I’m thinking I need a better hand saw for dovetails and other fine similar work. I’ve been using a Japanese-style ryoba-type $25 saw from HD. Vaughn, I think? It’s called a Bear Saw.
I’m wonder what folks opinions are on this; do you find it easier to track a line with a pull cut or a traditional Western push-style back saw? I’d like to keep it to $75 or less.
Thanks, all.
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don’t let anybody tell you different. –K Vonnegut
Replies
Charlie,
I prefer a Western style "push" saw, but that's probably only because that's what I've used since I was a tiny, little woodworker.
Those that use each type will have lots of good reasons why their style saw is best; but I think no such absolute conclusion can reasonably be made. We've all seen beautiful and technically superior work done with both kinds; both styles work just fine.
I think you may have a little trouble finding a new, Western-style dovetail saw in your price range. I got a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw a couple years ago, and IMHO it's worth every penny--but a Lie-Nielsen or an Adria would bust your budget. There are plenty of used saws of high quality offered for sale that would cost well under your limit. IIRC you can get a new, high-quality Japanese style saw for well under 75$.
Alan
I use both a Toolcrib pull saw with disposable blade...zero set has its advantages occasionally...and a basic Disston 68. Those Disstons are good saws and will last your lifetime...they go in the 20-30 dollar range on Ebay....try to get one with no pitting anywhere close to the teeth.
You'll be using hand saws occasionally for your entire life....I recommend you invest 25 bucks in sharpening equipment and learn how do do it as looks tricky but it's really dead simple...saw sharopening services generally cut new teeth as a matter of rote, shortening the life of your saw dramatically:
http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/saw/Restoring1.htm
http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_SharpeningHandsaws.htm
For most small joinery tasks, I prefer the Disston because I've used them for 40 years and cutting straight with them is second nature. You can learn to use either style of saw...I recommend you learn to use both.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Edited 4/10/2004 7:14 pm ET by Bob Smalser
This is going to be somewhat hypocritical of me, because I own two Lie-Nielsen Saws ( dovetail and tenon), but an expensive saw is not necessary for top quality work. For quite a while I used a Stanley Dovetail saw, which I filed to a rip configuration and removed all the set. Those two steps are the key to true cutting saw. Filing a saw is easy, and since the Stanley is only about $10.00 there isn’t much to loose. Removing the set will make cutting anything over 1-½-2” in thickness difficult, but dovetails are rarely this thick. I honestly can’t tell the difference in the dovetails I cut with the Stanley or the LN, and I still use the Stanley on very fine dovetails. All this I’m sure would make one wonder why I spent nearly $300 on LN saws, when the Stanley was so good, well I ask myself that same question. Seriously, I like the feel of the open grip on the L-N and I like the heft and aggressive cutting action of the tenon saw ( I almost always hand saw my tenons).
I have no experience with Japanese saws.
Rob Millard
I have a whole bunch of Japanese saws, some of which are
very old and top quality.
I take them in to get them sharpened and the guy just rolls
his eyes and says "Here's a nickel, kid, get yourself one
of these with the nice disposable blade."
I tend to break teeth out very quickly on the backsaws with
the disposable teeth, as they are very long and delicate.
However, I recently discovered the solution for this: the bamboo blade.
Bamboo just destroys the delicate teeth in a backsaw, so as a
result they came up with a hardened blade which has more robust
teeth and which pretty much never loses teeth. The steel is a little
thicker, too, so it tends to drift less.
I recently got one of the stealth versions of this bamboo saw,
with a black ninja handle and a knockdown screw that is integrated
into the handle (so it can never be lost). This is just about
the perfect Japanese backsaw.
I took a class in hand cut dovetails two weekend ago. Bought a L-N CC Dovetail saw to match my Rip Tenon saw.
Didn't use either. Instructor gave me a Zona (35-500 with 32TPI blade) to use and I put the L-N's back in the sack. This is a great little saw for about $6 - 7. Blade can be reversed to cut either on the pull or push (my preference). Try http://www.zonatool.com
__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
Edited 4/10/2004 11:24 pm ET by michaelp
Edited 4/13/2004 8:33 pm ET by michaelp
Charlie
I have several DT saws I've accumulated over the years. Some aren't even designed for DT's. There's the Greenlee, the Crown gents saw, a Japanese pull-style from Marples (now Irwin) with the replaceable blade, the Buck Bros. mitre that I re-set the teeth to rip and the new LN dovetail saw.
Which do I like the best? The LN western push style. If I had smaller hands I would have bought the Adria. Why do I like it the best? Because if feels the most balanced and comfortable in my hand.
Which does the best job and gives the best results? They all give excellent results with the proper tooth set and a dedicated effort to learn the characteristics of the saw. And we're talking from a price range starting from $4.95 to $125.00.
I think your answer lies in your own hands. Which saw for $75 or under feels good to you and are you willing to get acquainted with that saw well enough to get good results. IMO, good results can be attained from almost any hand-saw if it ends up in the right hands!
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'll put in another plug for the Zona. Someone here recently posted that Arnie Champagne uses Zonas to teach his DT class in SF. Arnie was in a Tools & Techniques class with me at College of the Redwoods last summer, and they recommend and use the Zonas there too. I've got an Adria, but I still reach for the Zona half the time ...
Plus - It can be configured as a push or a pull just by reversing the blade, and if it suits your needs, you've saved $70 (to be spent towards another desired tool, not for food or utilities or other similar frippery!) If it doesn't, you're not out much $ for trying it.
Clay
Clay
Thanks to you and Michael for the insight. I have heard mention of the Zona here, but did not know have excess to where to get it.
Not that I need a DT saw at this point, but it looks like a viable saw for the application and the money is right. I see the number of teeth at the web-site Michael provided, but are they set in a rip or cross-cut profile?
I have cut a lot of DT's on a English gents saw with a cross-cut profile. It's slow but the results are good if you take your time. This little Zona could be a real bargain, especially for someone that can't afford or warrant a higher price saw. At that price and if you don't know how to sharpen, you could dispose of it and have another on hand. It's cheaper than sending the saw out for professional sharpening.
You guys may be onto something good here!
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
Even better ... you don't have to either sharpen teeth or toss the saw, they sell replacement blades in a little 5-pack. I bought a pack from CoR last summer, but haven't needed to replace the first one yet. I can't remember the cost of the replacement blades, but it was seriously cheap.
They have a fairly thin kerf (though I don't see any real advantage to a thin kerf for DTs)
Clay
>> ... I don't see any real advantage to a thin kerf for DTs
Some hand cut dovetail enthusiasts believe there is special merit in narrow pins, so the thinner the kerf your saw will generate, the narrower can be the pins.
Clay
Thanks... I don't need one, but will probably foot for one at that price. Hey, life is short. I don't want to have the epitath on my tombstone, "He did a lot of things, but he never cut a DT with Zona! he.. he...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
sorry to hijack this thread but watch ya doin' next weekend ?
Ian
edited to add the dates April 16-18
Dovetailed Chisel Case with Chris Becksvoort
Chris Becksvoort is back at Highland Hardware 1045 N. Highland Ave., NE Atlanta, GA 30306 404-872-4466 to conduct another instructive and entertaining workshop. This time, he will guide you in the crafting of a case to transport and protect your fine chisels. The sides of the case will be made of walnut or other fine hardwood and dovetailed. The top and bottom will be birch inset in rabbets. The cradles for each chisel will be lined with leather to add even more protection--not to mention class!
Edited 4/12/2004 7:29 am ET by ian
ian
I had seen that seminar in the new Highland Hardware mag that just came out. I won't be attending as it's a bit expensive considering I can probably make a chisel case without 12 hours of training. I would like to see him do his thing though, as he's one I respect and have never seen. I have been to a Klaus seminar there twice. I think it would be worth-while for those that can attend.
I need a couple of items from there and put it off this week-end so I could drop by next. I will wander into the training shops as if I'm lost just to see if he's got a set of new LN chisels in hand. Or is it a Barr, Sorby, Marples, Stanley or Buck Bros.? ha.. ha...
I"m going to get to the bottom of which chisel does he "really use" when not in an adverising mode. Hopefully he won't read this here and intentionally switch to counter.
To answer your question, "what am I doing next week-end" the appropriate answer would be taking on a covert mission in order to get to help resolve "The Great Chisel Debate"!
:>) ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
Chris may even be using his $5,000+ set of custom made Japanese chisels !
I'm off to bed
Ian
ian
Now that would be worth the price of admission to see!
I should be going to work, but that off to bed sounds better..
he.. he...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
For those who can't pop for a $5,000 set, try these:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05.301.00&dept_id=11567
A true bargain at $196/chisel!!!!__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
michael
I didn't care for the feel of the Japanese chisels I tried, but I haven't tried them all. That is more in line with what I feel a good chisel should cost in comparison to what is capable of a "chisel". I feel that in the proper hands a chisel that is sharp can get the job done regardless of the cost. What I feel warrants the higher price is the grade of steel used that will hold that sharpness longer. Also if the chisel is hand-made as opposed to machine produced.
I do think that there are top-line chisels on the market that can be had for $20 or under. I have a set and could purchase at least two more sets of a different brand today if I needed them. When the price jumps radically above that it is just a matter of being over-priced or it falls into a collector category. For those that are collectors of fine tools, that is great. I am just a worker of wood and don't need the status that the very expensive chisels bring. Guess I'm doomed to be a "blue collar" wood-worker. :>)
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I was being somewhat (mostly) tongue-in-cheek with the "only this pricing" of the referenced set.
I liked the length of the two Japanese bench chisels I bought but found the handle a bit pencil like, and easy to lose your grip on if held only in the fingers. I also found the steel too brittle for the harder woods I work with.
Tim Sproul was gracious enough to drive down last weekend and take them off my hands so I would have more space for some American made chisels. I think I'll wait for Barr or Lie-Neilsen to get >$100/chisels before I buy another set. ;>)__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
Hello,
Funny this thread should come up now ;) I've been just about ready to get off the fence and try a first set of dovetails w/ some Lowes-bought poplar I have kicking around in the shop. The saws I have that I thought might work are a Vaughn/Bear saw (the little one w/ fine and extra fine - 17 & 21 tpi - on the two sides of the blade) and a cheap new production Stanley gents saw someone got me for x-mas. At this point I realize that for a little while my dovetails are probably going to look pretty scary whether using these or a Lie-Nielsen or a an Adria.
I was interested in the Zona saw mentioned earlier; the link to the website did not work. Is the link incorrect, or is the site down?
The thing that I think I would like about a traditional DT saw is the handle position. Other places I've read people mention that there isn't much of a middle ground btwn an old garage sale Diston or a new Lie-Nielsen, and that the intermediat priced Freud, Pax, and Lee-Valley saws weren't worth messing w/. Does anyone here agree w/ this view?
Thanks,
Monte
Milanuk,
I would probably agree with the lack of distance between the LN and the Disston. Last summer I picked up a Disston cross cut 15" for $5-10 and it is really great. I bought the LN about 1.5 years ago..and it is fabulous. Also, last summer I saw a box full of Disston dovetail saws...made me drool...but I resisted buying any. On April 23-24 there is an antique tool auction up in Nashua, NH...there will be tons of fine tools cheap....
Unfortunately, going to any sort of antique auction or swap meet or dealer entails a several hour (one way) drive over the pass to get to the metro area (Seattle) where there is a realistic chance of something coming up in this lifetime. So the odds of me finding a used nice saw for $10-15 are about slim to none. May have to start saving my spare change and whatnot for an Independence saw. It will really depend on some upcoming events in the household whether that's ####viable option in and of itself.
Guess I'm not real clear on where an inexpensive saw like the Zona or a cheap Japanese pull saw are OK, but a western style saw w/ the pistol-grip handle isn't? What's the difference? The steel, the set, what?
Thanks,
Monte
monte
You could try the Zona at that price. You can cut them with the saws you got if they are sharp. You could spring for a Independence that is a pleasure. The Adria is also.
The bottom line is you can cut those DT's with about any saw if you are patient and willing to learn. So, don't let the fact you don't have a LN, Adria or Disston stop you. WW's have been cutting them with less for a long time and will continue to do so.
I just purchased an INdependence after 31 years. It's a piece of art, but it's certainly not mandatory. I guess the bottom line is: "Just do it" as the Nike folks say.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have used western saws, japanese pull saws and the zona saw referred to here to cut dovetails, all part of my learning experience. If I were to pick one that I favored most at this time it would probably be the zona only because I think I like the size of the saw and how it fits the way I work, my hand, etc.
My choosing method was not very scientific, I would read an article or see a picture of someone cutting dovetails using a particular kind of saw and then tell myself that that was the saw I needed. Then I would buy it and try it. Everyone is going to be different on what works best for them. I still use all three types of saws to cut dovetails, I just favor the zona, but in time I may change my mind.
I guess I would recommend trying different saws and see which one gives you the best results, in the end that is what matters. If you only try or use a saw because it is the most expensive or the least expensive or because everyone says it is the best, you may be missing the one that is the best for you.
Monte
I corrected the URL. Sorry!!__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
While I am no expert on dovetail saws, someone I trust told me the main difference between the L/N saws and the $10 - $20 saws is that the L/N saws come properly set and sharpened from the factory.
Admittedly, the balance and figured maple handles are beautiful, but can the steel be that much different?
I have bought two rusty antique back saws that cut beautifully after a small touch-up with the file. I guess all I am trying to say is; unless you have disposible blades, you will eventually all need to sharpen your saws. After one good sharpening, the brand doesn't matter.
Regards,
Dan
>While I am no expert on dovetail saws, someone I trust told me the main difference >between the L/N saws and the $10 - $20 saws is that the L/N saws come properly >set and sharpened from the factory.
I agree. I've said this before on this forum. but it bears repeating:
I have a Freud dovetail saw that I paid about $30 for in about 1987. A couple of years ago, gave it a fresh sharpening and took it out to Woodcraft to compare with an L-N. Everybody who compared them said the Freud cut better. It does have a nice heavy brass back, but otherwise, it's nothing special.
Point is, almost any handsaw will cut just fine if properly sharpened and set up. I have an old, open handled English dt saw that feels better in my hand, but they cut the same.
You can pay all you want for a fancy name, but it won't make you a better wood worker than you would be with a good, inexpensive saw.
Michael R.
Thanks, that was kind of what I was wondering.
Thanks,
Monte
By the way, that old Freud has 10 TPI, and almost no set. You don't need super fine teeth to cut dovetails; it's basically a rip cut. I think one of the reasons others liked it so much is that it cut quick and clean with little effort. My open handled saw has 14 tpi, and cuts clean, but it takes another stroke or two per cut.
I couldn't imagine going any finer than 14 tpi for any kind of rip cut, including dovetails. Crosscutting on some really thin materials might call for finer teeth, and I do have a couple of finer saws that I use occasionally for crosscutting, but only occasionally.
Michael R
One other thing I was wondering: somewhere I'd seen a reference to someone (Tage Frid?) using a bow saw to cut dovetails. What're the pros/cons of that method?
TIA,
Monte
They feel kind of awkward to me, and anything that feels awkward isn't going to give you as much control, and it's going to be more fatiguing. Even a coping saw, similar in structure to a bow saw, is hard for me to get straight cuts with, although it's great for coping moldings.
Of course, if you've grown up with a bow saw as your tool of choice, possibly anything else would feel awkward.
All in all, I think a fairly rigid, straight blade with a handle that allows you to control the blade with minimum effort is easiest to use. That's why I prefer traditional handles over gent's saws and Japanese saws.
Good Japanese saws can be pretty impressive, though. I have a 12" folding camping saw that will crosscut a 2x10 in less than 10 seconds, and a deer leg in a whole lot less time than that. Only problem is, it keeps shedding teeth. Good thing I don't get to go hunting or camping much any more...........
Michael R
michael
If I did more timber-framing than I actually do, I would go for the Barr larger mortice chisels. They are a piece of work when it comes to really heavy timber. I can't justify them as I just fill in when possible with freinds that have timber-framing projects.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"I need a couple of items from there. . . ."
Need a couple of items? Don't kid us, Sarge - we're not your wife! You need a couple of items from Highland the way I need that nice brass Lie-Neilsen edge-jointing plane. Which is to say, desperately!
Mark
Opps! I left out thousand after the "of". With this economy being down, everything has to be down-sized including a word or two here and there to meet the budget.
I just need an item or two, but I always drive the pick-up and attach a trailer. You know, just in case! I suppose anything I can't fit in there could always be shipped UPS to the shop. Save a trip back with gas prices so high! ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Well, I took the bait. Oh, my....
My usual DT and tennon saws are Japanese, everything from Gyokuchos and Zetas to a handmade rip Dozuki, and I've never felt a need to look elsewhere. I have some fine work in purpleheart coming up, though, and was not looking forward to using a good saw on it, so said what the heck, and ordered a $5 35-300, on the theory that there was nothing to lose at the price, and that I have made much bigger mistakes than that (a well-proven theory, by the way).
The thing is tiny! My first thought was that if it didn't work out, I would grind the teeth off, safe the edge, and give it to my two-year old, since it is perfectly scaled to her and her 18" high bench. Then I started cutting... wow. At 32tpi, it is not exactly fast, but the tracking (well, to the entire 1 1/4" that it will go--plenty for most drawer work) was dead true, and the cut quality was amazing.
Still feels like a toy, and there is no telling how it will hold up, but it would cost less than cup of coffee and a muffin to replace.
I have a friend that went the ~$12 gents saw route to save his good saws from nasty wood, and after a half-hour's filing (he is better than me at this), it cuts very well. I can't wait to tell him that he flushed $7 and a half hour of his life for nothing.
Thanks, Clay!
/jvs
Re; "I have made much bigger mistakes than this."
Yup, used that one myself a few times - sometimes to justify some real doozies, whose repercussions may echo for years, but as long as I've made WORSE, as long as I'm not setting some sort of new personal record, I often proceed.
But, wasting $5 on a saw would rarely even qualify as the worst mistake I've made before breakfast that day!
Glad you liked it - I've only ever used it on small pieces, so the 1.25 depth didn't strike me until you mentioned it.
Clay
PS - Might as well order the extra pack of blades ... how much purpleheart you got to cut?
Yup!
Not a lot of stuff--just a display case and some shadow boxes that could just as easily be mitered if it wasn't for a pesky case of OCD....
I'm tempted now to try a few the bigger saws when I order the next round of blades. Ever tried a 35-350/35-380?
/jvs
Funny - someone asked me which Zona model I use, and I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't know! I bought mine, and the blade pack, from the school at College of the Redwoods, and (naturally) promptly tossed out the wrapper. I didn't even know there was more than one type, until the question was asked.
So, let us know what you discover. 32 tpi sounds about right from my memory of mine. (My shop's 15 miles away, I can't hop out and check.)
Clay
Will do--found the specs here http://www.zonatool.com/razorlist.html, and ordered from Hobbyline.
Thanks, again!
/jvs
Just a question if I may. I checked the Zona website and could not locate an item number for the raplacement blades. I also use that saw and would love to get additional blades. Any information you or anyone can provide would be welcome.
thanks.
I noticed that too!
I got the blades at the school, same as the saw - I'll try to ask David W and let you know if I find anything out.
Clay
Re: the Zona, I went to the site; I assume you're both referring to the "razor saw"? I might give it a try; which kerf are folks using?
And, for $10, I might try the Stanley set up like Rob suggested. Also, thanks so much for the sharpening/setting info. Definitely worth the read...
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
My woodworking started with a class at the north bennett street school, and when the time came to pony up the money for tools, Our instructer praised a 12 dollar blue bladed thing. I have since gotten the LN because it was pretty, but still use the twelve dollar saw. I am not afraid to sharpen the teeth on it, it tracks beautifully, but alas is not as nice to hold as the LN. Buy the cheapest saw you can find and learn how to use it and sharpen it and whine to your wife for one for xmas or valentines day.(I have convinced my wife that a hand tool i will have til I die is romantic.)
Dustin
I have a bear saw and it never ceases to amaze me. I have not tried for dovetails. I inherited an excellent english style gents saw. You can get one for about $150 from Highland, Woodcraft or Garrett Wade. I wish I could tell you a cheaper one will do. The truth is I cannot do nearly as well with my Japanese razor saw that cost about $100 from japan woodworker.
I cut some tennons today with the english dovetail saw after making a mess of one using the Japanese saw. Spend the 125 or so you will not regret it.
Lynn
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