set to hand cut while wannabe with fancy tools use jigs." Perhaps you're a bit insecure and read this into innocent suggestions?
The only thing more predictable than the 'hand cut' crowd suggesting that the OP consider cutting them by hand (which is a perfectly acceptable/on topic suggestion) is having Mom and Dad come in and lecture those that are on topic about staying on topic, thus turning the thread completely off topic. I mean, ForestGirl making a suggestion 40 posts in without reading any of the other responses. Doug Meyer contradicting himself and exaggerating to an untruthful extreme 6 times in 12 sentences. What's more predictable than that? Talk about Cuh!
Matt, in no need of another mom and dad but sometimes wanting suggestions that have not necessarily been considered while alone in my basement with my only exposre to the craft coming from my own experiences and on these boardsNo representation without taxation
Ok you called the numbers, lets see them please.
And as for the idea that suggesting they be cut buy had is on topic, Well you are just plan wrong it is not the topic. How is don't by a jig cut them buy hand on topic for a thread with the topic of what dovetail jigs and a first line of
I'm looking for help and suggestions on dovetail jigs ?
It is not. Like it not that if the truth.
Pick on me all you want. Fact is in an amazing number of these post over the years you get the topic moving from what is a good jig, to don't use any jig. And as for what is of interest to you as a reader of the thread. Nothing personal but that is also not an issue. You did not start the topic. If you want to read about something other then what the topic is I suggest you start a thread about that. Of go off on a tangent. I don't really care. But don't be surprised when someone like me points out that once again a thread has moved off topic in a predictable manor. And while you may be able to pick on Forest Girl (her being a nice person and all) I am NOT the type to sit back and let these things go. I did nothing wrong. I did not suggest that the post "off topic" be pulled or stopped. I pointed out that it was not unusually for this to happen in this type of thread, and it is not. If you really wanted me to I could have predicted that someone on the hand cut side would get ticked about my post and that when I replied someone else would go off the deep end and turn it into something about me or Forest Girl. Tell me do you guys that are against hand cut dovetails and those other topic (like tablesaw/saw stop for example) use a script?
I now wait for at least two people to go off on a tangent about me totally getting away from the fact that the OP asked about jigs, he did NOT ask about how to make dove tails. Whats next? A post asking about what router bit maker is best for using in a dovetail jig, and getting posts about good dove tail saws? Then of course getting ticked when this is pointed out?
I suggest that those of you that have something against dovetail jigs, need to take a stress pill and relax. And if you don't want someone telling you that you are off topic. Then don't go off topic. Pretty simple really.
So relax, chill out, and back off.
Doug M (waiting for the next attack, for stating the truth, or an attack on my spelling, let me check my copy of the script that you guys are working from to see which)
Edited 1/9/2009 11:42 am ET by DougMeyer
You insist that you’re not against a thread going off topic yet ridicule those that set it off topic while sending the thread completely off topic. (That’s 2 contradictions that you executed at least twice.) You scorn people whose passion prevents them from posting in a dovetail jig thread while you’re not able to contain your own scornful passion to point this out. (That’s a 3rd contradiction.)
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Nobody has ever insinuated that “real men hand cut”. (That’s 1 gross exaggeration.) Nobody has insinuated that “real wood workers” need to develop a hand tool-based skill set. (That’s another gross exaggeration.) Nobody has said that wannabes with fancy tools use jigs. (that’s a third exaggeration.) Now, maybe people have done this in previous threads, but I have not seen this and I’ve been here for a long time. (That’s a 4th exaggeration.)
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Just because you (twice) state that you’re not opposed to a thread going off topic does not mean that you’re not. In this case, at least, you clearly are, as evidenced by you posting nothing relevant to the original post in the first place. You state that you’d never go back to a non-variable jig but you give no reasons why. Tell the OP why if you want to be on topic.
No representation without taxation
Edited 1/9/2009 12:22 pm ET by MattInPA
Sean, it's not that the suggestion to "do it by hand" gets some of us cranky. IMHO, it's (a) the lack of relevant information presented and (b) the "put-down" tone of certain responses, intended or not, that developed immediately after the original post.
Perhaps Mike didn't mean to aggravate, but "5 or 6 over a couple of years? Why bother with a jig?" is a terse statement that suddenly sets him up as the authority over the OP's judgement, time management and work preferences, and throws the whole thing into a Ford v Chevy-type argument. It became very hard to find any detailed feedback on various jigs, jigs which certainly are in the armory of several Knots members. I can't imagine this happening if he were seeking info on a SCMS or a mortiser or whatever else.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here's an effective jig:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41718&cat=1,42884
Saw's fine teeth are a bit slow an hardwoods, but a friend of mine swears this thing works great, and his dts look fine.
FG,
A storm in the proverbial teacup, at bottom. Still, I admit to stirring the cup with me spoon a bit. :-)
As I mentioned in an earlier post, those keen to push their handtool preference down the throats of others don't take kindly to being told they are obsessive proselytizers. No, no - they are merely answering the question. Of course, they are answering the question they would have preferred rather than the actual one: not "What is a good jig" but "Why is handcutting DTs better than making them with a jig".
Well, hopefully the OP has considered the jig recommendations and gone orf to have a look at the various web sites. Meanwhile the galoots must be allowed to chuff a bit otherwise they fill up with pomp and might burst.
Perhaps Knots needs a machine tool / jig fanatic to push into every thread on saws, chisels and planes with a lecture as to why a router, RO sander and a jigsaw is a much better option? Doesn't happen, does it?
Lataxe, sick of the handtool purists knocking on the thread door to tell us how we can be "saved by this message".
Why don't you try that for a week, Dave? You answer only the precise question asked by the OP and as concisely as possible. Say nothing more.
See you in a week.
I'm not gonna bother to try to "save" anyone else. I've learned my lesson. Don't want to be seen as the JW ringing the bell at dinner hour with the good news.
Sean - who's learned his lesson
Sean,
Shurely shome mishtake - you wantin' me to practice what I preach!? :-)
As you know (it was you who convinced me) I enjoy the process and the look got from using hand tools. It's definitely become my preference. Still, I ain't forgotten the machine-tool only years nor rejected the furniture made during that time sans-planes, chisels and such. In fact, the machine tool still plays a significant part in my woodworking, as it does in yourn I think.
So, I have sympathy with chaps who want to acquire a motorised semi-automatic tool and (even now, in my enlightened semi-galoot state) don't want to push my preferences on to them. Were I to push my preferences, you would all be having to give up your cars and take to the pedal cycle. Then there is the matter of dress....... (no suits allowed, nor them garish and flappy shorts you Americans all wear. Oh yes you do)!
Now, I did promise not to lecture a while back, despite it being my hobby (just ask the ladywife) so I'll try again, not to speak sternly to the woodworking religiosi, even to the fantical jig-burning galoots (not you, I hasten to add, nor any other in this thread).
As to that LV saw-jig thing: where is the automatic marker-outerer? :-)
Lataxe, taking off his half-moon specs and putting his wag-finger away.
As you say - tempest in a teapot.
I think what bugs me is that the folks mentioning handtools were doing so in good faith - not trying to convert or brag or whatever - just tell a beginner about an option they might not have considered. But as the saying goes: "no good deed goes unpunished."
Also I think proposals of alternative ways to accomplish the same thing are rather enriching. That's what my door thread was really all about. And I for one would not mind a bit if I asked which tenon saw to buy to cut cheeks and someone said they love their TS tenoning jig or using their bandsaw or their router or what have you.
I would not welcome thread police <tsking> in my tenon saw thread, however.
Edited 1/9/2009 2:48 pm ET by Samson
Sean,
".....folks mentioning handtools were doing so in good faith".
This is true but also a telling phrase. Those Mormon lads that come to the door and won't go away are just the same - they're pestering me "for my own good" and trying to save me from myself. Should I just agree to their strange tale that I am an evil sinner then go off to give them my money down at the tabrnacle? Ha! Not a chance.
Rather, the best tactic is to get the rascals in and argue the ears off of them. They get tired and go off. In the meanwhile, they a get a proper chance to convince me of their message's truth.
In fact, this is what we have been doing in this thread - not policing it but having an animated side-discussion about the general galoot proposal that handtools are always best, cheaper, quicker, more satifying, versatile and blah blah. This is a board for discussion, isn't it, rather than merely preaching to the great jig-using unwashed? Inevitably there is <tsking> from all involved in the conversation, of one tsk-variety or another. (I prefer a cuh meself).
I was hoping to wear the starry-eyed chisel-wielders down a bit by examining their assertions, is all. But they don't care to be questioned, one feels. Thus it is with the faithful everywhere. They just know they're right and that everyone ought to be just like them.
Of course, if discussion is uncomfortable for galoot-preachers, they can always go off and try to get a conversion next door, in the next thread. :-)
Lataxe, who prefers reason to faith.
PS Incidentally, no one will thank you for being right, which ingratitude is also part of the punishment for doing (unwanted) good deeds.
"Of course, they are answering the question they would have preferred rather than the actual one...." Too funny.
I have inside info on what he has ordered, but I'll guard the secret with my life. It's nothing pedestrian in nature, not to be found on Amazon, LOL. Hopefully, he'll brave the galoots and let us know how he likes it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Wow, didn't mean to stir up so much trouble. I have, however, sort of enjoyed the opinions. I am sorry that I only received relatively few suggestions out of the ,so far, 60 or so posts. I actually researched all of them, and I have ordered a Gifkins Jig ( never even mentioned), as most of my work involves small boxes and I like the idea of using it on my router table. I have plans to, in the near future, learn how to hand cut dovetails. There are no classes here in the mountains of northern Utah, so it will be self-taught. If I feel the work is good enough, after some practice, I intend to try a blanket chest. If not, then I will look for a larger jig to do that.
Since the Gifkins is made in Australia, and only distributed by Japan Woodworker, I'm guessing that not many Knots people are using, or even aware of it. It looks to fit one of my needs. I will post my satisfaction, or lack of it, to all.
And to all who are interested, Mike H, and I are on excellent terms. As with many e-mails, what appears in writing can be far from the writer's intent.
Thanks to all Knotheads,
lostcreek
It will be interesting to hear of your experience. I assume you ordered the special dovetail bits, too? Or does it come with those? I hope you have good luck with it.
The bits come in the basic kit package, as well as backing boards. $250, in case anyone's interested. They are even going to loan me their copy of an instructional DVD. I will give my humble opinion when I've used it a time or two...
lostcreek
"Perhaps Mike didn't mean to aggravate, but "5 or 6 over a couple of years? Why bother with a jig?" is a terse statement that suddenly sets him up as the authority over the OP's judgement, time management and work preferences, and throws the whole thing into a Ford v Chevy-type argument."
Already apologized for the terse statement (for which I offered the admittedly lame excuse that I was pressed for time when I posted that one.) If you read my later posts in this thread, you'll see that I did go on to offer my opinions on the router jig I use as well as a recommending a video on hand cutting, and have never argued that either way is wrong -- only that a newbie shouldn't be intimidated by the false mistique surrounding hand cut DTs.
For what it's worth, the OP was very gracious in his response and (after a follow-up post) was far more open and understanding than some of the subsequent posters on both sides of this tiff.
I don't recall anybody in this thread suggesting that using a jig is "wrong", or that hand cutting is the only "right" way to accomplish this. FWIW, the OP's follow-up indicated that he wasn't considering hand cutting, not because of time management or work preferences, but that, as a new woodworker, he didn't think he'd be up to the task. He also said he intended to learn how to do hand work.
I'm a bit surprised at the vitriol that been flowing in this thread. IMHO, it's always better to have more than one trick in your hat. That's why I was encouraging the OP to give the saw & chisel a shot, given that he had a couple of years to work with.
I must say, I can't understand why anybody would get upset by a suggestion that either handcutting or router cutting may be a viable alternative for consideration. One thing I learned early on -- there's almost never only one right way to do something.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"Already apologized for the terse statement (for which I offered the admittedly lame excuse that I was pressed for time when I posted that one.)" And kudos for doing so. "tempest in a teapot' as Latax said, and I'm sure the teapot will survive. I was simply responding to some comment about "purity police" that I thought was a bit of an over-reaction itself.
"vitriol" -- hmmmmmm, maybe I didn't read closely enough (have skimmed most of the 60-some-odd posts), but all seemed pretty mild by historical standards. Not to say I'd like it, though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
IMO , forget it, I know nothing. Lurking is fun here at knots, totally agree with Ed Harrison the novelist from another thread. Very interesting group of personalities here at knots. My one ? is , How did Mel stay out of this one?
Tom.
Edited 1/11/2009 9:23 am ET by gofigure57
There are dozens of jigs on the market, and all probably do a reasonable job. The choice, it seems to me, depends on what your objectives are and how much you want to spend. The higher-end models, like the Leigh and the new Porter Cable OmniJig allow for variable spacing, but at a premium price and with more fiddling.
Although I hand-cut dovetails for "special" projects, I also wanted a jig that would do router-cut joints with convenience and repeatability. I ended up buying the Porter Cable 4212 for several reasons. First, templates are available for both "normal" stock thickness and thin (1/4" to 1/2"), and it does half-blind, through, and box joints. The frame holds the pieces firmly, giving greater precision and repeatability in my view than clamp-on templates. The frame, however, is limited to board widths of 12" or less. That wasn't an issue for me. (The PC OmniJig will go up to 24" widths) You can also do skipped-pin (wide tails) variations on the 4212 with a little planning. And, you can use the templates off the frame for wider boards, if need be.
The key points to remember, I think, with any jig is that it's best to work with the spacing (dimension interval) of the particular jig when designing the box or whatever. With the 4212, the ideal board width for the regular template is increments of one inch plus a quarter, so you end up with a half pin on both ends. With the PC mini template for thin stock, that's 1/2" + 1/8" increments. Having the pieces precisely the same or corresponding dimensions and precisely square also minimizes potential headaches (e.g. mis-alignments when assembled). A shooting board helps in this respect.
Ralph, you make a valuable point about dovetails jigs that use comb-type templates. They tend to be limiting or at least they determine the size of your work if you want to do the traditional half pins at the ends. I expect there are a lot of woodworkers who are surprised to find that out after they've purchased the jig.
I'm not all that fond of those types of jigs because I don't care for dovetail joints that look like zipper teeth.
For router cut dovetails, the movable guides or no need for guides in the first place removes that limitation.
Edited 1/8/2009 2:48 pm ET by DaveRichards
lostcreek -
I too struggled with hand-cut DTs (shaking hands?) and decided to use a hybrid approach I learned from Steve Latta in FWW 152. (Mark Duginske also has an older article using a similar method on the TS.) Essentially you build a simple jig and use two different blades on your TS. The great thing about this approach is that you have a large degree flexibility in sizing the DTs.
Lostcreek
Check out the Chestmate jig at http://www.praziusa.com/index.html. I havent used one but it looks intersting and fool proof for only $100.00.
MB
Yes all these pros and cons are well noted I like to take the best of both worlds approach jigs and hand cut. But the fellers using all hand tools use modern things as well ,shop lighting instead of candles and oil lamps. One of the most famous quotes I use when a parent comes into the school shop and says I could build awesome furniture with all these tools.....I ask them if they had Da'vinnci's brushes and paints could they paint the Mona Lisa?
As promised, here's my opinion of the Gifkin Dovetail Jig that I decided to purchase. I received it from Japan Woodworker, in California, and it took 3 days to arrive here in northern Utah. Package was intact and all pieces were inside, including appropriate router bits. An excellent instruction booklet was included and I immediately set the jig up and made some dovetails. Mind you, I had never before used this nor any other jig for dovetails. Instructions were clear and the first pair of boards were acceptable, but a little loose. I removed 2 shims as advised and voila!, perfect joints. Couldn't be simpler or safer...or easier. Never again need to set up the template, either.
The "above the table" system provided excellent stability and accuracy. I highly recommend this jig for small boxes and drawers. The only drawbacks are the fact that it only does through dovetails so , for drawers, one would probably need a false front, and , since it is manufacture "down under", all measurements are metric, so many would have to make the mental conversion or purchase a metric steel rule. But even with that issue, accuracy is not that critical as it's easier to have the joints set proud a little and plane or sand flush.
The price was $250, free shipping, and several other templates are available for different sizes of tails.
Thanks for your help and opinions...
lostcreek
Enjoy it -- and post some pics of the boxes when you get 'em done.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hmmmmm. At that price, the limitation to only through dovetails would seem to be a real disadvantage, particularly for drawer making.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
Maybe, but to me, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. It allows router table use, it's a "one time" setup, it's extremely easy to use among others. And...I rarely make boxes and if I do, I can easily make a false front. Lastly, it's my first jig and I can always "trade up" someday if need be...
lostcreek
Lost:
If you are looking for an inexpensive jig that is accurate with easy set up, you might look at the Keller. It only does through. And by moving the template, you can vary the spacing.
I have just used it for a set of drawers and I'm pleased with it.
Hastings
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