I do my mitered edges on through dovetails with no premarking, premeasuring, or setup lines. Saves a lot of time without a loss of quality coming from the missing step of setting out lines. I couldn’t find anything telling how to do these miters when I looked, last year, so it took me quite a few attempts of trial and error to figure out the finer points before I managed to cuta joint that looked right from all angles. Now that I have it figured out, I have come to realize it’s not that hard after all. I wish I had been able to find a tutorial on it when I needed it. That’s why I took the time to post a tutorial on the Box Maker’s forum over at woodwork forums.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=525104#post525104
to help out the next guy who like me is tucked away far from the rest of the woodworking world trying to figure it out, mostly on his own. It’s my way of saying thanks to the whole on-line woodworking community that has helped me out so much.
I hope one or two of you guys find it useful.
Edited 6/20/2007 2:19 am by labolle
Replies
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar - your tutorial is great! Great text description and good clear photos. There's a site that is a compendium of links to dovetail information you should submit your turorial URL to
http://home.nj.rr.com/afoust/dovetails.html
I wish more people would share what they've learned as well as you've done. I've been putting stuff together that I've gleaned - initially for my own use and then on my WWing web site in hopes that they'll be of use to someone else - and maybe save them some trial and error experience.
Have found that some of the stuff that seems really tricky isn't - dovetails for example - or making coopered cabinet doors
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/CooperedDoors/CooperedDoors0.html
Thanks for making this useful info available
charlie b
labolle,
Well done!
I make candleboxes for Old Salem, in NC, that use a similar corner joint, with the addition of a groove for a sliding lid, and a molded top edge. The lid is a raised panel, and has a piece of mitered molding attached to its end. Here's a poor picture:
http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Other&spgmPic=1&spgmFilters=#pic
I once gave permission to a fellow to copy the box, at a craft fair. He carefully measured the box, made a few notes, and left. About an hour later, he returned. With a rather shamefaced grin, he said he was all the way to his car in the lot, when it dawned on him that the molding wasn't applied, but part of the sides, and mitered and dovetailed at the same time. "I had to come back and look at those corners one more time."
It's a joint that is a little hard to get your head around, til you have cut it a few times.
Ray
I'd love to see a close-up of the joinery of that candle box. Do you have any other pics?
Thanks.
labolle,
Sorry, that's the only picture I have. I'm pretty incompetant when it comes to posting pictures anyway.
Ray
Ray,
I'm pretty incompetant when it comes to posting pictures anyway.
Nay, nay young man. Might be challenged but never incompetent, not even sure you're pretty?
The first step is to download a copy of Irfanview and install it on your puter. This will allow you to resize it for us dial-up impared. A good size is about 9"x7".
At the bottom of your post screen, where you enter your response/post, there is a button "Attach Files", click on it and it brings up a dialogue box with 3 steps to the process.
1. The first "Browse" lets you browse your puter for the picture you want to attach. Once you've found it, after navigating thru the maze of files and folders on your puter, click on the file.
2. Next, click on the "Upload" button and wait. It may take several seconds but a message will then appear regarding the file/pic you selected in 1 above. It won't work until the message appears. When it does, you can got back to step 1 and select more files/pics. When you are finished.....
3. Click "Done".
Then you can either "Preview" it to see how it'll look, or simply click "Post" and that's it.
Now if you can make that BEAUTIFUL furniture, you can post a picture. Go ahead! Be brave.
If not, then I will have to pack up a case of bourbon and come down there and show you. But, it'll cost ya!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ah Bob,
You make it sound so easy. But, prior to all that, I have to get the pictures from the back of my K1000 Pentax into the back of said 'puter. That's the first place where I'm stymied. Then finding the #%&* things inside that labyrinth of files, folders, and programs is like the quest for the grail. If I'm not posted in an hour, send a search party!
Fair warning: show up on my doorstep with bourbon, and it'll be more costly to you than me! But I'll provide the fresh mint, and shaved ice.
Cheers,
Ray
I don't understand the reason for this joint? Since the dovetails look like thru dovetails except for the small diagonal line across the top. Are they stronger or something?
Jim,
As I understand it your question is, what is the advantage of the mitred edge on the through dovetails over the straight butt-jointed top edge that we usually have with through dovetails. Is that right?
Well, it's just a matter of looks. I don't think it makes the joint any stronger, but, in my opinion, it looks a bit neater at the edge.
Plus, it's a detail that is often skipped, so on those pieces that include it, it adds a little something to set it apart from the masses.
Cheers.
Perhaps the right way to do it?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
The right way to do it when that face of the joint is the face of interest. i.e. the top of a small box or similar. When it is the outer casing of casework, which usually has that view of the joint covered with molding, then it would be an unnecessary complication to the joint.
In other words its just to make it look good, else it looks like a butt joint.
Mike
Mike,
Guess my mind was in a box. Also, I keep thinking that when I do DTs I hate covering them up. But there is a time and place for everything I suppose.
Thanks for the input.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Another angle on the same joint. Pins first. I transfer my pins from a scrap to get the positions quickly. To cut the miters, I use a saw then I made a small scrap cut to 45 degrees to guide my chisel for the final fit. Its a nice way to finish the top of a box.
Dan
Danmart,
Very nice looking work. I just happened to have done the same joint today. But I still can't imagine tracing the pins accurately without the board moving out position before I'm done tracing the last line. If I were to try and do it pins first instead of tails first. I guess I'm just used to doing it my way.
By the way, I really like that chamfered edge on the top and will add that to the box I'm putting together now.
Cheers.
labolle
If you are comfortable doing your tails first, don't even consider changing. I don't know what it is but I meet very few joiners that say "it doesn't matter" which one is first. You get in a groove with a certain approach and that's what works. In the end, its the final fit that counts.
dan
Tails first forces you to use a knife to get into a tight space if you desire small pins. But as somebody else said - don't mess with success.
A lot of pins first guys will just mark 'em out with a sharp pencil. If you leave a hint of graphite they will fit fine everytime.
Ahh, So that's it. You need a knife to get in and scribe if you are a tails first kind of guy?
I just so happen to have had a special knife made for me that is ground to a dagger like point, but only beveled on one side of the blade so that the flat of it gets nice and tight to the edge of the tails and cuts a perfect line everytime. Having that knife and scribing the lines accurately made for a big improvement in the quality of my dovetails.
Another thing that made a big difference for me was figuring out a simple way to clamp the boards so that there is no way they can move out of alignment from the time when I scribe my first line up to the time that I finish the last line. Look at the tutorial at the start of this thread to see the way I use.
For the longest time, till I changed to the way I do it now, it was poor lines, and trouble holding pieces perfectly still from the first line to the last caused me the most trouble.
One of these days I'd like to stand next to a pins-first-kind-of-guy and see how they manage to hold the pieces still as they balance the pins on the board they are scribing onto. I know it's possible, I've seen some great work done that way, but can't imagine how they pull it off.
Labolle
Edited 11/21/2007 4:29 am by labolle
Have you cut dovetails on a tall carcase side yet? Were you pleased with the tails-first approach in that instance? Think about cutting the half-blind joint on a chimney cupboard where the sides are the pin pieces (so the joint won't show in the finished project).
If you cut your pieces square, use the pins-first approach, and mark with a pencil you won't need clamps at all to mark out most joints.
Screw a pencil sharpener to the wall and you will have a infinite number of "specially ground" marking implements.
What the hell, try it on a practice joint or two and you might decide you like it.
Edited 11/21/2007 6:41 am ET by UrbaneLegend
Ok. I am convinced that there are going to be times where a pins first approach would be better.
Now, how do you hold the board in the same exact place while tracing all the pins? Sharp pencil and a steady hand? Any other "tricks" to keep it from wobbling or shifting out of position?
Thanks.
Since you've done a great job cutting the pin piece square and the tail piece is presumably flat, you'd be surprised how easy it is to hold the pin piece in place (a square end is resting on a flat face). And the point behind the pencil is that you are not scribing a deep line. If you need to, use a soft lead pencil, well sharpened and with a light touch - you'll get all the mark you should need.
Corner clamps can help, as somebody else mentioned, but I've done carcase dovetails and held the pin piece lightly with one hand and marked with the other. I was brash and never gave it a second thought. Everything worked out fine.
Edited 11/21/2007 5:33 pm ET by UrbaneLegend
Regarding holding parts in order to scribe lines - here's one
way to do it using corner clamps - I think these are PONY
corner clamps - photo at bottom of page. Once clamped
NOTHING MOVES during marking. (one line so watch
the line wrap)http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer10.htmlAs you can see (I think) - here's one of many advantages to
Pins First - easy access for scribing tails. Other advantages
- scribe lines, especially light ones, in end grain are harder
to see than on face/edge grain. If you miss the scribe line
on a pin it's no big deal because you'll cut the tail to match
it. BUT - if you cut the tails first and use them to mark the
pins you'll be marking the pins in end grain - scribe lines
which are now very critical - will be harder to see,
- if you do really thin pins it's a LOT easier to scribe the tails
because you have plenty of room to work in. Not so if you
do the tails first and then try and mark the pins in very
tight quarters
- if you do Pins First, you can cut the pins on a bandsaw
usnig a fixed angle tilt table. If you cut the Tails First you
would need an adjustable for pin angle table - which just
complicates things a bit - unnecessarily. The best reason I can think of for doing the Pins First
is that Frank Klausz goes with Pins First. He's a VERY
efficient furniture maker - no wasted time or effort . If
there was a better (faster/easier) way to handcut dovetails
this guy would have found it - and perfected it.Regarding single bevel marking knives - a single bevel
knife produces more accurate scribe lines IF the un-
beveled face is against the reference face. Using a single
bevel knife you can mark o from the "front" and for the other directions from the "back" in order to keep theunbeveled
face against the reference face. It's handier if you have
TWO single bevel knives - one "left" and one "right".
All your scribing can then be done from the "front".There are other situtations where you CAN'T use just
one single bevel marking knife because the handle
gets in the way when marking from the "inside". But
that's for another thread.
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