I have decided to try handmade dovetails. So far I have determined that I will need plenty of practice. I will also need to use the correct tool for the job, therefore, can anyone suggest a good dovetail saw for me to consider?
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If you are looking for a dovetail saw you have to check out Japan Woodworker.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com
Good luck in becoming the Dovetail Man.
Aloha,
Two schools of thought - traditional European countries still use 8", 20-24 tpi dovetail saws (brass-backed - similar to tenon saw). A lot of the world now uses Japanese pull-saws - either is clean and accurate, but I personally find the Japanese pull-saw easier to use, with a far sharper and cleaner saw kerf.
Good luck - dovetails aren't as difficult as they're made out to be to cut- just make sure that you use a marking knife or cutting gauge along the base of the pins/sockets to get a neat, clean finish, as well as the sharpest possible pencil/marking knife to mark the position of the sockets from your pins when they are cut (I cut pins first then the sockets).
A lot of people doing half-blind dovetails use a fishtail carving gouge or a old chisel reground to a fishtail profile to clean out the sockets, as a regular chisel is too thick to fit in the corners of the socket. Just letting you know this if you have one of these beasties in your toolkit.
Enjoy the hand tools,
Eddie
Edited 7/24/2002 8:59:20 AM ET by eddie
Aloha,
The "proper" saw to cut dovetails is a fairly short back saw with rip teeth--because cutting dovetails is almost always along the grain. Unfortunately most so called dovetail saws come with cross-cut teeth. (I don't know why. Rip teeth are much easier to file than are cross-cut teeth.)
Lots of saws come with very fine teeth: anywhere up to twenty-five TPI or more. This, IMHO, is way finer than they need to be. My Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw came with fifteen TPI, and that is plenty fine enough.
The saw should be about ten inches long, give or take a couple inches or so. The back should be plenty thick and the blade rather thin. Make sure the back is heavy and straight, and the blade is straight. I prefer an open handled saw rather than a turned handled saw or a closed handle. I hold the saw with my index finger pointing down along the blade--which seems to give me better control.
You certainly can get by with a cross-cut toothed saw for a while. You can pick them up dirt cheap at the usual used tool places: garage sales, flea markets, etc. Some are not all that much brand new. If you get a cross-cut tooth saw remember that sooner or later you'll want to re-file them into rip teeth, or get a proper dovetail saw.
I seem to remember a rip tooth dovetail saw in one of the major catalogs for not much money: forty or so dollars. Or you can take the plunge and get a first quality dovetail saw from Adria or Lie-Nielsen. You can also check E-bay and various other web sites that sell saws (sorry I cannot be more specific).
You will also need some chisels to remove the waste between the pins and tails. The sizes are up to you; but remember that the narrowest tails you can cut can be no less than your narrowest chisel. The chisels best suited are bevel-sided--so they can fit into the taper-sided spaces. I also have two skew chisels, one left and one right, which are very handy in reaching into the corners of the pin board when I'm making half-blind dovetails.
Happy dovetailing.
Alan
I have been "practicing" using a Japanese style pull blade and like the idea of pulling to make the cut rather than pushing. However, I have been doing the vast majority of my cutting with a power tool (table saw, circular saw, compound miter saw) and have used a hand saw very sparingly. The hand saw I have used is a pull saw so I cannot really say that a more traditional "push" saw would not be more appropriate. I am concerned, however, about the handle of the Japanese style pull saw causing a deflection of the angle while cutting. Not to mention that it seems to be somewhat discomfortable to me to use the pullsaw for any length of time. Perhaps I am using it incorrectly?
In any event, it is amazing what a little practice will do! My first attempt "fit" together, but falls apart if you pick it up. I have progressed (within a week) to making a "tight" joint that will stay together. I just need to work on the asthetics of the joint at this point. I am sure the correct saw would help with this. In addition, I "knew" and will now proceed to (as Eddie suggests) mark the pins and tails with a sharp marking knife.
I have looked at the Japanese models available from Japan Woodworker as well as the Lie-Nielsen and Adria "traditional" models. I must say that I am impressed by (and leaning towards) the Adria model. It seems to be very well made and I particularly like the one year guarantee.
You've gotten excellent feedback from the previous comments. Biggest challenge for me was learning where to make the saw cut, in relation to the mark, on the second board. Watch your bevel edges when working in the corners - sometimes mine "bite" into the side of the pocket if I am not careful. And use that first trial (that falls apart) to experiment with filling in gaps with thin slivers of wood. I cut them on the table saw usually, sometimes whittling with a sharp knife, depending on grain direction needed. It's amazing how completely such a repair can disappear. If you have access to a video by Frank Klaus on making dovetails it's a great learning experience. I learned as much about methods of work and organization from things he was doing ancillary to teaching dovetails. Good luck!
Aloha,
I just visited Highland Hardware's site. They are the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned a cheap rip-tooth dovetail saw: they sell one for less than forty dollars. Not much less, but no need to pass up free money. (Remembrt Sears' old catch phrase? "The more you buy the more you save." And their spokesmen said it with a straight face!)
Alan
I just received my Adria dovetail saw about two weeks ago. It is a beautiful piece of work, and cuts extremely well to boot. I highly recommend them.
Will in Alabama
I too use a western style dovetail saw, a back saw, to cut dovetails. The advantage in my opinion is the sheer weight of the saw, which works for you if you don't fight it. My sawing improved greatly when I lightened up on my grip and let the saw work. The heavy brass back feels like it drives the saw on the course I set it on.
Ultimately, it's what you get used to I suppose. No matter which way you go - Eastern or Western - buy a reasonably decent saw. You don't necessarily need the most expensive of either style, but buying the cheapest is never a good idea.
GW has a clearence sale on both kinds of saws
English: http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?lGen=detail&itemID=101962&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=12010&iSubCat=12010&iProductID=101962
Japanese: http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?lGen=detail&itemID=102120&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=12010&iSubCat=12010&iProductID=102120
Rev Ted
Check out Peck Tools (http://www.pecktool.com) they have little a "Laminate saw" that I have used for a while. After a little tune-up idea that I learned from Peter Korn it gives a great narrow kerf cut. I tried the LN saws last year and just couldn't see spending that much when this little saw works great.
View Image
This saw has a blue blade and is designed for extremely fine cuts. Its blade is 10" long, has 21 tpi and a 1 5/8" depth of cut.
Cheers,
Greg
Edited 8/2/2002 4:14:44 PM ET by Greg
Edited 8/2/2002 4:15:42 PM ET by Greg
For many years, I used a cheap (sorry "inexpensive") Stanley dovetail saw, which you can find for less than $10.00. I pounded out most of the set and filed the teeth to a rip configuration (this was not necessary, so if you’re not handy with a file skip it). That saw cut very well, and made hundreds if not thousands of dovetails. I will admit that I purchased a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw that performs better, but it should since you could buy 12 Stanley’s for the price of one LN. I have since sold the LN on Ebay and purchased one of their carcass saws file for a rip cut, I liked the larger saw. I know nothing about Japanese saws, but their dovetail chisels are excellent, and you should purchase several ( I have the 3/16"& ½" plus a standard 1" Japanese chisel ). Also, anyone who reads my postings has heard this before, but dovetails are easy to cut, and do not deserve the mystique that surrounds them. All you have to do is saw and chisel to a line; you can’t get any more basic than that. A few practice sessions and you will be a proficient dovetalier. The Klause video is very good, and shows you how to work efficiently, it is worth watching, but I could never get use to cutting the pins first. I fI remember right, that video doesn't deal with half lap dovetails, which are not more difficult to cut, but they are more time consuming. I have attached a photo of some dovetails cut with that Stanley saw.
Aloha,
I too have recently decided to attempt handmade dovetails. The info presented here to date has been very helpful.
In addition, I was also in the market for a dovetail saw. I looked at saws by Adria, Lie-Nielsen and Garrett-Wade, all fine saws I am sure. In the end, I decided to try my luck at eBay and have recently purchased an old Disston saw (for under $20.00 with S&H) and look forward to seeing if it will work for me. I am sure I will have to clean it up a bit and probably have it sharpened, but I figured that the price was right for me.
Therefore, if none of the previously mentioned suggestions work for you, you might try eBay or one of the vintage tool sites out there.
Good luck!
Hi Rookie,
Glad to hear that the info is of help.
As well, here's a basic internet primer on cutting wood joints by hand.
Remember that this was put together for school students, where marking knives are not used (may give them more sharp pointy things to settle playground arguments with). I use a marking knife.
http://www.gre.ac.uk/~eduweb/showcase/d&t/schools/resmat/woodjoints/index.htm
They're not difficult - I think you'll be amazed at how easy they are to cut by hand.
Cheers,
Eddie
Eddie,
Thanks. Even I should be able to follow this example! :-)
RR
Thanks RR,
Combining these illustrations with the detail given earlier in this thread - posts by Rob, Dan & Alan, should give you the complete picture.
Enjoy,
Eddie
Edited 8/3/2002 8:03:20 PM ET by eddie
Hey Rookie,
Before you pay someone $20 to sharpen your handsaw, read the article by Paul Sellars..in one of the current woodworking magazines....I saw it yesterday...it isn't Popular WW, or American Woodworker, or FWW....one of the more obscure...
I took a class taught by him and he takes like 5 minutes to sharpen a hand saw...and talks about set and filing....everything you need....
Made me vow to sharpen my own saws...Now, if I could only sharpen my table saw blades as well as Forrest....lol
Good luck!
lp
Larry,
Thanks for the info. I will try to find the magazine and article, and possibly, attempt to sharpen the saw myself.
Sometimes, I wonder what I have gotten myself into! :-)
RR
Larry/Rookie,
This could be similar to what you're looking for.
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
Happy reading!
Eddie
Eddie,
Thank you for the link! I had seen this page before, but I did not bookmark it and I had no idea how to find it again. It looks like something I could accomplish with little risk of destroying to much equipment. :-)
Thanks again!
RR
Holy Cow! Thanks for the link, a very thorough article.
Has anybody tried the dovetail saw and guide from Veritas?
The guide and saw sell for $28.50
I'm pretty tempted by the Veritas dovetail guide and saw, though Lee Valley sells it for $46.40. Given that a dozuki saw typically runs about $35 and up, this seems like a good deal. Has anyone used it? 1:6 or 1:8? Thanks, Todd
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