Anyone know of a good book on dovetailing? I want to dovetail the apron on the workbench I am building, and haven’t done dovetails before. I have a whole pile of scrap just begging to be practised on.
Tony
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Replies
Ian Kirby wrote one that is pretty good. I don't recall the exact title, however.
The exact title of Ian Kirby's book is, "The Complete Dovetail: Handmade Furniture's Signature Joint". ISBN: 0941936678 I've got it, good book, lot of good pointers.
Edited 5/19/2005 3:48 am ET by pqken
"Dovetail the apron on a workbench...."
I can't bring that picture into focus!
John in Texas
Tailsorpins,
Probably has Breadboard ends on the top that he wants to dovetail into the front and back apron...very cool looking.
Ian's book is great...think it's 'The Complete Dovetail'. Last year there was a video clip on here featuring Phil Lowe...also fantastic. Ian focuses on the process steps, Phil adds a lot with proper body position and form.
BG's got it. I have the "Workbench" book by Lon Schleining, and the "modern" bench plan in it has the end vice's inner jaw, which is breadboarded to the end of the bench, tied into the front and back apron with half-blind dovetails. This yields a smooth, uniform surface on the face of the vice. It also looks fantastic.
Because the dovetails will be so large, I will be cutting them by hand. I was told that half-blinds are the hardest to cut by hand and that I sould make it a "false" half blind by starting with an end piece thinner than the final thickness by 3/8", cutting through dovetails, and then gluing a 3/8" face piece to the outside of the whole assembly.
Thoughts?
Edited 5/19/2005 9:34 am ET by woodhoarder
Woodhoarder,
While they can be a bit harder, I believe, they are more forgiving too. I mean, you or anyone else will only see the face of the joint...and that is where the accuracy need to be placed. Fixing a mistake is fairly easy too.
The real challange will be the accuracy of the layout (ie. length of apron boards....especially if your incorporating the apron/breadboard in the vises..give yourself some wiggle room...and remember, when it's all said and done..and your sweating over a hunk of maple your trying to flatten...the damn dovetail on the workbench will be a lot less important...lol
"I was told that half-blinds are the hardest to cut by hand"
Not really I'd say woodhoarder. Lap dovetails (aka half blind in the US) are pretty commonplace as they are used frequently in classically cut hand dovetailed drawers. In your example the scale can be a bit intimidating, but the technique is essentially the same whether on a small or large scale.
More difficult than this type, in order of difficulty, is probably the secret lap dovetail, the secret double lap dovetail, and the secret mitre dovetail all quite commonly chosen in the past for very high quality carcase work.
Ranked above these examples for degree of difficulty must come the double twisted dovetail which mechanically locks a right angle joint in both directions simultaneously.
Still, when it comes to developing competence in any skill (such as dovetailing) some good instruction helps a lot followed by the three P's, i.e.. Practice, Practice, and er,-- Practice, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
What are your thoughts about the "false" half blind I described in my earlier post?
Tony
That technique is even easier than the lap or half blind dovetail, woodhoarder, for what you describe is the common or garden basic through dovetail with an extra thickness of wood added to the thickness of the pinned member to cover the end of the tails coming through. Slainte.RJFurniture
would there be any reason not to do it that way? Would a real half blind be better for this type of application?
Thanks
Tony
No reason at all that I can think of why you shouldn't do the job that way, woodhoarder,---- except that now you have to join two wide faces of wood together neatly which might add to the overall time involved in doing the job, and the potential for mis-matched grain appearance etc., is there---- but you might be looking for a mis-match of some sort..
I'd say in general that it could be better in some circumstances to practice the lap dovetailing technique until it becomes second nature, but chasing the dream of perfect joinery ability may also be counter-productive.
Do whatever is necessary to get the end result you're after. Slainte.RJFurniture
There's another "p""Piles of scrap":-)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
View Image
RJ.. I tried that secret mitre dovetail .. DANG! I threw my work away! LOL
Gee folks can REALLY do that?
Yes, folks really can cut that secret mitred dovetail, WG. It just takes a bit of patience, care setting out and some developed skill.
Here's a link to where you'll find a description of the execution of the even harder double twisted dovetail just for your fun, ha, ha. Slainte.
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=furniture&file=articles_442.shtmlRJFurniture
Sgian,Thanks for pics. Impressive joint - and yes it too had me scratching my head until I went through the write up.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
View Image
Yes, folks really can cut that secret mitred dovetail, WG. It just takes a bit of patience, care setting out and some developed skill.
Leaves me out fer sure!
RJ,
I was taught to always remember the 7 Ps:
Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Pi$$-Poor
Performance
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Buy the basic dovetailing video by Rob Cosman available at Lie-Nielsen website. I think it is much easier to learn when you watch someone as opposed to reading it. Peter
I know you said a book, but some things are better seen than read. I suggest Frank Klausz's video, "Dovetail a Drawer." At first viewing, you'll just be dazzled by his skill, but he breaks the process down into a methodical sequence that the average woodworker can practice and learn.
I have both the Rob Cosman video on dovetailing and the Lee Valley dovetail guide and saw. While the Cosman video is very good, for those of us who only make a dovetail piece once or twice a year, the Lee Valley saw and jig is a lifesaver. The first time I tried it I was thrilled at how well the sawn face of the pins mated to the sawn faces of the tails.
The chiseled out faces left a bit to be desired at first, but after three practice joints I was able to make furniture grade dovetail joints with relative ease.
One thing the Cosman video shows that realy helped are (a) bevel the tails just a skosh on the inside with a chisel so that when you tap the tails into the pins the bevel gets the pins started with a nice wedging action, and (b) never dry fit the two pieces. Just apply glue as a lubricant and go for it. The first time a dovetail is fit up is always the best time.
Chris
I agree. I have always been a visual learner. I asked my wife for the Rob Cosman 4 video set for father's day. ;-) Tony
Tony,
Over the years, Taunton has provided repeated and comprehensive articles on dovetailing (as well as every other joinery technique commonly used).
Here is a pretty comprehensive collection of Taunton publications:
"FineWoodworking on Joinery." An absolutely indispensible book. Multiple articles by Tage Frid, Frank Klausz and Ian Kirby and others on all manner of joinery etchniques, with an article on template dovetails by Charles Riordan. This book also contained the first appearance of an article by Mark Duginske of a beautiful method using the accuracy and repeatibility of the table saw to cut dovetails as variable, sophisticated and charming as can be cut by any hand method. There is a curved dovetail article, a brief article on bandsaw-cut dovetails that unfortunately does not adequately show that the method is as accurate as the tablesaw method or the finest hand techniques.
"FineWoodworking on Boxes, Carcases and Drawers." Another absolutely indispensible book. Hand dovetails by Alfonse Mattia. Multiple articles by Tage Frid and Ian Kirby. Ian Kirby presents arguments regarding cutting pins or tails first, especially regarding case construction. His techniques and advice on case construction constitute an advanced degree on that subject with information about subtle relationships and methods of work that seem less than intuitive when first read, but which are logical and lucid when studied and which constitute the difference between a beginner's basic understanding and real mastery.
These 2 books are compilations and reprints of articles that had appeared previously in FineWoodworking monthly issues. There are lifetimes of knowledge between the covers and there isn't a joinery issue that isn't covered.
"FineWoodworking, Dec 2001, #152." An article by Steve Latta on the tablesaw dovetail method. Excellent article, with details of grinding an ordinary blade to 9-1/2 degrees to achieve a 6:1 dovetail angle. The blade can still be used for general work. The article also mentions that Forrest Manufacturing (800-733-7111) grinds any blade to the 9-1/2 degrees for $11.
"FineWoodworking, Feb 1996, #116. Tage Frid vs Chris Becksvoort in a "saw off." Advice to cut the pins (Frid) or tails (Becksvoort) first.
"The Bandsaw Book," Lonnie Bird. Among comprehensive advice on everything about bandsaws, a detailed artilce on bandsawn dovetails, using stopblocks for accuracy.
Dovetailing has acquired a mystique in woodworking. To the uninitiated it is supposed to be hard. It isn't. Anyone can learn to do it well. It's just a joint. I've used the table saw and bandsaw methods and can atttest to their being among the finest methods known, but it is important to learn to cut them by hand, first before moving on to machine methods. I hate cutting dovetails with a dovetail jig and having used several, will never use one again. The table saw method is infintely more flexible and versatile and when set up for production is the fastest method in captivity.
Rich
Do you have anything on cutting them where all of the endsides faces are curved, and the outsides are also curved to a different profile?
Rootburl,I'm not sure I follow, but check out the article by John F. Anderson in "FWW on Joinery." The pins and tails can be curved to the same or different profiles.Rich
Back around 1981 I read an article in FWW of how to cut dovetails for a drawer side with a curved front. In the vain of one-upmanship, exercise for the mind, and skill building, I thought it would be fun to make a box with curved dovetails on all sides.
I never could bring myself to glue it together, because something is lost when you can no longer see into the joints.
Sorry for posting the same photo twice, I didn't think it took the first time.:
Sweet.
Rootburl,
Beautiful work. I see what you mean about not wanting to hide the construction. Like when a watercolor artist leaves the construction lines showing through the painting. I love that.
I hope you get a chance to see the article I mentioned. The geometry is different and the joint hides a secret bevel.
Rich
Rootburl.Clever and well executed.
Perhaps you could make one side of a different/contrasting wood then glue up. It will show off the joint better than matching wood.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
View Image
because something is lost when you can no longer see into the joints.
Put that picture under glass inside the top and glue it together!
Why bother? That would not make it any better. with my combo arthritis / carpal tunnel, I can just barely get one side off as it is. If you were here in my shop, and talking joinery, and handed you that box glued up, you might shrug, but once you work i apart, so that you can see inside, your understanding of the technical aspect far better.
Whomever ends up with it after I am dead can glue it together if they choose to.
Why bother? That would not make it any better.....
YES it would... Beutiful box... Finished.. OLD as Heck!
May be on that PBS show someday worth $444.000
EDIT: Do not sell yourself short ANYTIME!
Edited 5/25/2005 5:25 pm ET by Will George
Will, I don't have a TV, so I don't know what show you are talking about. It sounds like I need to hire you to be my agent though if you think that should be the value.
I have never put a price on it, nor even thought about selling it. I just did it for the fun of making it.< EDIT: Do not sell yourself short ANYTIME! > I am not sure I understand this. What do you mean?
Look at the Stots jig. Look at Veritas hand dovetail guide. Both of them, with a little practice will get you started seeing other possibilities.
I think I am attaching a pic of my homemade pin jig. I'm not sure I have done that correctly.
Manager at the local Rockler store showed me a video. Looked very easy. One of these days I will try it. For me the joints come out right if I can see them with my eyes closed and practice enough.
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