I am trying to decide on a dovetail jig. I had an inexpensive model from International but the plastic cams break and now I have a nice paperweight. I do not want to purchase a $400 jig that I will only occasionally use. What do you suggest?
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Replies
Spend a little more and buy a WoodRat. Not only does it cut dovetails, but it will cut almost every other joint you can think of as well. The more I have used mine, the more uses I find for it, not just cutting joinery. It is becoming rare that I ever step into my shop now and don't use my Rat at least once. Plus, there are some new attachments coming soon to make the machine even more versatile. Check out this message board and ask any questions you'd like:
http://www.woodrat.com/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi
Good luck!
Jeff
I am really intrigued by the Woodrat. Can you give me a mini review of what you like/dislike about it?
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I am mostly a hobbyist but sometimes do commissioned work. In the past depending on the piece, I have cut dovetails by hand or used the Keller jig. I don’t really like the look of the dovetails that the Keller produces and when I looked at the time spent on handmade dovetails I realized that I am really losing money. Most of my dovetails are half-blind for drawers but I also do some small cabinets with through dovetails.
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My first thought was the Leigh or Akeda then I started readying a bit about the Woodrat. At this point I don’t know what to think. Every article about the Woodrat points to the steep learning curve and it seems that a lot of them just hang on the wall without being used.
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I would love to hear from users that have owned one for a while about the use. I have ordered the DVD and am interested in watching it.
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Thanks - Frank
Overall I am very happy with my WoodRat. However, it's not the end-all router system. They try to make you believe you can do away with your router table, but there are several things that are still easier to perform on a table than the 'Rat. Still, it is rare that I don't use the 'Rat at least once every day I'm in the shop (I am a hobbyist as well).The DVD is fun to watch, and will probably sell you on purchasing one, but it doesn't really teach you how to use the 'Rat. The manual is better, but still not the greatest. My best source for education has been the web. There are a few websites out there that have been really helpful. The WoodRat website has a message board frequented by a few master 'Rat users. These guys have been very helpful as well.It's not that there is a big learning curve with this machine, it's more that it is a different way of thinking, and you kind of need to retrain your brain. But once you get it, it's like a lightbulb turns on. The DVD will give you a pretty good understanding of how it works. It's really very ingenious. As for performance, I am very pleased. Since it allows you to powerfeed the wood through the router bit, you can climb cut the workpiece and rarely get any chip out. I was showing it off to my father-in-law over the weekend and he was really surprised by how clean it cuts. A downside is it is messy, and I've yet to figure out a good method of dust collection.check out the website http://www.chipsfly.com, and also this site: http://www.aldel.co.uk/Let me know if you have any more specific questions.
Thanky you very much
Frank,
I too have been a rat user for some years now and would endorse all that's been said here about its virtues.
The essential thing about the rat is that it is a univeral jig, capable of being used to cut many, many shapes (ie joints, moldings and so forth). As such, its a great enhancement to that other universal tool, the router.
The rat works by allowing you to make controlled moves of the router bit in any direction (including directions angled at other than 90 degrees to the workpiece) but also allows you to move the workpiece independently, via its travelling vices.
There are two vices which move in unison. This means that you can often use a workpiece (eg your drawer side with the tails cut by the rat) as the template, locked in the second vice and registering on a temporary index mark, for cutting the matching pins. You don't need to mark out the pins from the tails - although you can do that too, if you prefer that method.
Because both the router and the workpiece are held down, you can move the bit the "wrong" way over the workpiece (climb cutting) which eliminates breakout. You can cut very clean joints, including the best dovetails, finger joints and tenons you will ever make.
The rat can be used as an upside down router table but generally a normal router table is better as gravity is going the "right" way. But if you don't want to spend another large sum on a router table, the rat will do any job the table can, with an extra jig in its jaws (eg a small. stiff brush to push a plank up for molding).
Personally I did find the learning curve steep when it came to using the rat to cut the more complex joints it is capable of making. However, dovetails, finger joints, tenons, mortises, sliding dovetails and various moldings are all very straightforward.
The rat inventor has continued with various developments, one of which is the very skinny 9:1 slope dovetail bits in HSS. These really do allow you to make classic-looking skinny dovetails, that can also be variably spaced. I'll post you a photo of some I just made, in a little while....
Lataxe
Frank,
A pic as promised. The dovetailed timber is cherry (the runners are ash).
The drawer is just over 4 inches deep, including the runner.
Lataxe
Edited 4/18/2006 3:46 pm ET by Lataxe
That is great, thanks!
I don't have a jig- I usually cut my DTs by hand. There have been a number of threads about DT jigs. Among the most popular are the Leigh and the Akeda. The Leigh is quite flexible, well made, has an excellent manual and very good customer service. It is expensive however ($400), and has a fairly steep learning curve. For occasional use, it may not be the best choice.
The Akeda is easier to use, well made, but a bit less flexible than the Leigh. It's about $300, but users were able to use it "out of the box" to cut DTs.
The Woodrat is more of a system than a jig, is fairly expensive (~$625), and not really for casual use.
Another option that some really like is the Keller, which has a number of models from ~$150-$350. They are said to be easy to use.
Perhaps others can contribute their personal experiences...
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Out of interest, Why don't you mention the omnijig?
<<"Out of interest, Why don't you mention the omnijig?">>I haven't heard anything about it.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
OMNI-JIG by Porter Cable - advertised as "the industry standard for years." Surely you've heard of it - or was it so bad in your mind that you've dismissed it. Almost any woodworking catalogue lists it.
<<"OMNI-JIG by Porter Cable - advertised as "the industry standard for years." Surely you've heard of it - or was it so bad in your mind that you've dismissed it. Almost any woodworking catalogue lists it. ">>I have heard of the PC jig- did not know that they advertised it as the "Omnijig"... or that it is "the industry standard". Didn't actually know the industry had a "standard"... must have missed that conference. That said, I have not used the PC- others have, some seem to like it. My previous thread on jigs was neither an endorsement nor a review, just a summary of what has been compiled on Knots and elsewhere on the subject.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Ed,
Buy a quality dovetail saw, a couple of decent chisels, and learn to do them by hand. You will have much more flexibility on how your DTs are set up, how they are spaced, etc. After your first dozen or so, you'll find that they are not hard to do and can be just as fast as (and often faster than) a power tool solution -- by the time you get done doing all of the adjusting, test cuts, etc.
A good new dovetail saw will set you back about $125; a used one somewhat less. A couple of very nice chisels -- about $50. A mallet -- $25 or make your own. You're set for less than half the price of any decent quality DT jig (not to mention router bits, etc.).
Have fun, and good luck!
James
Several years ago I went to Woodcraft to buy a dovetail jig. They suggested an IncraJig and I bought. It does a good job and is not too tuff to set up - BUT, unless I have a lot of dovetails to cut for a "not-so-particular" piece, I still cut by hand.That said, my hand-cut dovetails are not perfect, but I'm getting better. It just feels good to lay the joint out and then chop your dovetail joint. Jerry
Hi
If you are in the market for a dovetail jig have a look at http://www.gifkins.com.au/
The site has box making plans, and DVD's
Tony Ward
http://www.tonyward.org
Check to see if there is a local Woodcraft store in your area. They are advertising a FREE dovetail demo tomorrow, 04/15/2006 at 1:00PM. You might change you mind and decide to spend the $400.00.
Edited 4/14/2006 11:23 pm ET by Mrhermit
I went to the demo at the store in St. Louis. The guy had not used the D4R before. He had the older (he indicated much older) version of the leigh jig. He had not had a lot of time to prepare, and he was having a rough go of it. The other one demo'd was the porter cable. He was getting the joints right, but there was a noticable gap between the pins and tails. I could tell he was getting very frustrated with about 7 guys standing around watching. He finally went and asked the manager if the unit in use had ever been used. The manager said no, and it was just pulled off the shelf and put together prior to the demonstration. When the instructor did a review of the assembly he noticed that the two guages that are on the left and right sides were reversed. Did not know you could do that, but now I know. once he reversed those two things, the thing worked fine. I like the total varability, and seeing it used in person is better than any manual. I just can't get off the bucks to buy it.
Recently purchased Porter Cable 4212. Due to a great deal being available, I also got their miniature jig. It worked right out of the box. I did a project of 7 drawers with through dovetails in back & sliding dovetail to attach fronts. The machine does not offer great versatility, but for ordinary, perfectly fitting joints, it is a great choice. Check Amazon.com for price comparison. Your router must use 1/2" shanks. Mounting Porter Cable guide bushings is desirable also.
I have heard good things about the Keller. It offers a basic system which can be added onto as the need arises, thus giving a feeling of economy if not the real thing.
Cadiddlehopper
I second the saw and chisel route. best way to go. I didn't buy a Keller jig, (best on the market), until I started doing blanket chests by the hundreds.
ED33: I'm an old man trying to clear out my shop. Over the years I have purchased at least 3 DT jigs which are now stored under a bench, unused. I would be willing to sell these at a very low figure, all or one. Reason: I cut all by hand now. A few years ago I spent a week hand cutting and made fine progress and forgot the jigs. I am not a professional so time is no problem. If I can help give me a shout.
Ed I have the Keller jig. Its simple to use, you can dovetail any length of board and its cheaper than the other jig you had..about 150 at woodcraft. All it is, is a resin (plastic) finger guide and two router bits, you supply the wood for the support.
Rick
I am new to woodworking and bought the Porter Cable jig. Got to say that it was very easy to use and does everything the Keller does plus half blind and box.
For about $150 I thought it would be the best option for me. First time I used it it worked very well, can't say it was perfect but it was very nice for a first timer =).
I have the Omnijig, PC 4212, and dovetail saws and chisels. The Omnijig was the industry standard even before PC bought it. It has the ability to make any size dovetails you want if you purchase the templates for them. It even can adjust it like the Leigh with the moveable fingers. The only criticism I have of the Omnijig is that with a 24" model narrow drawers don't stay clamped very well. I guess I should have bought the 16" model, but that was 10 years ago. I bought the new PC jig a year ago for small drawers when I am making a lot of drawers. It is a good product out of the box with a very short learning curve( less that the Omni ) and easy to setup and leave it alone. It can only do 12" drawers or less ( 90% of my work) If I have a project with a few drawers and it is for family I hand cut the dovetails, but it does take a lot longer, especially in hard maple. The new PC jig deluxe version is only about $130 and it has your bit included.
A buddy of mine has a Woodrat and loves it but he said it to him quite a while to get used to al of its quirks, but he swears by it.
So overall, not counting the price difference, which jig do you like the best, the Omni or the new jig? I have owned the Omni forever. It has been loaned out and I wouldn't have had time to use it anyhow. Hope to get retired soon and do some woodworking.
I Like the dovetail profiles on the new PC jig because the shoulders of the pins are thicker because it has a 8 degree bit instead of the usual 14 degree dovetail bit. I own both and I use the PC more because most of my drawers are 8" or less and the OMNI does not grip the narrower board as well. I still use the OMNI if I want to make varied dovetails because I bought the adjustable finger attachment.
MLCS has a dovetail jig that looks identical to the Keller jig except it is aluminum rather than phenolic and much cheaper. I've used one on several projects and it works quite well. Art
I almost bought this one over the Keller but I liked that the Keller router bits had bearings over the guide bushing approach of the MLCS unit. I would have rather had metal.
Take a look at the Veritas Dovetail Guide. Not a jig for a power tool, but an ingenious and simple guide to cut dovetails by hand with a very short learning curve. The guide and saw http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=41718&cat=1,42884 is about $50. I got mine for half that on eBay. It helped me learn to make hand-cut dovetails that came out very good at the 1st try. Very slick!
John L
Ed33,
We need more information:
-- What type of DTs do you want to do, half-blind, full, sliding, etc?
-- How wide a joint do you want to do: drawer-width (<12"), chest-width (<24"), or unlimited (>24").
-- Are fixed-width pins and tails OK, or do you want variable-width tails? Do you want variable-width pins as well?
-- What thickness range of materials will you be using?
It's unteresting that you ask about dovetail jigs and then get lectured on how you should cut by hand. It's up to you whether you use a jig or cut by hand. It is good to do at least a few projects with hand cutting, and I've done that, but now I use a jig.
I've owned a Leigh jig for ten years or so. It's tricky to use and takes a lot of time to set up every time. The biggest problem (as far as accuracy is concerned) lies in the use of bushings. Slop opr inaccuracy in the bushings means slop or inaccuracy in the joint.
I very recently purchased a Keller jig - the cheapest one they have, the 1500. I think it's great. It's very simple to use and accurate. It only does through dovetails, but that's all I'm interested in. I recommend it very highly. Don't be put off by the fact that you pay $150 for something that looks very simple. It's the results that count.
If you want half blind dovetails, I can't really make a recommendation, though I looked at the Akeda recently and it looks pretty good.
I have a Leigh. It will perfectly cut about any dovetail, but it takes a lot of time to set up if you try to cut dovetails different from the last time you used the jig. The user's guide is the best ever written for any tool I own so there's no problem learning how to make cuts.
I also use a Rockler jig (about 60 bucks)for 1/2" half blind dovetails. I leave it set up only for drawer sides and fronts. It does a great job and I use it a lot, but only for that specialized type of dovetail.
I'll vote for the Keller jig. Relatively inexpensive ($150). No limit to the length (my first project was a chest with ~16" tall sides. Many jigs would not cut that).
It took some tweeking when I first set it up. The tightness of the joint is adjusted by how far the pin side of the jig is set from the backer board. Once I got it thought, the rest of the joints have been just right.
http://www.kellerdovetail.com/
I bought a Keller that was on the clearance table at Woodcraft for about $125. I had read quite a bit that it is easy to use. I am a newbie so that was important. I didn't feel a need to do half blind or variable spaced DTs.
I just finished my jig for the Keller and made a small maple box tonight. The jig is maple. I used 3 3/4 boards for the main part and 2 3/4 boards for each side holder. Screwed and Glued for stability. It didn't take that much to adjust it for a tight DT. I haven't tightened down the box yet as the DTs are so nice and tight I don't want to try to take it apart.
One thing I like about the Keller is I can use it with my router table and don't have to hand hold the router.
I am really happy with the purchase.
Sir,
Recommend a couple of things:
First, Learn to cut dovetails by hand. This will greatly increase your hand tool capabilities, sharpen you eye and give you a tremendous appreciation of dovetail jigs. There is an excellent and very helpfull book by Ian Kirby available called the Complete Dovetail. I've found this helpful in developing an understanding of and appreciation for, the dovetail.
Then, take one of two alternatives:
1. Purchase an Incra Jig Ultra Lite for about $150 (available at Woodcraft and on-line). This gives awesome flexibility. I've upgraded since then and have been very happy with the results and capabilities of the Incra Jig. Also, I mount the same jig on my band saw and drill press quickly and easily. There is a little learning curve for cutting dovetails on the Incra, but once you have the hang of it, you can be very productive. For more detail check out the website at Incra.com
2. Purchase a PC or other dovetail Jig. They are not difficult to use, but flexibility is limited.
After you've cut some dovetails by hand, you'll be really appreciative of jigs. They all have a learning curve and take some practice, but for productivity are worth it.
Regards and good luck,
Shaun
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