What is the different between a dovetail-saw and any other kind of saw. I’m making a set of drawers held together with dovetails and wondered what the difference was.
Do i really need a dovetails saw?????
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Replies
Hi Matt,
In general terms a dovetail saw is a thin kerf'ed saw with the teeth filed for a rip cut. 'Western' dovetail saws cut on the forward stroke, japanese dovetail saws cut on the pull stroke. The key to any of these saws is they need to saw to a straight line, without pulling to the left or right of the cut.
Ok now that we have the definition out of the way, a specialized dovetail saw like a Lie-Nielsen, Adria or a japanese Dozoki will make the task a whole heap easier.
Good luck
Edited 9/8/2006 5:08 pm ET by BOBABEUI
Do i really need a dovetails saw?????
If you are doing fine with the saw you have...no.
Like the other poster mentioned, a small joinery saw typically has a thinner piece of steel, less set for a thinner kerf--which translates to less effort--as well as an open handle. The handle has a slightly higher angle to it than a closed-type of handle.
Of the above, the thinner plate and minimal set are the biggest issues. Not so much so you can cut teensy pins, but to reduce effort, which can help with accuracy.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Your talents are endless. Apparently you make sportscar-shaped saws and in your spare time provide thrill-based antidotes to mid-life crises! If only I had known this when I was 38. Alas, my crises are all over and done with (excepting the Final Crisis, which even a sportcar-saw cannot ameliorate).
Of course I do expect my little saw-set from your magic sawshop, expected any week now, to provide a thrill or three.
Lataxe, a mortal
Thank you for the kind words, Adam.
Hah hah! Lataxe...
Actually, there are a few animals in the future, but alas, no sports cars. Well, perhaps in name only...
We begin Tuesday, ship Friday. I think. I'm winging this response as the boys are not allowing me into the shop today where the schedule is posted. They think I have been working too hard. If they only knew...
So today is a BBQ, a sacrifice of flesh and some beverages to wash it all down.
Take care, Mike
I think from the 10,000 foot level, the difference between a dovetail saw and any other common hand saw is the number of teeth. For thin woods, you need more teeth (that's my opinion anyway).
If you are in a pinch and you are good with a saw, you can use a coarser saw- but its harder generally. I've used a hacksaw before. Sears (or your local hardware store) has hacksaw blades with 18tpi and maybe 14tpi. Either will work pretty well in thin wood and the frame works fine too. But the "just any ole saw" approach gets old pretty quick when you do a lot of it. A nice dovetail saw is like a sports car. You can go to work in a dump truck. It'll get you there. But the sports car goes faster and is a lot more fun. The guy who responded above is the world's nicest ferrari dealer. His name is Mike Wenz. Write it down just in case you happen upon a mid life crisis on your next project and need a thrill!
Adam
Dovetail Saws are a smaller or smallest size saw.................
Then comes a Carcass Saw
Then a Tenon Saw
Edited 9/9/2006 1:23 pm ET by rarebear
Edited 9/9/2006 1:24 pm ET by rarebear
Matt,
Your question is often asked on Knots. I wish there were an easier way to let people know that. You got the answers that are always given.
Actually, there are articles on how to cut dovetails with the table saw, the band saw, and the router. Tage Frid used to use a bow saw. I wish I could have seen that.
Some people worry and fret about which saw is best. My answer is always to say: use any saw that is handy. You'll soon find out what the drawbacks for that saw are, expecially after you use another saw which you find better at cutting dovetails.
I just went down to Woodcraft and bought the Japanese dovetail (dozuki) saw, and it works fine for me. I am sure that if I had bought an English style saw, that would have worked fine too. Dave Pine, who goes by the name of Joinerswork, uses an old Gents Saw.
Focus more on attaining skill than at finding a "magic saw". There is no magic saw. It is true that after cutting 20 dovetail joints, you will feel much more comfortable than after your first.
Part of learning dovetails is learning how to adjust and fix the ones that don't work out so well. There are lots of articles on this in Fine Woodworking and elsewhere. Read Tage Frid's book. If something fits too loose, you can glue a shim in it. If it is too big, you pare it down with a chisel. If there is a small gap, you can use a ball peen hammer to close it up.
To me, the hardest thing about dovetails is just getting started and cutting the first set. After your first set, you find out that it is not brain surgery, and you relax. Cut a bunch more. Then give lessons to other people.
Whatever you do, relax and have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
96,
There's no magic saw?! Oh no!! I was hoping for one a bit like the magic woodrat; and also for a chisel wand.
Incidentally, I know you're quoting an authority (one T. Frid, a known joker) but spreading sloppy DT ends with a hammer is likely to get you an admonition from Mr Marcou, who will make one of his strange Ay-yip-ay noises in dismay. What is wrong with a nice shim, made of scrap from the project; or from some handy veneer you might have (cheap boxfuls can be had from Lee Valley)?
Brain surgery with a DT saw...? Well they cut legs off with something similar. I saw it on telly once, just before I fainted. Why not a brain, if it keeps the costs of the operation down?
Lataxe, having fun.
Focus more on attaining skill than at finding a "magic saw". There is no magic saw. It is true that after cutting 20 dovetail joints, you will feel much more comfortable than after your first.
No magic saw! I pull one out of a stone not too long ago...
I know what your saying if you can not cut to a line with the saw you have, a Lie Nielsen isn't going to help.
However I think a saw must be in good condition, sharp and properly set to be of any use in developing skills. I think when learning it is imprtant not to have to compensate for errors in tools.
Provided that the OP has a suitable saw. My sugegstion to the OP would be to either find someone to sharpen it, find out what a well sharpened and set saw cuts like. Use it. Then when it gets dull learn to sharpen.
For the record I use a LN Carcas rip saw that I received as a gift.
Buster,
Thanks for the reply. Your LN Carcas rip saw sounds great. Even nicer, it came as a gift.I am not so sure that sharpening is as important as it used to be. When my $15 transistor radio breaks, I throw it away and buy another. When I made my choice, I went with the Dozuki that Woodcraft had on sale for $35. It cuts like the wind. Someday it will get dull. It is too difficult to sharpen the Japanese saws, but I can get a replacement blade for about $25. Why sharpen? I don't have experience with the English type dovetail saws but almost everyone I have heard from say that is is a bit more difficult to learn to control than the Dozukis. There was a guy in the Woodcraft store when I bought my Dozuki whose father had given him a LN dovetail saw, and he said he bought a dozuki and just keeps the LN because it was from his dad.Since I bought mine and tried it, and it worked fine, I just haven't tried anything else. I am anxious to try one of the English saws just to see. My guess is that with a little getting used to, it would be just as good as the dozuki. The GREAT thing about LN tools is that you can sell them anytime you want for 80% of what you paid, on Ebay. Great conversation. Thanks for the reply. I think that with most tools, it is just what you get used to.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You can cut good tails with either a western or a Japanese saw.For both, sharpening IS important. For some dozukis, the blades are disposable, other dozukis and all western saws can and should be sharp. Trying to cut a DT with a dull saw is likely trying to carve a rib roast with a spoon.My own experience: starting out, it was easier to start a DT with a dozuki because of the thin kerf and the cut on the pull stroke. After some practice, though, I find that the western saws do have an advantage. If you 1. use a western saw that is properly cut, set and sharpened, and 2. you start your DT properly, then the saw tends to follow the line quite well. Others may have different views.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
Thank you very much. I believe what you say is true. That's why, in my last message, I said that I am looking fowrard to trying an English style saw. I didn't say that I wanted to try one that is sharp, but that is what I meant.I am not a middle of the roader, but I do believe that there are many different ways of doing just about anything well. I have always tried to have one Mac and one PC so that I keep up with the differences between them. Sooner or later, I will get a good saw such as the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw, and then I want to learn how to sharpen them well. When I started dovetailing, I wanted to keep it simple. There seemed to be so much to learn. I figured that a dozuki with a disposable blade was a good way to start. I went home and made three drawers the first week, and all of them worked out well. Essentially I did to much studying, planning, figuring, and worrying. I should have just picked up a gents saw six months earlier and started cutting. :-)One of my many goals in life is to make dovetails with a bowsaw, just like Tage!!!! Why do that? Why not?Thanks for the message.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
rob cosman has a nice dvd that walks you thru the dovetailing process. he uses a LN saw and after watching the video it seems like the only choice. i agree with other posters that it's whatever you get practiced with is a good saw for you. i did buy the LN and have cut some very nice dovetails with it. i've also watched tage frid's video and seen him use a bow saw to cut them. that works for him and is interesting to watch. unfortunately for those of us that are used to buying power tools to solve the latest woodworking emergency, the only thing that will improve your dovetailing is too cut dovetails. cut some, examine them, perhaps number and date them, then cut them off use the same wood and cut more until the wood is too short to continue. it's tedious, but satisfying when you've finally cut a good set.
good luck,
greg
Greg,
Thank you very much. I have heard of Rob's video, but haven't seen it yet. I'll try to view it.I am cutting pretty good through dovetails by hand with my dozuki. My next challenge is half-blind dovetails by hand. Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
I have a few of both dozukis and Western dovetail saws. The Western saw is the weapon of choice in hardwood. My dozukis (as are most unless specified otherwise) are designed for softwood. Their teeth are more vulnerable to breakage in hardwood.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
The nice thing about buying a tool at Woodcraft is that if you don't like it, you just take it back. They say that you can do that up to a year after purchase. If my dozuki dulls too quickly or breaks teeth in the next six months, they will get it back. I have used it to cut dovetails in curley maple with no trouble. It cuts quickly and straight. So far it has not dulled. Please understand that I am not contradicting you. Based on your experience, I would guessthat I will soon learn from experience the conclusion that you have already come to. It may just take a larger number of dovetails in hardwood than I have done to date. I remember your saying to someone else that the Western style saws are better for hardwood. The only problem is that I read those words after buying the dozuki (which I did before discovering Knots. I am working hard at trying not to buy one of each kind of tool in the same year. I am pushing my luck this year. My guess is, however, that I will end up with both a dozuki and a Western saw. With time and practice, I will master both, and learn the strengths and weaknesses of each, and how to treat each for best results. If I manage to limit my number of tool purchases this year, I may be lucky enough to remain married to my lovely wife.Again, thank you for your advice.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619,
I took about three swipes with my dozuki on some 1/4" hard board and about 50% of the teeth were removed from the blade. It's a great little saw, I just hate surprises like that.
BG,
sorry to hear your dozuki lost half its teeth in trying to cut some hardboard. I have seen much Japanese furniture that is absolutely beautiful, and looks flawless to me. Do they only work in softwoods? Does each of the Japanese woodworkers secretly keep an Adria or a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw for use in cutting hardwood when others aren't looking?I am serious. Does anyone out there know what Japanese woodworkers use to cut hardwood? This is very interesting.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619,
I think I've read that the Japanesse woodworker uses many single purpose tools. I'm sure your aware of this website..and all the different saws...http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13087Just to be clear, I have not tried to cut 1/4" hard board with my LN dovetail saw...perhaps the teeth of the LN would be damaged too...
BG,
Thanks for the reply. I wrote to the folks at the website you gave me and asked their opinion on how Dozuki saws work in hardwoods, and if there is another type of saw they would recommend for use with hardwoods. I'll let you know what they respond with. We may get to the bottom of this soon.Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
From what I understand, the Odate Japanese saws that Tools for Working Wood sells will handle hardwood on a regular basis. I have used one in Oak a couple times and it worked well--and no broken teeth.
On any saw Japan Wood Worker or the other retail outlets have which is made for hardwoods, one key is to never force the saw. Even the more expensive non-induction hardened teeth saws can end up with bent teeth if the saw is forced.
If you get a spendy one that has sharpenable teeth, they are a joy to use. From what I understand, Mark Grable is the man to have one sharpened by [which goes beyond mere sharening].
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Thank you for the info. I will keep Mark Grable's name as an excellent saw sharpener-tuner. I agree on not forcing the saw. Actually, except for the occassional use of a "persuader", few things in woodworking should be forced. My dozuki does well in maple with gentle pressure -- eg letting the saw do the work. What I don't know is how my dozuki will perform with a lot more wear. However, even if it does dull after a reasonable amount of use, the replacemant blade is only about $25, as I rememeber. Obviously some very good woodworkers have had some negative experiences with Dozukis on hardwood. I have not had such troubles. To learn more, I have written to The Japan Woodworker website and asked the question. They have already responded that they have passed my question to their expert Japanese woodworker, and they expect he will get back to me on Monday. I will post his response for all of the Knots denizens to see. After we learn the "truth" about Dozukis and hardwood, I am anxious to learn more about the use of a bow saw, like Tage Frid used. Unfortunately there are a lot of tools that I would like to buy. All I lack is the money. However, sooner or later, I would like to master the bow-saw, just because it looks like such a challenge. Finally, Ray Pine uses an cheap gent's saw for dovetailing, and he's a professional!!!. He said that he wore one out and had to buy a second one. Heck, if you can cut dovetails in hard and softwoods with a disposable $15 saw, one has to wonder why anyone would pay well over $50 for a Dozuki or well over $100 for a Western saw. This is quite interesting.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Heck, if you can cut dovetails in hard and softwoods with a disposable $15 saw, one has to wonder why anyone would pay well over $50 for a Dozuki or well over $100 for a Western saw.
Hi Mel
This is what separates the pros from the hobbiests.
(As I have said on other occasions), in my day job which, in part, involves a fair amount of neuropsychological assessment, I get by with the tools I am used to using and, while I read all the new catalogues with their "revised" and "improved" tests, these just tend to get binned. Knowledge, my 25 years of experience and technique go a long, long way.
I have a cheapish Crown gent saw, and this is excellent for cutting dovetails. All I had to do was remove a little set off one side and that completed the tuning needed. But it only gets used for delicate cuts in hardwood since I find that a straight handle is better suited (for myself) to pulling rather than pushing.
I also have a $10 vintage 8" John Cotterill dovetail saw that I sharpened (15 tpi rip) and set myself. It cuts as well as my LN and IT saws. But it is not very pretty, and I have a lot more fun and pleasure from the nicer looking tools.
Of course I think that most pros would scoff at my fussiness. Its Sunday morning and one of the things I want to finish building today is a new cutting/marking gauge. Why am I bothering - I have a few I bought, and these work perfectly well?
Regards from Perth
Derek
(more than you probably want to know but here goes)
If you have a bandsaw or a router table with a fence that can be set fairly precisely, like the JoinTech or Incra fence systems, the answer is NO, you dn't need a special saw to cut dovetails.
On a bandsaw, cutting the sides of the tails and then using it to nibble out the bottom of the socket for the pins to get close is straight foreward. Cutting the pins on a bandsaw is a little trickier because you have to angle the board the 6 to 14 degrees. There are angled fiixtures you can make to hold the stock at the correct angle but just using a shim under the board will work. Here's more on that.
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/BandsawPinsTrick.html
You still have to do some chisel work to get the bottom of the sockets cleaned up but most of the work can be done with the bandsaw - and some practice.
As noted by others, you can cut wood with any type of saw - how precisely and with what quality of cut - well that's where dovetail saws for cutting dovetails justifies getting another saw.
In the dovetail saw there are "push to cut" saws ("western") and "pull to cut" saws ("japanese"). On the "western" type saws, you'll usually find a "spine" on the top of the blade to reduce the thinner blade from wanting to flex as the wood resists the teeth and you're pushing on the other end. On a "japanese" pull saw, there is no "spine" - for good reason - on the pull stroke - the blade is in tension. Then there's the old maxim - "It's easier to pull a string than to push it." And the blade is even thinner than on western dovetail saws - so it cuts easier. Note that I did not saw it cuts faster - japanese saws typically cut slower than a western saw.
On western dovetail saws there are two basic handle types - a shaped barrel grip and an angled open end "pistol grip". There's also and "offset handle" version of the barrel grip - not good for dovetail cutting - your pushing isn't in line with the blade - a problem when cutting dovetails. While the barrel grip will work - it takes a bit more skill to control it well. The open end pistol grip almost forces you to hold it correctly and gives better control of the saw - important for cutting dovetails. That also limits how you hold the saw's handle as well as the angle of the blade to wood.
The japanese saws have a long oval shaped handle - the long axis in line with the blade's height. the oval, rather than round. grip helps "register" your grip to the blade. They come with and without a "spine" on the top of the blade. Their dozuki saws have a spine. The long oval handle provides for a lot of gripping positions which let you cut both horizontally, vertically and everything in between - something pistol grip handles don't allow such flexibility.
With either western or japanese saws, and regardless of the handle type, it's the start of the cut that'll make or break you. So let me get into that critical operation first.
You normally begin the cut at the back of the board - on the edge where the face and the end meet, as opposed to flat on the end of the board - handle higher and the blade angled down a little. The ASCII diagram below exagerates (sp?) the angle but illustrates the point.
saw blade
/
/----------+
/ |
/| wood |
| |
As you can see, hopefully, you start the cut essentially cutting thin wood - the edge of a corner. The greater the distance between adjacent teeth, the more chatter/bouncing the cut will be - the teeth saying "I'm cutting the wood, I'm not cutting the wood, I'm cutting the wood, ..." as the cutting point of the teeth conact and then pass the wood. To think of it another way lets use driving on a road. You'll really notice the speed bumps in parking lots. Your'e tooling along on a flat smooth asphalt surface - and then a speed bump - boing. More smooth ride and then another boing. Now lets think of the chatter strips they put in highways to alert you to something you need to be aware of. Smooth quiet ride - and then brrrrup, brrrup, brrrrrrrup - the sound and the ride change noticably - as intended. Now think of the close together grooves they sometimes grind in concrete roadways to reduce hydroplaning in heavy rains. You may here a change in the sound and perhaps even feel a cnange in the surface - but it doesn't grab your attention. If the grooves are close enough you won't hear or feel them at all. For skiiers (sp?) - thing of moguls versus long rolling runs, or flat groomed runs.
Back to cutting and teeth spacing.
Ideally, you'd like at least two, prefereably three, teeth points contacting the wood to reduce the chatter. So the more teeth per inch (actually Tips per Inch), the less chatter and therefore the more control you have cutting. But too many teeth means slower cutting so there's a trade off. But more tips per inch also means the cut is less likely to follow the path or least resistance - so it's less likely to follow the grain - you are cutting "with the grain" / ripping.
In addition to typically having more "points per inch" than a western saw, japanese saw teeth have several more bevels creating more cutting edges, one that makes very light cuts as the saw is pushed foreward in preparation for the next cutting pull stroke. Western saws rub but don't cut on the return stroke.
Now on a western saw, everything is set up to macho it - plenty of grip on the handle, with a nice long lever arm for twisting and bending the blade, lots of surface area at the palm of your hand to really push hard against - and a nice big beefy "spine" - in bent over steel or thicker shiny brass to deliver all that force to the wood - with GUSTO! Exactly what you don't want to do when making precise saw cuts.
The japanese pull saw won't let you do any of that. The grip and the pull cut doesn't let you macho it. The blade will flex and bend and let you know to lighten up!
Now with a western push saw, you have to apply extra force at the very beginning of the cut so the first cut is quick - and deep. If the location or angle or both are wrong - well you're sort of SOL - your commited already. But with a japanese pull saw, with the finer teeth, thinner kerf and a hangle that doesn't lend itself to brute force, the critical beginnin of the cut is more delicate and more controlled. It lets you adjust things - just a little - before continuing with the cut.
Now for a subtle one - where the sawdust comes out. On a push saw the sawdust is pushed out the back of the cut. But on a pull saw it's pulled out to the front of the cut. No big deal - until you get to sawing "to the line". Then it's "pull, blow the sawdust out of the way, return stroke and pull again".
I've got
a Disston "68" barrel grip dovetail saw
a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw
a PAX dovetail saw
a regular japanese dozuki saw
a Toshio Odate japanese dovetail dozuki saw
They all have sharp teeth with proper tooth set and I can cut to "take the line", "split the line" or "leave the line" after practicing a little.
But for me, the regular japanese dozuki is what I reach for the most, the Odate dozuki if I want a really nice tight set of dovetails and the LN or PAX if I want a fair cut in a hurry.
And since you're making a drawer, this might be of interest to you - based on Frank Klausz's tape "Making a handcut dovetailed drawer".
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DovetailDrawer0.html
Each "page" is an image file you can download, print at your leisure, take out to the shop and do what you see on each page. When you get to the end you'll have an adequate dovetail joined drawer. May not be really pretty but it will hold together without glue.
Late to this party but I hope this helps.
charlie b
Geez, Matt.
If you really want to dovetail that whatever you're working on, think about buying a jig... they still make dovetail saws and people use these things for a reason. If you never cut these things by hand, you may spend a spend a fortune killing a pile of lumber, but you won't ask another question like this again, and you won't need to buy a jig either. Scope your projects to your skills and invest the time to develop your craftsmanship. Otherwise, you'll find yourself with a basement full of time-saving junk you'll never use.
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