| Hi Guys, Firstly this isn’t meant as a rant. A lot of salesmanship goes into selling dovetail saws and other tools. Following another post in which saws that cost a week’s wages were recommended (and don’t get me wrong, they’re very good saws), I took 20 minutes out at work and cut these complete dovetails as an example of what you can do with average tools Tools used were an exacto knife, 22″ panel saw (about 9-10 point) that the 14 year olds had run across a few nails in their process of learning and bent/blunted most teeth, a 1″ firmer chisel and a 1/4″ bevel edged chisel. Yes, that’s right, a trashed panel saw, nothing fancy at all. The 1:8 ratio is eyeballed, not marked with a sliding bevel or a fancy jig in this instance The dovetails almost fitted perfectly off the saw, only a minor bit of paring required I ran off one line – clearly visible, and chipped out a tiny corner of a pin when cleaning up the sawmarks (I only had 20″ to cut them complete), but these dovetails are perfectly serviceable, especially as a guide to those that have never cut them before , so: I guess all that I’m saying is that there’s no need to be fooled into thinking you’ve got to have top rate tools to do a serviceable job – granted, these dovetails in the pic are not absolutely top notch – they’re actually a heap of $#!t, but they would pass on a drawer for normal furniture, not commission stuff For dovetails, I have a 1950’s gents saw approx 15tpi or a jap saw with a spine – are they called a dozuki or a ryoba? I can’t remember. Just wanted to post these pics as a reference to beginners as to what’s perfectly acceptable and also to highlight that you don’t need top grade tools to make a perfectly serviceable joint. Just my two cents for what it’s worth. eddie | 
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Eddie,
Now this scares me....what you consider only 'servicable....pieces of &^%*(... are about as good as I can possibly produce. I'll probably never get to 'customer quality dovetails'...unless I buy a better saw....lol.
You make an excellent point...it's not the tool. However, your perspective lacks the experience of us newbies trying to develop skills on our own. Firstly, I started out with a 60's Stanley backsaw that still has a sales sticker..$3.95. Once I figured out the difference between a rip and a crosscut, I started to acquire saws to cut dovetails. The Freud Jents saw was about $12 bucks...but the teeth were so fine it took forever to cut anything. The Japanese Shark saw, $16 bucks, was sharp, fast but too whippy and the blade would not stay straight. The Dozuki was great ($40 bucks)....however, one swipe on some hardboard and a good portion of the teeth were gone. The point being I was already in the hole about $70 bucks with no tool. I went over to Woodcraft to get a replacement blade for the Dozuki when John, who had been watching me buy saw after saw, showed me the LN...actually he forced me to look at the LN...
The first thing I noticed about the LN was it would not cut smoothly unless you held it correctly....when properly held, it worked like a hot knife through butter and tracked perfectly. I practiced each tme before I actually cut any dovetails....this allows me to work the various positions of saw, body and movement into a unified whole. I tend to drift away from 90 degrees when I'm cutting tails...the saw helps a bit by binding when I do that.
Recently I acquired a disston backsaw for $5 bucks. It cuts beautifully....much heavier blade..stiff back... I'm sure that would work on dovetails regardless of the teeth set. Hell, the old Stanley will work too, but I think it also makes sense, especially while your learning, to develop and follow a process and minimize the number of variables so you can focus on the issues one at a time.
Now, let me pick on you...Mr. No-bevel....lol. I noticed from the pictures you took the time to critique your work..and 'Document' the issues on the piece....thereby providing a reference for improvement. I like that...but I think I need a mechanical pencil..better quality....lol
Too many people fuss too much with hand tools trying to get the quality of power tools.
I could look at some hand dovetails I have made in the past and compare them to yours, but my are servicable also and that is all that really matters.
Any saw and drill bit for removing the bulk of the material and a few sharp tools for finishing. (And always hide the sloppyness inside the joint.)
eddie
Does this mean I can keep my $9.95 (still magic marked on the handle) Greenlee tenon saw and $6.00 Crown dove-tail saw I bought in the early 70's?. I did modify the tenon saw handle to an open style to practice "quick-draw" techniques. Sanded off the lacquer and added a little Watco and it kinda looks like a LN. I haven't fooled anyone yet, but I still got time I think? ha...ha...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Go for your life, Sarge. Don't forget to call it a name like 'handmade dovetail saw' when you sell it on eBay
BG -I hear what your saying - I think on the Taunton site they had a good discussion on how to stand when using a saw, easy to show but hard to describe. When I'm teaching the kids I tell them that they need 5 things in the same plane
The end of the saw
The hand holding the saw
The elbow
The shoulder
Their eye
As well, put your index finger of the saw hand onto the side of the blade. This gives you a lot more control over where the saw's going.
Often, technique can be one reason for straying off the line - if the eye can see where the blade's going, it can catch the saw early if it starts going off line.
Just did a search of the taunton site - 5am here and my 1 y.o. and I have just seen the video clip on-line at Taunton (he's impressed). Here's the link. Looks close to the way I do it and also close to the way I teach how to cut straight.
We've got a hectic weekend ahead of us so I'll check for messages on Sunday night.
Cheers,
eddie
Eddie,
I'm glad to hear you and your son had a chance to catch a movie together...pretty soon he'll discover popcorn...and treat your tools to a highway building project in backyard dirt...
I dragged my 27 yr. old over to the lumber yard this morning...he disappeared when he saw me going for the planes...oh well...someday.
I have watched Phil Lowe video many times, its very good. I do like however, Ian Kirby's approach which includes leveling and squaring the wood and marking the face sides...helps keep you oriented to the total project (eg. making a draw). On the other hand, Ian begins his cuts on the far side of the board and Phil starts his on the near side aligning with both lines simultaneously (especially on tail cuts)...not a huge difference..but I like Phil's approach better (slightly).
Have a great weekend..and enjoy that baby..
Eddie, those look about equivelent to handcut dovetails I cut several years ago in 1x Dougfir and 5/4 pine while building some new toolstands. The stands have worked out well and are just as strong and rack resistant as they were when I built them 10+ years ago.
For such applications, you don't need beauty, but you do need decent fit. And they shouldn't be UGLY, just workman like.
I truly enjoyed the experience and have cut many DT's by hand since. I still don't have a fancy jig, but I am seriously considering the Leigh for a future purchase. I like the versatility of the thing.
I doubt I'll get the Leigh FMT jig, however. I have already shopbuilt something kinda similar, kinda different, that will do all I need in frame M&T joints. Anything beyond that will be hand cut.
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
Been using Uncle Paul's old Disston 68 my whole life...sure works OK for me...seems to take a lot of sharpenings.
Would those saws count?
Anyway, I noticed these old gems are 20 bucks or so on EBAY and all they need is sharpening. “When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
God bless you for this post.
I agree whole heartedly. I never bought a real expensive saw, I think the most expensive was about $40.00. I have tried a Japanese saw as well as a Western saw. What I ended up with is using a Zona saw $8.00. Love it! I started using it based on the recomendation of a graduate of the College of the Redwoods.
He would get a kick of showing it to people and saying how much it cost, then showing the beautiful work he was capable of doing with it. So I definetely agree that spending alot of money on a saw is not necessary. For me it was practice, mess up, practice,mess up, practice, not mess up as bad, practice, mess up even less, etc.
We go over and over this point in Knots, because there is no "right" place to come out.
On one hand, it's silly to get so caught up in tool quality that you never build anything, or believe that nothing can be built without the best tool, whatever that is.
On the other hand, it's wrong to underestimate the importance of quality tools, especially for the beginner. Try to explain the joys of handplaning to someone who's been fighting with a piece of oak and a $20 Stanley hardware store special for the last three hours. The experienced woodworker may be able to simply overwhelm the deficiencies of a poor tool with his skill. A beginner can't.
Taking dovetails specifically, there's just no doubt that a beginner will do better - will get more satisfaction more quickly - with a good saw and good chisels than with a poor saw and poor chisels. That doesn't mean the tools have to be the "best," but there is a reason for one of the other thread going on right now called "My Worst Tool Ever" or something like that.
When I think about tools (or lots of other things), it makes me think about skiing. It's true that an expert skier on lousy equipment will look pretty good. It's also true that a first-time skier on the best equipment will still be a beginner. But in skiing as in woodworking (and unlike golf), the equipment really does make a difference. Good equipment is more responsive and more reliable, and it makes your day easier and more fun. That's what it's all about.
Mark,
Points well made. To me the real question would be a side by side comparison of handsaws, how easily does it track, how durable is it, how comfortable is it??? I would expect that the answers to the above questions would be very subjective to the person using them and cost would always be weighted by each persons situation and skill to overcome shortcomings in the tool to make it function properly. I'm no expert in hand cut dovetails, but I can't believe how defensive people get of someone else's purchasing a $120 handsaw. I do however, appreciate recommendations of any tool that is cheaper and functions as well as or better than a higher priced, top of the line tool.
First and foremost, THANK YOU ALL! It's great to get real world opinions about the finer points of the job. I wish I'd read this answer before posting the question. For what it's worth, I agree that top of the line stuff is not essential, but a quality purpose - made tool can be the difference between furniture and firewood.
15Broad,
One last point that has not been mentioned. The best dovetail saws are drop dead beautiful. Everytime I open my cabinet where I store the tools my eyes go immediately to the LN dovetail and Disston backsaw...it makes me feel good.....given what I have spent on myself over my life time to make me feel good...it's very cheap...
Point taken BG. There's a lot to be said for how the tool makes you feel for owning it. Subconsciously one might try harder to do a better job out of respect for the tool.
That's exactly how I feel about my L-N's...
Right now I'm in the middle of "tooling up" to try dovetails cut by hand for myself... no L-N's here..... yet..... I'll see how I get on with these first.....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
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