I’m commited to learning to make a good dovetail joint by hand. At the moment I have a cheap Japanese pull style saw I got from Home Depot. I’d like to upgrade to a good dovetail saw. I only want to buy one saw for dovetails. I’m getting a little tired of buying tools, discovering they are junk and having to buy another one so I’d prefer to buy just one good dovetail saw. Which to choose?
Someone suggested a Toshio Odate dovetail saw that you can get from Highland.
Others suggest a Lie-Neilsen saw. Although it is not clear which Lie-Neilsen saw. The 15 tpi straight handed saw or the pistol grip saw.
Or is something else a better choice?
Oh, it wouldn’t hurt if the saw was also good at cutting tenons as well.
Replies
The saw you use is a matter of preference as much as anything. Some like the western style such as the LN, others prefer the Japanese. A few of points:
1. I wouldn't buy a saw at HD or another big box. You just won't find the quality or selection. Most of the saws and chisels there are not really good enough for WW, let alone dovetails. It's not snoberry, it's just that they are targetting a different market segment.
2. Cutting dovetails is a ripping operation (you are cutting down into the endgrain), cutting tenons is a crosscutting operation. You will get better results if you use the appropriate saw for each.
3. If you get a western saw, get one with an open pistol grip, like the LN. The pistol grip allows you to better orient the saw than the turned handle you find on a gent's saw; the open grip allows your hand to fit better (especially if you have large hands). The LN is expensive (~$125), but users say it is well sharpened and made. A big problem with many less expensive western saws is that they are not properly sharpened "out of the box" and sharpening saws is a task that I find tedious. Another option is to get a decent second hand saw and have it sharpened professionally. If you don't have the teeth properly sharpened and set, you might as well use flint tools.
4. I prefer the Japanese dozuki rip saw (~$70 at LV). I find it easier to guide and I like the cut for dovetails over the standard dozuki.
My own experience is that it is better to buy a good tool once and have it forever than to cheap out and have to upgrade later. For me the two most important steps in dovetailing are marking/layout and the sawing. Layout tools are inexpensive, the chisels don't have to be high end either, especially if you are doing through dovetails. My advice is to put the $$ into the saw, it's the key operation where a more expensive tool can make the difference.
Just my 2p,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I agree with every word Glaucon said. Why buy a cheap, inaccurate tool which guarantees only one thing.....frustration! HD and other such retailers are not in the fine tool business.
Baldmountain,
We're in the same club, although I've built furniture for many years, and I've cut dovetails by hand, I've always depended more on my router jigs. The dovetails that I've cut by hand look pretty good but it's taken me a long time to do, and I feel that there's something I'm missing from the process.
If you go to the Lie-Nielsen website there's a four video series by Rob Cosman that you can get for $75.00. Mine's still in the mail, but I'm the kind of person that learns better from seeing someone do it then reading about the process. The video series also covers many other hand tool and sharpening topics that I'm sure I can gain something from seeing.
You may want to think about doing something similar to get a jump on the learning curve.
Good Luck,
Brian
after many years using japanese saws for handcut dovetails and never really being satisfied - i bought the l-n saw. with just a little practice things got a lot better. it was worth the $$$.jerry
Jerry,
I have several LN planes but I haven't taken the dive for the saws yet. If you were to get just two of them, specifically, which two would you buy for general all round dovetailing / joinery work??
I also really like their chisel set, I have several old german chisels that I enjoy that have the same style handle and socket. They feel good in your hands and are very well balanced. This will be the next purchase after I take the dive for the saws.
Thanks,
Brian
brian,
i only have the 1 saw -- the 15ppi rip back saw - it's really stout and once the cut is started the saw just takes over -
again - for me it was worth the investment - i think it was $110 at a show.jerry
Yeah, I'm considering the Rob Cosman DVDs myself. The only reason I haven't ordered them already is I'm being cheap. I have a limited budget and need to carefully choose how I spend my money. I think the set would get me past a lot of the silly mistakes I've been making. It would also show me the right way, rather than what I think is the right way.Sounds like the Lie-Neilsen saw is the way to go. I just need to blow the dust off my wallet and cough up the money.
Baldy,
I didn't really think that the $75.00 was expensive when I thought about what other posters have said. Ruining expensive wood and time translates into cash anyway you look at it, so I wanted to do this as a first step before I buy the tools.
I don't have dust on my wallet, but it squeeks like a rusty door hinge when I open her up. LOL
Good Luck,
Brian
I posted this site to another forum as well, but you might want to look here for a VHS version of the Cosman demonstrations. They are moving away from VHS and going to stock only DVD so they are having a sale. (I have no affilation, etc)
Tom
http://www.robcosman.ca/Videos_DVDs.htm#hcdt
Tom,Unfortunately, the last of our machines to play tapes just died and I'm not likely to replace it. I prefer DVDs anyways.Brian,I think you are right. At this point education is more important than anything else. I'll order the DVDs...I attached a picture of my latest attempt from last night. The interesting thing is the joint fits together with the tail board facing either way. I may have been trimming the joint with the tail board facing both ways which is why the joint is a little loose. (It's actually a little tighter with the tail board facing the wrong way.)
bald,
Two quick suggestions: 1. Don't forget the library...great source, especially because many of these books get used as reference material, and, 2. plane that joint...see what happens.
Attached is a list of recommended books from several folks here...
Baldy,
I think that's a good choice for you, after you and I have a good look at these videos we should post some reviews, Siskel and Ebert style.
You've done a great attempt on this dovetail, the two things that I see are that you have fallen out of square along the length of the joint, creating gaps (wait till ya get the good saw!!) and your center pin should be smaller to give a little more elegance to the joint.
I'm sure we'll both be posting pictures of hand dovetailed blanketchests real soon.
Cheers,
Brian
Hey, you're getting there! Be sure to make your cuts on the waste side of the line; and, don't be afraid to clean up with a chisel after the joint is cut. Chris Becksvoort suggests--and this works VERY well--that you rub a pencil on the insides of the tails and see where they rub on the pins, then trim the pins to fit perfectly; but he cuts tails first. If you cut the pins first, you'd want to trim the tails to fit. You're going to have it real soon, though; it's right around the corner.CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
Edited 8/19/2005 2:36 pm ET by CharlieD
Thanks!I have been cleaning up with a chisel. For this joint I didn't use a coping saw at all. I cleaned out the waste using only a chisel. By the time I got to cleaning up the joint fit I was kid of tired. (This woodworking stuff is WORK! I'm going to have HUGE arms and shoulders when I'm done.) Being tired I rushed a bit and things opened up. I need to learn to take a rest and come back to finishing joints when I'm fresh.I figured out the cut on the waste side of the line on my own. I didn't know about the pencil tip. That's a good one.Brian,Good idea about the videos. Let everyone else know how good they are. I ordered the full set from L-N.Yeah, I did go out of line. I think that is more because of trying to clean the joint up with a chisel when tired. I definitely don't have my saw technique down yet. The August FWW has some exercises to help refine hand tool technique. I think I'll give them a try.All these joints are practice. They will end up in the fireplace this winter.Thanks again everyone!
Edited 8/19/2005 2:51 pm ET by baldmountain
Save the joints! You'll enjoy seeing your progress down the line. Also, I never use a coping saw, slower and pointless in my book. I cut a very fine notch into the scribe line to make a registration point for my chisel that doesn't cause a dent where the joint closes, then I chop through the first side, down about halfway, but without taking the waste all the way out to the end (kinda hard to decribe); then I flip the wood over and do the other side the same way, but I chop down and in--same as the other side--and split the waste out from the end grain. Using this method prevents a big chunk from tearing out of the joint's bottom as the last of the waste is removed. It's basically C Becksvoort's technique, except that I came up with my own way of starting the waste removal because I was buggering the baseline almost every time. If you slam a chisel into the baseline, it crushes fibers and the joint won't close as cleanly as I like.Anyway, that's what works for me. CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
Three down, 994 left to go...
:^)
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Rob Cosman was at Montanafest and demonstrated cutting dovetails. Now I'm sure that the number of dovetails that he has cut makes a great deal of difference, but he used a LN saw and chisels. The dovetails fit and were glued the first time, no test fitting.
I don't have them yet, but I fully intend to purchase the videos and the saw.
baldmountain
I have the Lie Nielsen saw ( I have both, but you'll want the rip for dovetailing) and it is superior for cutting dovetails over the dozuki (which I replaced) in my opinion. With a little practice cutting straight, you'll have terrific success.
I had the chance to meet Rob Cosman in person this weekend, as he was at MontanaFest. He did a 1 1/2 hour mini seminar on hand cut dovetails. Not a bad guy to emulate, as his technique and results are near flawless. In my opinion, you can't avoid spending money on books and dvd's if they will improve your work, as well as your speed. $75 is less than the money wasted on expensive stock ruined by screwing up a set of drawers that were dovetailed shoddily.
Just my .02.
Jeff
bald,
Here's a post I threw up a couple of years ago on the topic - I think it covers a few points not shown so far.
As far as a good how-to, try this website:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/fea12.html
its basically a copy of how we were trained in trade, except if we overshot the lines we'd have been in trouble.
Cheers,
eddie
Eddie,I think I'm beginning to agree with you. I think that technique may be more important than having an expensive saw. I cut another dovetail this morning. I was very careful sawing and found that the parts of the joint that fit well were the ones that were sawn (sawed?) the best. I'd say you, other who make beautiful dovetails, have good saw technique. Those of use who make crummy joints, don't.I found a good article on dovetail saws and cutting dovetails here:http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/news/index.php?cat=3(The author preferes European style dovetail saws over the Japanese saws. I think I agree with him too; for the same reasons.) The link also has some good information on scrappers too.I also found Adria tools:http://www.adriatools.com/index.htmlThe above article, and a few others, say that Adria makes a good dovetail saw. (I don't suppose that Eddie Sirotich, who makes those saws, is you? ANbody know how the Adria compares to a Lie-Neilsen?)On a side note; my son loves playing with my finished, but not glued, dovetail joints. He thinks they are puzzles. :)
I agree- the sawing (and layout) are the crucial steps. A good saw (western or Japanese) makes it easier, more and enjoyable to cut DTs, also more consistent. Having said that, skilled WWrs can cut good DTs with cheap saws... but why would they want to?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I'm glad you found Adria tools, and I have no affiliation with them whatsoever, I just have been recommended them by woodworkers that I admire and respect. as for the preference thing (western or japanese), I have a dozuki, but find that my hand "cramps up" after a few dovetails and I find a western saw more comfortable for me, thereby easier to control, for me. Thanks.
I agree with your post with the exception that I find chiseling to be equally critical; if I don't get the waste removal just right, i bugger the joint at the bottom, and it won't close precisely. I also find stock prep to be crucial; if the stock isn't dead flat and perfectly square at the ends, joints will have gaps at the bottoms. These may seem like givens, but for a beginner, perhaps not.CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
Funny- I've always managed the chiseling fairly well- it's kind of therapeutic (one reason I don't cope out the waste). I was taught from the beginning to carefully approach the layout line (just like when chiseling a mortise for hinges) and to undermine the joint- both things that have been worthwhile. With sawing, you either hit the line or you don't- and when you miss there's little to do. I'd say that the key in good chiseling is using the right size (beginners usually go too big) and making sure the chisel is very sharp.
Stock preparation is key I agree...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You wrote: ANbody know how the Adria compares to a Lie-Neilsen?)
I have both and, though the L.N. is a fabulous saw, I believe that the Adria is a better cutting saw (it is more agressive i.e., quicker cutting, but, of course, is harder to start i.e., the leading edge of the tooth is perpendicular(sp?) whereas I don't think the L.N. is).
I have to say that I have never seen a saw leave a better surface than Bridge City Tools JS-1; it looks as though it has been cleaned up with a plane. It has an incredibly thin kerf ... I think it is around .011" (?). It cuts much slower, however, than the L.N. or the Adria.
FWIW- I bought a ($ 9.00?) POS Stanley dovetail saw to practice sharpening on, and it is easily the equal to either the L.N. or the Adria in terms of cutting speed (it actually leaves a finer surface than either of the saws). To insure that it cuts accurately- I made sure that it has no more than a .003" set on either side of the blade. I am sure that it will go dull much faster and, given that it has a straight handle, I would think that it is harder to control, but I think it shows that many saws, if you "fettle" it (not sure that terms applies to saws, or just planes), will cut wonderfully.
-Peter T.
Hi Bald,
I'm not Eddie Sirotech - but wish I was at times. Yes, he does make a good saw (I know our local importer.)
Best of luck,
eddie
BM,
I cut these with a dozuki saw that I got from Rockler. I think it cost around $45, and it had all japanese writing on it, so it must ge good! ;) Layout is the most important think, followed with being able to cut to the line. On an earlier project, I cut 12 fully dovetailed drawers with a total of 256 tails...after the first 4 drawers, I didn't even have to fine tune the fit, they fit very nicly.
-kevin
Kevin,
nice job! I didn't see a scribe line for the shallower pins?!? ANYWAYS, I'm amazed that now one has brought up the point of other western saws.......LN isn't the only good saw on the market....personally I've used an LN, (one purchased by Frank Klausz, for a then employee and freind of mine) and loved it, but I've heard great news about the Aria saws as well, and They come with a 100% money back 1 year warranty....try getting that with the LN. I also used a PAX that was professionally set and sharpened that I thought was great as well. for me personally, although I want an adria, I was just given an old Disston that I'm going to have professionally set and sharpened, that I think will give me a lifetime of use. My Point: There are other western saw options...Thank you
I have tried cutting dovetails with a western saw that was tuned up real nice, but I prefer the controlability of the japanese saws. Also, the kerf is MUCH narrower with the japanese saws, and the're ready to cut right out of the box. When they get dull, you just replace the blade and you're ready to cut again. I think that the replacement blade is around 15-20 bucks; my blade is still very sharp after cutting close to 275 dovetails in both hard maple and cherry. The one thing that I had to get used to is that once you get the saw cutting, you'd better be on your line; there's very little you can do to change course in the middle of the cut.
happy sawing...
-kevin
LN isn't the only good saw on the market??
NOT knockin' LN BUT ANY saw sharpened and set propelly will cut a straight line! Well, sept' for when the the user gets involved!
I took the basic handtools class from Rob in Canada just in July 2005. He's a great guy, outstanding teacher, and you will be better at the end.I tried and tried and tried to use my LV dovetail saw. Although I could cut to a line, the cut is ragged. Photo attached.I bought the LN at the class and my dovetails took a giant leap forward. The LN is also FASTER than the Japanese saw, and really evident in hardwoods. Also it's not so dainty as you have to be super carefull with it.Since I was in the class and retained a great deal, the videos are a refresher for me. Rob mentioned he has some new videos coming out this fall, Alan Peters, and another woodworker I forget.With a top of the line saw, and I got to use the prototype LN rip and cross cut western saws.. WOW WOW WOW You KNOW any problems are yours. :)
So, what did you do with the saw?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
If you haven't yet, you should consider a handtool woodworking course. Especially one like Homestead Heritage in Waco.
Paul Sellers, who writes many articles for Woodwork Magazine, teaches that excellent dovetails can be made with a $15 Crown saw once it is properly sharpened. He teaches sharpening in the introductory 1-day course.
You can buy the saw AND take the class for less than a new L/N Dovetail saw costs.
After a class or two, you will be in a much better position to judge which tools to best spend your limited budget on.
Regards,
Dan
At the moment I have a cheap Japanese pull style saw I got from Home Depot. I'd like to upgrade to a good dovetail saw..
Just a thought.. Rub you finger along eack side of the say teeth.. (without drawing blood).. Is the set the sme on both sides?? If not the saw in a BUMMER!
I have some Japanese Saws.. In fact several.. Some cheep. and some expensive.. I think the cheep ones about as good..
Just take some scrap and use ANY SAW you have.. Draw a line on the wood.. Try to cut a 'straight line' that follows the line.. WITHOUT going over the penciled marks.. If you can you are 99% there.. Sharp chisel finish it off..
Hi Baldy (Hope that's OK- no offense),
The day I purchased my $35 Mini-Dozuki saw from Woodcraft was the day I started making dovetails respectable enough to use in my furniture. I think a big part of the reason is that the kerf's so thin I can pretty much cut on or very close to the line. Also, as was mentioned before, the blade's replaceable, so if you bend it or just dull the teeth, for 11 bucks you get the equivalent of a brand new saw. Although some of this may have been said before, here's my experience with respect to sawing a great joint or blowing the whole thing:
I hope these comments were helpful and not too rudimentary for you - your joint doesn't look half bad...
Best regards,
Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Just this one at the moment, when I put the carcase together will so some more. The other 9 I cut on my toolbox to take to the class I broke all of them trying to get them to fit as I cut them with the wrong grain orientation.
Hi,
I've used a Tyzack-Turner saw that I bought when I was in college (20 years ago) and it works fine. It came with a crosscut tooth pattern that I changed to rip. I have always wanted an open handled saw so I just bought the L-N dovetail saw, special ordered from their website with a rosewood handle, so it is not in stock but should ship tomorrow...Yay!
I'll let you know what I think of it after I've taken her for a spin.
Best Regards,
DavidC
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