Replies

1. 
   JDorn | Jun 25, 2003 12:38am | #1

   i'm by no means good at hand dovetails but i have found that using an exacto knife or other marking blade works better than an Awl, and ALOT better than a pencil.

   Give it a try.

   JD

2. 
   BG | Jun 25, 2003 01:23am | #2

   Biscardi,

   Are we having fun yet?

   I practiced by the book for about four months doing a set of thru-dovetails in 6" wide mahognay each morning and each night....had them laying all over the place.  They did improve over time, however I think the key is noticing where the weakness is in your technique and accomodating the weakness.  For instance, I'm left handed, cutting the left to right slope no problem..with my eyes closed I stay on the line.  Cutting right to left however...not so hot.  So with thru-dovetails I turn the board around and that way they are all left to right.

   When marking tails or pins to the other board I put the uncut board in the vise almost flush to the workbench top....then I'm only holding one board while marking.  Marking the pins, I use a mechanical pencil and cut to the inside of the line. Lastly, on the base line, I use the veritias type wheel to mark and then follow(re-mark) that with a square and sheet vinal cutting tool.  I place my stock (vertically)on the cut line in the front vise of the workbench and rest my chisel on the vise stock to get a nice square cut.

   The point is to determine your weakness and mitigate the risk of a poor outcome you can't correct....I don't plan on eliminating all my weaknesses through continual practice...         

3. 
   PATHFNDR | Jun 25, 2003 01:36am | #3

   Dude.....buy a Leigh Dove Tail Jig.....you'll be an instant expert with thru an half blind joints in no time.  I used to cut my own, but the time and effort involved just didn't make it practical.

4. 
   Alan | Jun 25, 2003 02:40am | #4

   Biscardi,

   I use Saint Roy of Underhill's method to mark out the pins:  I first saw the verticals for the tails, but I don't remove the waste.  I then clamp the pin board in the shoulder vise with its top edge even with the top of a piece of scrap laying on top of the bench (the scrap must be big enough to support the tail board).  Then I clamp the tail board on top of the piece of scrap so it lines up with the pin board.  And last, I put the saw into the kerfs on the tail board and pull back with enough pressure to slightly mark the pin board.  When I cut the pins, all I have to do is to saw on the waste side of the marks.

   This has always worked perfectly for me.  I even use it with half-blind dovetails.

   BTW:  you have to lay the already cut tail board on a piece of scrap so you won't be cutting into your shoulder vise when you mark the pins.

   Alan

1. 
   Crunk | Jun 26, 2003 12:31am | #8

   FWIW, that's essentially what Joyce recommends.  Saw the tails, but before you chop out the waste, mark your pin board by drawing the dovetail saw through the kerf.  Of course, the pin board is in a vise and the tail board (with the saw kerfs) is lying atop the pin board flush on the edges.

   It will work fine.

5. 
   Kell | Jun 25, 2003 04:42am | #5

   Biscardi

   I don't know if I've ever done more than a dozen dovetails over the years where I said or thought, "That's perfect!"  You do get better over time as you pick up new techniques.

   I tried a new trick last month when I was doing a simple box for my wife.  I put the board in the vise to cut the tails and fixed it so that I was cutting straight down each time, flipping the board after doing one side of the tails.  It caused me to make the best looking tails I've ever done.  I was so jazzed, I wanted to build something else just so I could cut some more.  Haven't that kind of a rush, at least not in the shop, in about ten years.  It was probably the four best I've ever done and you know what?  They still weren't perfect.  I always know where every mistake is.

   Don't give up just yet.

   Kell

6. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 25, 2003 01:55pm | #6

   I think the biggest problem I have is steadying the tails on the other board while I mark the pins. I probably also need to loose the pencil and use an awl.

   It sounds like I've cut only a few more dovetails than maybe you--and mine are all through-dts, so no great shakes, but if you want to steady tails against the board for marking pins, use a picture-frame clamp. You can clamp it, go to dinner and come back an hour later to mark.
   I've also come to the conclusion (tentatively, since I'm still a beginner), that it's not so much the difference in a pencil or awl as knowing what your marks represent to begin with. If you mark with a pencil, but know that the pencil marks are wider than an awl scratch, you should be able to modify your cut enough to compensate ("split the line" as Klaus says, I think). My major problem with hand cutting dovetails has always been keeping a method of layout in mind, to which end I wrote my own Beginner's Treatise on Hand-Cutting Dovetails {cough}.

   Whatever you do, don't give up. You will get better at it

   ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/25/2003 6:56:01 AM ET by Norm in Fujino

1. 
   BarryVaBeach | Jun 26, 2003 12:57am | #9

   Norm - excellent explanation of dovetail layout and procedure.  I can tell you went to a lot of trouble in writing it, and taking the pictures, but the results are worth it. If they had a FAQ or Articles section on this site - I'd nominate your treatise for it.  Keep up the good work.

1. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 26, 2003 08:45am | #12

   Thanks, Barry. I really consider it a work in progress, since I'm not that experienced anyhow. I'll probably continue to change things here and there as I learn more about the process myself.

   ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

2. 
   BG | Jun 26, 2003 03:29am | #10

   Norm,

   Thanks for sharing your pictures and thoughts on dovetails.  I'd love to see you reproduce those draws with a LN dovetail saw.....in my experience, the LN makes you keep your wrist out of the action..which helps keep the saw perpendicular to the board.  I had a heck of a time when I started ...I had three saws with round handles and keeping the blade perpendicular was a problem.  Just a thought...

1. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 26, 2003 08:42am | #11

   I'd like to try the LN sometime, though right now I have found the douzuki to work pretty well. I agree that perfectly round handles are poor, however. Some kind of shaped handle is preferable to give your hand a sense of directional orientation.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

7. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jun 25, 2003 11:58pm | #7

   Hi Frank,

   I've never had an issue with this.  When I was trained to cut dovetails, I was trained to use an exacto knife or a stanley knife.  Gets an exact fit.

   The two common ways to hold the board steady have already been mentioned (corner clamps or vice).  Here's how I do it (assumes that you cut tails first).

   1. Pick up anything with a bit of thickness to it from your bench.  Butt of a try square is probably what I end up grabbing 60% of the time.
   2. Put this next to the vice jaw and parallel to them
   3. Put the un-cut board end into the vice, so that the end is level with the top of the try-square
   4. Move the try square at least 12" away from the vice and lay your already cut board onto it.  Superimpose the tails (if that's what you've cut) over the uncut board.
   5. With your right hand (I note that you're left-handed) hold the tails side down and use an exacto knife in your left hand to mark the position of the pins.
   6. Finish marking out and cut.  I might be telling you how to suck eggs here, but always aim to leave the shoulder of the knife cut behind to ensure a tight fit.

   If you cut the pins first, of course, the above approach won't work.  In this case, you simply lay the uncut board onto the bench, press the pins onto the board in the correct location and use an exacto knife to mark out the location.

   In your stock-in-trade, I think you may be able to come across something a lot more technical than an exacto knife and far more accurate.

   Hope that this helps.  Shoot me an email or ask here if you've any further questions. 

   Cheers,

   eddie