I am looking to buy a a western dovetail saw. Proably pistol grip like Adrian, LN, Wenzloff, Any opions or suggestions. I was dissapointed that the recent review didnt include the Wenzloff and other smaller lesser known companies.
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Each of us has our own "way of doing things"
For my part, I can't imagine anyone who wants a dovetail saw for cutting dovetails would consider anything other than a Dozuki "Z" saw. It may just be me, but a saw that cuts on the push is more difficult than one that cuts on the pull.
The Dozuki will cut dovetails with it's own weight and I love the thin kirf that is made straight as an arrow. It should cost somewhere in the low $40's, A L-N would cost more that $125.
I have both a rip Dozuki (LV)and a LN DT saw. The Dozuki is easy to learn how to use, but the LN, if started properly, will follow the line extremely well. It's really a matter of personal preference. If money is an issue, buy a used Disston #4 and have it sharpened for ripping. You'll probably get something close to the LN for less than half the price.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I recently compared the LN, Adria and an old English Backsaw which was sharpened by Tom Law.
The LN saw cuts to a line very well along with the Adria. I would say they are as good as they get for Western saws. The Adria did cut quicker then the LN but the blade on my LN has seen quite a bit of use so I can't truly say for sure. The set on teh Adria seems to be slightly wider and the sidewalls on the cuts are not as clean but like I mentioned it does cut quicker
The handle on the Adria fits my hand better (larger hands) but the blade on the LN is longer and I like that as I am used to it.
There you go. Clear as mud?!
They are both good saws. I own the LN and will keep it cause of the length. The Adria belongs to a friend who let me borrow it for a comparison test.
The Tom Law sharpened Sorby cuts much quicker then the LN and the Adria however the set is a bit much and the sidewalls are pretty ragged. In all fairness to Tom the blade was kinked slightly so I believe he sharpened it with more set for this reason,
I haven't tried Mike's saws but they sure are pretty and I am sure function well
Cheers
Dan Clermont
I probably shouldn't even respond in this thread seeing how my name was mentioned.
I just wanted to say that if one goes for the Disston #4, which is a closed handled saw, or another vintage saw of this type, the saw plate is often quite a bit thicker than an open handled saw. So if one goes for such a saw for small joinery, pick one that is short--not one which has been shortened. Its saw plate will be relatively thin. Ease of cutting joinery is the only issue. They all work.
These saws, as well as decent open handled saws, can often be had for relatively little money if one has patience and waits for the right auction to come along.
With a little instruction which is available on-line, you will be able to learn to sharpen it and it will serve you your entire life. As opposed to a throw-away saw. The first saw you sharpen may not look the best, but will in all liklihood cut well enough to get moving forward.
Just make sure the seller will post a picture of the tooth line to ensure it is straight and has no cracks, at least ones not very long or makes a declaration those two criteria are met. Retoothing will take care of those. You just need a good 1 1/2" of usable depth or more with good teeth afterwards.
As well, sometimes a saw which has a great handle and back but the blade is rusted out can have a new blade put in for realatively little money. We do it all the time. It's a great way to return a vintage saw to service and have a good saw for little investment.
Lots of options from which to choose. Do take Adam's advice. Consider what it is you either do make or intend to. The types of woods you do/intend to use. Look around, make a decision and learn the saw. Any saw can perform well. Sometimes it is just a matter of listening to it.
Hey Adam--looking forward to the article. So is that the next issue or the one following?
Take care, Mike
Mike,I lose track-I think make your own try square is next- then saws. Adam
I think make your own try square is next
Cool! Great project. Looking forward to it.
Take care, Mike
I agree with you about favoring an open handled saw over a closed one- I prefer the LN for that reason, as well as for its overall quality.I have a D4 that I use for crosscutting- it is about 60 years old, so it is not one of their collector's classics, but the blade was in very good shape, aside from a few worn and missing teeth. I had it recut and sharpened- my total investment was about $30, and I use it for tenons. Although my hand is bit too snug in the handle, it cuts very well.My only point is that if someone can't afford a LN or similar high quality new western saw, you are better off buying a good condition old Disston (the #4s are plentiful and inexpensive in my neck of the woods) and getting it sharpened (or learning to sharpen it yourself) than to buy a cheap new saw at HD or on-line. You can restore a good old saw to greatness, but you can't put quality into a saw that never had it. It is the same argument for buying inexpensive old Baileys rather than inexpensive new Anants. If you are on a budget, you get a better deal (and learn more about the tool) restoring old tools than buying new.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Yep--and I agree with you. I probably rambled on too much to be clear.
Just wanted to mention the plate thickness issue if one wants a saw for small joinery. A thick plate is harder to push, which to me makes it harder to keep on line and or simply expend more effort. So if one wants a saw for small joinery that has a closed handle, best to look for a Disston #4 size saw with a natural 10" or 12" blade as it will be made from thinner steel.
As well, there is the handle hang issue too. An open handled saw is generally made with higher hang than a closed handled saw. Which for many makes small controlled cuts easier. But as I also mentioned, it just takes getting use to the saw at hand and any joint can be cut with practice.
Lot's of good vintage saws out there. My favorite vintage small joinery saw is a 100 and some year old Moulson. Great old saw. Second favorite is an old Patterson, which is older than the Moulson.
Take care, Mike
There are a lot of good saws out there BUT:Saws aren't as generic as planes. One reason more folks aren't using saws may be that they are using the wrong saws for the job because that's what they found at the flea market. The Disston #4 is not a great saw, IMHO. It can be made to work. The Disston #7 IS a great saw, if you can find a good one with the right teeth- but that can be difficult.I think saws are a wee bit harder to use than planes. So for beginning sawyers, I'd prefer they have better, more highly optimized saws. That's why I'm hesistant to recommend a saw to the OP. If he's looking to purchase a new saw, AND is willing to do some amount of research, he should be able to choose a saw that really screams and is easy to use.AdamP.S. Exactly how thick is the #4? Are they all the same?
Hi Adam,
RE thickness. The 10" I have is .025". Not bad. But the short ones are difficult to find. They do come up once in a while. The wonderful old Fulton I have of the same length is also the same plate thickness.
The is as thick for small joinery as I would recommend. But I have also cut joints with some real hacks for saws back when I didn't know thinner saws existed. Just not good for the thin DTs or in my own experience great accuracy.
The issue for me is that they take progressively more effort to push as the plate gets thicker. More effort, to me, translates to more chance for error--or at least I have to pay more attention <g>...And for one new to handsawing joinery, that can put them off, or it becomes a saw for other tasks it is more designed for and a new saw is then purchased anyway.
Buying a vintage saw long distance is certainly more gamble than a plane. There's less one can do if there is a bad plate than one can do to rectify a plane purchase, other than start over looking. If it does work out, there is a savings. Usually at added expense of time. Time to clean, learn to sharpen and replace any parts which may not be in good condition.
New saws are like nearly any tool new. One is not only buying a tool in optimum condition, but there is the comfort that one can rectify a purchase if something is not what they expect. For instance, I've had one saw come back to get refiled [reset a little heavier really] and one come back to straighten the spine. No problem. Lot's of apologies and happy customers following the return of saws they now enjoy. This holds true for the other makers and retailers as well.
Take care, Mike
Hi Mike
Pete Taran states that one chooses the fleam angle according to ones choice of wood to be sawn. Can you explain this in plain language?
I can add that the difference in starting a cut with my LN Independence and a vintage John Cotterill is night and day, with the latter by far the easier. This is down to their differing rake angles. The LN is very upright with 0 degrees of rake, while the JC is probably about 8 degrees. Once the cut is started, the LN races away as it cuts more aggressively. Cutting with the LN requires more concentration at the start, while the JC is more relaxed. Both cut with equal accuracy (both are 15 tpi rip and with "minimal" set). The JC cost me $10 and I sharpened it myself (no big deal - rip is easy to do). A decent dovetail saw need not cost much.
While I now do most of my sawing with Western saws, I have used Japanese dozukis for a long time. They are extremely easy to use and cut a fine, accurate line out of the box. My two favourites are a Z-saw (very well balanced) and the LV rip dozuki (less smooth). There is a problem with these saws if you work hardwoods (as I do). The teeth are fragile and tend to break off rather too easily - hence my preference for Western saws. The Japanese saws are better suited to softwoods.
I am not sure what the fascination is with thin saw blades. I have cut dovetails as easily with a thicker bladed tenon saw as with a dedicated dovetail saw. Certainly, some kerfs can be too thin to slide a jewellers saw blade down (to remove waste). Japanese dozukis fall into this category. Yet some rave about their "thin" kerf. Surely what they really mean is that the set is very fine and the walls are left quite smooth?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
I believe LN now uses 8 degrees rake. Hopefully someone can confirm. Adria uses 4 I think.
The large Kenyon tenon [19" blade] I did for one person has about 4 degrees rake and a little fleam [between 2-3]. Easy to start and cuts very well. So a relaxed rake and fleam does translate into easier to start.
Woods such as Oak and Pine are grabby and benefit from more set. The fibers don't shear as clean and so the fibers can grab at the saw plate. This applies to full sized saws as well as small joinery saws.
Woods that are very hard such as what we in the US would call exotics or you saw everyday present other challenges. That is shear hardness. Fewer teeth with additional rake and a tad of fleam resolve that as the cut is more a slicing action, as opposed to a pure chisel action.
The thinner plate translates into easier sawing as regards effort, especially for a rip when everything else is equal [i.e. rake and fleam]--consider pushing two different 90 scrapers. Say one has a blade that is 2 1/2" wide, one is 1" wide. Which is easier? That is comparable to using a saw that has a .020" plate verses a .040" plate like found on a larger #4 backsaw, new or vintage.
I think especially for a beginner, the easier the sawing, the less one has to pay attention to the effort being expended. In handtool classes teaching joinery, the people I see having greater success learning to saw to a line are using a saw with a thinner saw plate.
Take care, Mike
MIke,I assume that since all of your saws appear to be western style, they all cut on the push stroke. Is there any reason you couldn't make one of your saws to cut on the pull stroke? I'm sure there is an obvious answer to this, so apologies that I am overlooking it. I learned on japanese saws and am fundementally more comfortable using a saw that cuts on the pull stroke, but I have found the japanese saws to be fragile, and am seeking the best of both worlds, from my point of view that is.Thanks, tony.
Hi Tony,
I have made one pull rip, and will be making a few more in the near future. The one I made for myself is used to cut the kerf on stair saw--kind of ironic I suppose, using a pull saw to make a push saw.
The first ones we are going to make will all be rips of various sizes. I am not happy with my sharpening ability on the faceted cross cut pull saws at this time. Practice, practice practice.
Once we have a couple made they are going to be tested by one very familiar with them and once the feedback is processed we will introduce them. At first they are for small joinery.
Take care, Mike
Mike, that sounds very exciting. I will keep my eye out for further developments on the message boards, where i assume you will be reporting on this project as it progresses. thanks, tony.
Valid points.I would just encourage you and others to remember that western saws can be a hard sell to a new WWr. The Japanese saws are relatively inexpensive, widely available in decent or better quality, and work right out of the box.I have been WWing for about 12 years, but seriously for about 6. Years ago, I took courses for a year or so at a local art school. They had a large, well equipped shop, but as you might imagine, the hand tools were in "distressed" condition from the hundreds of students who used, but did not own them. When we first cut DTs, the instructor had a supply of Dozukis available for ~$35. Compared to the western saws in the shop, learning and using the Dozukis was a snap. They were brand new, very sharp and it was easier to start (on the pull stroke).This is not an uncommon experience. There are many threads in Knots from newbies seeking to buy tools and equip their shop. Many are amateurs, with limited budgets, day jobs and families. They can drop $50 to LV for a Dozuki, but >$100 is a stretch for a handsaw. Moreover, their experience with western saws is likely to be of the local hardware or Home Depot variety, which is unfortunate. I live outside a major city (Philadelphia), and I am not aware of many local outlets to find and try good western saws before buying. For some WWrs, that is a big barrier. On the other hand, old Disstons are fairly easy to find (especially around Phila!), they are not too expensive, and they can be recut and sharpened for ~$15. While your comments about plate thickness and hang are enlightening, I'd just like some newbies to try a good western saw- any decent sharp saw- and practice with it a little. They will appreciate the advantages, and might be encouraged to eventually buy a better one and appreciate the fine poits of design.Just my 2p,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I need Mike Wenzloff's web site address, please. Thanks in advance...
Googled it and found nothing but articles and forum posts about Mike.
Edited 6/9/2006 12:40 pm ET by charlesstanford
Hi Charles, the website is in my profile I think. Here it is:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html
It was being remade early this year when the person doing it flaked out. I have another company giving me a bid to redo. So all it is currently, really, is a pictoral list of saws and prices.
Take care, Mike
Hi Glaucon,
I pretty much agree with your assessment re new woodworkers. Lessening frustration is a goal of all people interested in furthering the craft.
We all do what we can as regards purchasing. People ask me for recommendations all the time for less expensive options. We do make a kit, which is less costly. But even that is too much sometimes or not in the potential customer's interest. A couple poor choices in vintage saws, though, equal the same cost unless one is patient and gets them cheap.
Early on in woodworking I used some pretty less than ideal saws. Then a number of years ago I bought a wonderful vintage open handled saw. It was like night and day and I grew up filing saws. Since then, I have owned two LN saws, one the DT saw and one the carcass saw, which I actually prefered for small rip cuts. Then I started making saws because I enjoy it, and the rest is sorta history.
Judging form the number of vintage saws which flow through here to be rehabbed, there are a lot of less than ideal saws out there. A vintage saw simply requires a different kind of commitment than a new saw to make into the best it can be. A saw plate really should be as clean and reasonably shiney as possible. For some, that destroys the charm of vintage. It should be well jointed, past any cracks, the saw sharpened and set properly and the back may need reset in order to remove bow along the blade. All can be done by the owner. Just takes time.
Take care, Mikeback to work...
Glaucon
While I'll agree with you that a dozuki saw IS easier to start than probably most, if not all, western saws, I found through personal experience that they don't follow a line as well.
I used a dozuki for probably about 6 years, and when I finally received the two saws from LN, (I love my wife) about 5 years ago, I really notice a huge difference in how well the LN would cut to a line vs. the dozuki. The japanese saw always seemed to want to wander on me. I always thought it was my technique, but with the LN, I have found that not to be the case.
BTW, the dozuki had a new replacement blade in it, so I know it wasn't dull.
Jeff
Your experience is similar to mine, although I have found the rip Dozuki will follow a (DT)line better than a crosscut Dozuki. It still is not quite as faithful as my LN DT saw.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Jeff,I think the reason why you can follow a line better with a "western" saw is that the kerf being wider you are able to constantly adjust the saw to follow the line.
With a Japanese saw you can't do that.C.
My experience with the LN DT saw is not that you can re-adjust it, but rather that, once started, the stiffness of the plate tends to keep the saw moving along the line rather than following the grain. If you don't start out correctly, you will not be able to correct your cut.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Since I have the attention of the experts:
My favorite saw is a E. Jennings & Co. 9 1/2 it is not a back saw, it has an open apple wood handle, the blade is 17" long and 2 1/2" wide, sharpened for crosscut.
Beautiful little saw, perfectly balanced.What was that saw originally designed for ? What is it called ?
I have been trying to find another one for a long time, without success.Thanks in advance for the input.C.
citrouille is right, if you have a wider kerf, you can adjust the cut. I don't think the LN saw is particularly stiffer than other similar saws -- the reason it tends to track straight is that is has a very small set.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
The question (at least as I understand it) is not whether the LN dovetail saw is stiffer than other western saws, but whether it is stiffer than a Dozuki. I have not tried every Dozuki (nor every western saw), but the LN is certainly thicker and stiffer than any Dozuki I have ever used. This to me, means that the saw is less likely than a Dozuki to flex, and has more inertia- it will tend to follow the line rather than the grain, provided that you start it on your mark correctly. The plate of the LN is thicker than a Dozuki, and will cut a wider kerf, but I don't think you can easily adjust your cut, as the kerf has to accomodate the thicker blade. As for the set, the Dozuki has a smaller set than a LN or other western saw- at least the ones that I have used.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
My reply wasn't really on-point. The LN tracks better than most Western saws due to its small set -- its plate is not particularly thick for a Western saw. You're right, its plate is thicker than a dozuki's plate (at least thicker than mine). I've not closely enough examined my dozuki to realize its set was also so minimal.
Thanks :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Glaucon, haha, you equip yourself with flash up market comparatively expensive saws, but trudge on with ordinary planes? (;)Philip Marcou
<<"Glaucon, haha, you equip yourself with flash up market comparatively expensive saws, but trudge on with ordinary planes? (;)">>Clearly, you are unaware of my collection of Norris planes- I don't wonder, they are in my workshop, but hiding behind the Spiers...;^)Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I'm working on a PW article on this subject. Look for it in Nov issue.
I think you should choose a saw that is toothed according to your work. Inevitably, that will be the best saw for you. Pretty sure Adria and Wenz will custom file saws for you- possibly at no extra charge. Not sure about LN.
The point of my article is that you shouldn't choose a saw based on reviews, manufacturers ads, or advice from people like me. You need to know how a saw's teeth effect you. There's a simple science to saws, not unlike planes. For example: You need a long plane to make stuff straight, high bedding angles handle figured woods better, low angles are good for end grain etc.
So my advice is to read that article, and think long and hard about the work you do or want to do. Then you'll be either able to choose a saw off the shelf or ask for a saw that meets your specifications.
Adam
>I'm working on a PW article on this subject. Look for it in Nov issue.<
A- ha! I will be looking for it - I was wondering when you would write more about saws.
For the original poster. I have both the L-N and the Adria, along with about six other dovetail saws, both new and old. Heck, the truth is, they all work well when sharpened and tuned.
Good luck, Ed
I just got my Adria from Hartville Tools after 2 months and I prefer this over any Japanese saw and I have several of them. It is a personal opinion as to what is better but since you asked for input buy ADRIA!
Mike
I personally own the LN dovetail and the crosscut and the rip saws. But the dovetail saw by far is my favorite. I have used the Adria saw and the only real diffrence that I see is that the LN is 1 inch longer than the Adria. Which I feel is a hugh advantage. I have also used Japanese saws, but have found them way to fragile on harder woods. And also they tend to drift and follow the grain easier than your western saws will.
Kaleo Kala
<<"have also used Japanese saws, but have found them way to fragile on harder woods. And also they tend to drift and follow the grain easier than your western saws will.">>That is it, in a nutshell...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
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