first let me say that most of the dovetails i have cut in my life have been with a router and dovetail jig. I have spent most of my woodworking years as a powertool junkie…more machines…bigger tools…spinning faster…more power…aggg aggg aggg…..
up until the last few years i only used hand tools sparingly for fine tuning machine cut jointery. recently i have started using hand tools for more and more. I have found it to be far more relaxing and enjoyable, so i have started making a concerted effort to do as much as possible by hand and really educate myself on the most productive methods for handwork.
last weekend i took a class on handcut dovetails at a well respected woodworking school. the method the instructor advocates is to saw your pins to your layout lines, chop out the waste with a chisel, use your pins to lay out your tails, mark them with a KNIFE, saw +/-1/8″ to the waste side of your layout lines, chop out the waste with a chisel, and then pare to your layout lines.
it works well, but i’m not a big fan of leaving that 1/8″ to pare off of the tails to get to your layout line. I tried cutting closer to the knifed line, but quickly found out that my saw tends to want to track in the knife line, causing the kerf to split the line instead of being to the waste side.
how does everyone here handle this?
Do you mark with a knife or a pencil?
Do you try to saw to the line or leave waste to pare away with a chisel?
Does anyone just saw to the line accurately enough to preclude the need for paring after the cut?
how did the old timers who worked in production shops do hand cut dovetails?
Replies
i'd suspect that if your saw wants to track in the knife line, your saw may not be sharp... only dull tools will follow the grain instead of where you want it to go.
saw is plenty sharp...not following the grain, but following the knife line...path of least resistance and all of that...
Let's see if I can explain my self clearly here !
I cut the tail first and when I go to mark the pins, I set the tails aboul 1/32 deeper towards the face of the drawer, I mark with a knife and saw into the knife cut, the knife mark is where the cut is supposed to be. Works for me !C.
so you offset your layout marks to allow for the thickness of your saw kerf
does this work consistently for you?
Yep
cscwem,Cutting dovetails is like "sharpening" as a topic. It lends itself to religious discussions. Everything works for somebody. Nothing works for everybody. My belief (and that's all that it is) is that the best thing for any woodworker to do is to take a week and cut a lot of dovetails -- to do it in as many different ways as possible, using as many saws as they have in the shop. Really, try cutting them with your hacksaw. Depending on what blade you have in there, it'll work.After you cut a lot of dovetails in different ways using different saws, you just come to the conclusion that it ain't worth talking about for a long time. Some things work for you. Some don't. Stick with what does. I still haven't tried a bowsaw but I am going to, as soon as I make my bowsaw. If Tage could do it, we should be able to.If you want to get tired of reading about dovetail cutting, just do a search on it in Knots. There are an infinite number of posts on it."Cutting to a line" is important. So one thing to practice is to cut to a line. Take a piece of scrap wood and make a bunch of lines on it and cut to them. Make them at different angles. Do more cutting. There are a few tricks you could try. Let's assume you are going to cut your tails, and you have already knifed the lines on the ends of the boards, and you have Xed out the waste parts. Now take any one knife line, and on the far side of the board from you, take your knife and notch to the line on the waste side. Now you have a v shaped notch which if flat in the direction of the cut, and is exactly on the outside of the line. Now rest your saw in there, and "aim". Make sure you have the saw lined up and in the right plane. Then you start cutting. If you want another 'guide', then put your left thumbnail on the other side of the sawblade from the notch. Use that as a second guide. Don't press down. Let the saw do the cutting.Mostly, relax, and make a lot of cuts. After a while, you will have gained skill, and you'll relax more, and the worry will go away.Then make some actual dovetail joints and THEN practice fixing your mistakes. It is easy to insert a sliver of wood in one that is too big, and it is easy to use a ball peen hammer to "fill up" a hole that is too small for a sliver of wood. I hope that helps.
Enjoy. Like sharpening and old age, it will come. Worry about something else.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
mel...thanks for the response. my question was really more about what technique everyone uses for layout.
I'm happy with the saw i use and am fairly proficient with it, cutting to a line is not the problem.
I agree with you that like anything else practice is the key to proficeincy.
i was hesitant to post this at all since it seems every other post is about "what is the best saw for cutting dovetails" or "i'm new to woodworking and was wondering how to teach myself to cut half-blind interlocking curved dovetails in a weekend"
I actually cut pretty nice dovetails right now, but it just takes so stinking long. I know that there has to be a more expeditious approach to this.
What method do you use for layout and how much clean up/paring is required as a result of that method?
Cscwem,
Sorry I misunderstood.I would not be a good person to give advice on how long it should take to do dovetails or anything. As a hobbiest, my goal is to spend time doing woodwork, not minimize time so that I can maximize income. Why don't you write directly to Ray Pine at joinerswork. He is super proficient, a nice guy and a good teacher. I always make my joints so that they don't fit (too big) and then I have to pare down. I err on the large side, and plane/pare down. Guess I am "conservative". I mark with a knife, and then I put Xs in the waste, and I go over the knife lines with a small mechanical pencil so that I can see them better. After cutting the dovetail joint, I tap them and see how far they go, and then look at the "shiny" spots, and pare those down. My goal is not "expeditious". My house if too full of furniture to accept any more. Luckily all my my kids and their spouses like my work, so I give it all to them. Someone will be able to help you out. Write to Ray and tell him I suggested it.Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
cscwem,
Given that you cut a reasonably good dovetail already, why not just cheat a bit to see if that saves time? It would be fairly easy to do if you cut tails first....just cut to the line(knife line) on the pin on the face side(face side=faces in)and outside the line on the show side. Usually the face side of the pin is extra tight because the angle on the tail is less than perfect(thickness of the saw blade). This technique would give you some flexibility but not a whole lot of work....maybe
I used to use a knife to mark DTs, but I now use a sharp pencil. I find it doesn't tend to follow the grain as much as a knife does and it's just as accurate once you get used to the pencil line vs. the knife cut. (Frank Klaus talked me out of the knife and into the pencil in his fine video on cutting DTs. Check it out.) I'm a weenie in that I always "X" out the waste portions of the joint before cutting -- I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I cut to the wrong side of the line before I accepted my weenie-ness and simply started marking the waste side every time. I also saw (coping saw) the waste out of the joint prior to chiseling for hardwoods such as red oak (not a Klaus method, but I like it -- saves a lot of pounding on my old joints!), but chopping pine or poplar is so easy, I often don't bother. For half blind DTs, I use an old scraper or saw blade to pound into the kerf and flatten the bottom half of the cut, then I chisel out the waste. I will often use a small router plane to finish the bottom 1/16" or so of these -- makes a nice, straight, smooth line across the joint. I use sharp butt chisels for DTs -- way less tiring on the wrists than longer bench chisels and I find I can get more accurate results with a shorter tool. I also use a metal carver's mallet instead of a wooden one. More "umph" for less work since it's heavier and more compact.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I follow the Frank Klausz method, little to no paring at all, get his DVD. Make sure your saw is very sharp, (file it for rip teeth), and the set is balanced, otherwise it will wander all over the place. I have a couple of wide blade bow saws that I use for DT’s. I too use a sharp hard drafting pencil, it makes the line easy to see and follow with the saw. I also have a set of old but chisels that I like for DT’s, the short blades are more comfortable for me.
I use a scratch awl to mark the tails (from the pins)- it tends to follow the profile more closely and leaves a light mark. Because that is hard to see, I mark over the scratch with a mechanical pencil with a 0.5 mm lead (the narrow lead leaves a very precise line, ~1/64 of an inch). When you saw, leave the line. Use a well sharpened saw, cut for ripping. Practice, practice, practice (and you'll be cutting DTs at Carnegia Hall in no time...)
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Last year I took a class for hand cutting dovetails also. I found that marking a straight line and cutting one is quite a different matter. The instructor recently came across some inexpensive saws, Zona I think, and they cut quite well. Of course he can cut a complete dovetail box and conduct a conversation at the same time. It is all about knowing the tools. Keep trying and it will get better.
Greg
See 30561 in the Jigs etc archives, 50 odd (some very odd) posts.
I don't handcut dovetails but I have alternated between marking knife and pencils for layout of mortises, etc. (Too often, the basis for decision is: Whichever one I can find at the moment!) One thing that has helped me a lot is using really hard pencils. I got the 2H hardness ones from Lee Valley: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32538&cat=1,42936
I'm sure you can find similar quality at art suppliers or someplace similar. They hold a very fine point and even in cherry they dig in a little when marking while still making a fine line. As long as you're experimenting, I'd recommend trying this if you haven't.
I agree about the pencils from Lee Valley. Interestingly I have not been able to find the 2H pencils in any art or supply stores in my area (which includes 3 major universities with art departments). So I ordered my from Lee Valley, which also justified ordering a new plane and some other things to justify the shipping charge :). I use the sharpening technique of Jim Kingshott of sharpening the lead to a chisel point with a chisel and sand paper. The result is a very fine line that actually cuts a slight groove. I was also taught to mark dove tails with a scribe, ala Frid, since it will not follow the grain, particularly on end grain.
You probably have a Staples store near you, there you can find mechanical pencils that take a 2mm lead (same size as a wooden pencil) the higher you go on the H the harder it gets, I have some 7H !
Usually the push button has a sharpener inside but you can buy sharpeners as well, very handy.C.
I too take much of my limited knowledge from Frank Klausz, however I took the class, never saw the video. What he does is mark the tails from the pins with a pencil, mark the waste ( yes even Frank will put an X on the waste) then cut. He recommends cutting just on the waste side of the line for hard woods and splitting the line for soft woods.
Edited 9/29/2006 3:30 pm ET by samrocky
If I understand the question you are asking, I saw winners. I NEVER leave some then pare down. I think this is a losing strategy as it guarantees the need for paring of every joint. I can see why your teacher would take this approach. Its a safe way to make great joinery. But on the flip side- its an obvious way and I'd be mad if I paid a teacher to show me the obvious. The real challenge in hand tool joinery isn't some magic method, but simply learning to saw straight. In my opinion, he should have focused the class' attention on that and gave really bad sawyers extra attention. Also, he should have drawn out how the fit betweenteh tails and pins is effected if not governed by where you place teh chisel whr you chop out the tails' waste. If you put your chisel in the scribed baseline and whack it, your chisel WILL undercut and leave a looser joint (because you are moving the wedge shaped pins in and out). So any discussion of leave the line, split the line must include the baseline.
I know for a fact that no one alive knows how they did it 250 years ago when all production work was done by hand. My guess would be that they didn't leave the line then pare- saw the board then shoot it, etc. That approach just takes too long. Wherever they could, they must have tried to saw straight first as that's the absolute fastest way to work. The only exception I can think of are long rips, where sawing fast and sloppy then planing to the line is faster than sawing super carefully. Or at least that's been my experience.
But I could be wrong. I was talking to a sawyer operating a pit saw operation in Williamsburg last week. Their saws have about 1 tooth/inch and the saw is 8 feet long. They can easily hold a line within an 1/8" (not +/- 1/8") and can produce very respectable 1/4" stock. So if they can do that with a pitsaw, I'm probably wrong- 18th c workers probably had no problems holding lines with hand saws.
Was that the question?
Adam
Like Anon, I rely on LV's pencils everyday. Handy, reasonable in cost and both the graphite and wood are what pencils use to be.
OK, back to the question. I mostly use a marking knife. Once in a rare while I will use one of the aforementioned pencils. What I like about the knife is it "never" needs sharpening.
At the risk of offending you, a saw should not track to a knifed line. In all likelihood it is the eye steering the saw to the line subconsciously. Which is why I saw to the lines, though I do fudge it a bit in softer woods "knowing" they will go together fine. Soft hardwoods like Poplar I do not as it splits so easy. Though I shoot for a proper fit from sawing, there are X number of tails per side I probably tweak with a chisel. But any paring other than at the baseline is a risk for creating a poor fit.
Like Adam, I do not pare right on the baseline, or I purposely mark the base line a hair above where it otherwise marks out for the pin board thickness. Paring on the line when marked to full depth is an invitation for a sloppy fit otherwise.
I do use a coping saw with a thin blade for removing the waste and leave about 1/8" or so at the baseline. I pare using the widest chisel which fits to almost both sides, a couple light slices and finish the corners.
Take care, Mike
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