Last weekend I picked up a Dozuki (sp?) saw to practice cutting dovetails. It cut through the red oak very nicely.
Last night I was putting some finishing touches on Jig and grabed the Dozuki to cut some 1/4″hard board..think that is what its called (peg board without the holes?). Anyhow, it took the teeth off the saw…so add $20 or so bucks to the cost of that jig for the replacment of the blade.
Replies
Curious - what brand of saw was that?
jdg
Jdg,
Dunno the brand, bought at Woodcraft and all the words were in Japanese (I think). Only the price was legible...lol
Not all Japanese saws are created equal! I went to Woodcraft and found what I believe is the saw you purchased. I would suggest you call them and see if you could get a replacement. Also keep in mind that most Japanese saws sold at lower prices are best use for softwoods and need to be treaded very gingerly. If you want one that will take abuse you’ll need to buy higher quality.
RickL
P.S. Here’s a good site for Japanese tools. http://www.thejapanwoodworkercatalog.com/c/g8/index.html
Rickl,
The only thing on the blade is a Z.....I know I can get a replacment blade and that will probably be what I will do. I am surprised however, that the 1/4 hardboard destroyed it so easily...ripped off an inch of teeth in two places..and 3-4 1/2" worth of teeth were removed. Especially after it had handled the red oak so easily. I think the real mesage here is becareful of hardboard.
I'm gonna buy a LN dovetail saw also.
thanks
I meant to see if Woodcraft would replace it. Maybe there's a defect, I like you am also surprise that the 1/4 hardboard destroyed it so easily. I had a router bit break into two pieces on pine, even thou I had used it on maple several times and Lee Valley replace it without a problem. Just a suggestion.
Good luck,
RickL
I would also like to know the brand, if possible. Please post a photo of the Japanese if you can.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Hey Norm,
I provided a link to the saw I beleive BG has and if I'm wrong BG please let me know.
http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/product_family.asp?family%5Fid=850&gift=False&0=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D10000%26Tree%3D%2CDepartments&1=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D1040%26menu%5Fid%3D%26Tree%3D0%2CSaws&2=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D2124%26menu%5Fid%3D%26Tree%3D1%2CHandsaws&Gift=False&mscssid=000B3CACB835AE94E6AB4898CB8A2A00
RickL
P.S. BTW I was just wondering why I haven't notice any post from you recently. Keeping busy I hope.
Edited 2/7/2003 11:12:55 AM ET by R!CKL
Edited 2/7/2003 11:28:57 AM ET by R!CKL
Rickl,
I do believe that is the saw..the Z saw that your link points to at Woodcraft. I'll ask about them replacing...you never know unless you ask. Anxious to hear if Norm has a prespective on this...
thanks
Busy, yes, Rick, though not with much woodworking. My university job has been pretty time-consuming lately. Only thing remotely connected with "wood" I've done is to put a laminated floor in our tv room last weekend. Not much fun in that.
As for the saw, it looks like a common type here, though hard for me to make out the brand itself (ACE?). I'll take a look at the stores. I agree that the teeth tend to be harder on a lot of the saws here. Most work is done in soft woods. I have a ryoba that has several teeth knocked out.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
You'll love the L-N.
Mark,
Wow! Your right, this LN dovetail saw is really something. It kinda demands you handle it in a professional competent manner....and in so doing ...it makes you more competent. I love tools that teach...
>> I think the real mesage here is becareful of hardboard.
??????
I think the real message is that the saw you found to be inadequate to cut hardboard is a piece of junk. Can't cut hardboard??? Hummmmph! You can have that saw! Japanese or not! I don't think any self respecting Japanese woodworker would tell you that that saw is anything but a piece manufactured to the lowest quality standards with Japanese printing on it with the intent of dupping the US consumer by capitalizing on the otherwise good reputation of other Japanese tools.
Buyer beware.
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience.
Sorta reminds me of my new exhaust system and brakes that I got on my '95 suburban at Midas Muffler (that would be on College Dr. in Baton Rouge, La., near I-10) two weeks ago. What shi*! What a rip! I mean you can't imagine! You have to try to mess something up to have this much messing up on one car. I feel like getting a banner for the back of my car denouncing them. They managed to mess up both the brakes and the muffler/exhaust system. Must have been smoking something out back during break. - Ok, thanks for letting me vent. lol
jdg
Jdg,
My wife had the same issues with Midas up here with her muffler and brakes. Every year she had to go back for the muffler and the brakes were horrible. I since have found an independent guy that when he does the brakes it feels like a brand new car...and very reasonable.
I kinda expect the same from Woodcraft. All the guys there are knowledgable and I expect their products to be of high quality. They did try to sell me the LN but I wanted to practice with something cheaper first and not destroy the LN in the process of learning. I have heard the Japanese woodworker has about 200 different saws to choose from. Now I'll buy the LN and be done.
It's the weekend...
The theory is that once you find an auto mechanic that does quality work in your town for a reasonable price, you develop and maintain that relationship for life - I mean Christmas cards, periodic gifts of food, introducing the single guys that work there to your sister,...whatever it takes.
If the guy that does work on my truck decides he wants a toolbox with handcut dovetail corners, I'm going to be getting out the marking guage and laying those babies out.
Oh wait, first I've got to rip some boards to dimension on my tablesaw which I've just learned is so crappy compared to a European tablesaw that it's not fit for my dog to use!
Breaking teeth is a frequent problem with Japanese saws. The woods typically sawn in Japan are no where near american hardwoods so their saws are not designed for them.
If you contact Japanese Woodworker, they will tell you which saws are best for cutting hardwood.
I had what is probably the same saw you bought and the teeth were destroyed by sawing hardwood very quickly, i.e. black locust and oak. Woodcraft replaced it and the same thing happened. Zeta also has a black blade that will fit your handle. It has short, 17tpi teeth ground in a semi-rip configuration. Its especially made for cutting composition materials and hard wood.
I don't think Woodcraft carries that blade, but Tashiro's Hardware carries them. I think they are about $15.00. I've had one of those blades for a couple of years now and have used it to saw very hard woods and some hardboard. It just seems to get sharper and I've lost no teeth yet.
Don Clark
Don,
Thanks for that information. Where is Tashiro's Hardware or should I go after the Zeto name? thanks
He is in Seattle, I think, but only does mail order. Try http://www.tashirohardware.com
Don
Update!
I just checked Tashiro's site and couldn't find the black composition-cutting blade that I have for my dozuki. Sorry for pointing you in the wrong direction. However, you might try calling him. Maybe he still has it.
I knew I should have ordered two or three of those blades when I had the chance!
Don Clark
I think we all overlooked one SMALL item. Some hardboard (masonite) is tempered. That 'stuff' is beautiful for making jigs and slides, but it is so hard AND brittle that it is almost like trying to use the saw on a sheet of glass. I can't even hand drive a #18 brad into it without bending the brad. If that is what you were cutting, I'm not surprised that the teeth broke off. As someone else posted, these saws are not really designed to cut American hardwoods.
SawdustSteve
SawdustSteve,
Dunno if it was masonite or tempered but I did bend a few 1 1/2"brads trying to hold the pieces in place while the glue set up. So it likely was tempered stuff.
It isn't always obivious when using power tools how much more work goes into a rip cut than a cross cut or, as in this sitation, that 1/4" hardboard is that difficult to cut. It certainly makes me think twice about putting any hardboard on the TS for it may significantly reduce the life of my blade. I guess that is another benefit from doing it by hand, makes you more aware ...
I was a more than a little appaled at what happened to mine!
Granted what i was doing was more off the wall than anything. I'm making some lidded turned boxes. I want to match the grain top to bottom as much as possible. Rather than using the only parting tool I have ( close to 1/8" wide) I thought I'd saw the top off rather than using the parting tool. So why not turn the lathe in reverse and use the ultra thin Dozuki? Bad idea. Took the teeth off the better part of half the blade. This on a 2-1/2" diam green birch blank.
I've gone back to a hacksaw blade.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
They're beautiful saws, but if you can't count on them then are they really of any real utility to us. I'll replace the blade on the Dozuki and keep my Shark saw and go back to the LN.
Your situation dosen't make any sense at all...
Dennis & BG
Thanks for the info. I was thinking of buying one of the Japanese saws. I would have bought a cheaper one as BG to see how it suited me. Looks like a bad idea. Think I will file down the teeth on my Stihl chain saw and go with it. Never broke a tooth on it yet. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Greets, Sarge -
I don't know from 'expensive' as to the price of the Dozuki I bought, it was ~30bux at Rockler. Guess it was somewhere down in the lower end of the price range.
What I was doing with it was rather ill advised not only from the standpoint that it's not what the saw was intended for but using a saw on a lathe isn't really all that bright (grin). My problem was I needed to part off a box top and wanted to waste the least amount of material possible to maintain the grain matching. The Dozuki blade being thinner than the thinnest hacksaw blade I had made it a natural choice! (hehe)
Now then - I had up til then used it one all sorts of wood, in the "normal" fashion without any problems. When you consider how thin the blade is and the size of the teeth, there isn't much holding them on. Used properly, not in the brute force approach I took to get the turning into two pieces, if should be fine.
I've since gone back to the hacksaw, lathe turning about 60RPM and the lower end of the hacksaw frame anchored against the toolrest to take the thrust. No broken hacksaw teeth (or blades) yet.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Ok guys! It seems to me that we’re comparing apples to oranges here. I’ve been using Japanese saws for about 16yrs or so, and still have my original saw a Ryoba that I bought in Japan and probably paid under 30 bucks, and yes it has a few teeth missing but I still use it for quick cuts on construction lumber. Now on the other hand I have saws that I’ve paid $65 to $150 and haven’t had any problems and still as sharp as the day I bought them. My point is if you buy a good quality saw either a $100 Japanese saw or a Lie Nielson for the same price you’ll get good results. Hence the saying you get what you paid for.
As far as what’s better, it all depends on how you work, your likes and dislikes, selection of a saw or any tool for that matter is a personal thing. What’s right for me it’s not necessarily right for everyone else. In my case I prefer a straight handle, the ability to adjust the angel of it, replace the blade when it’s too far gone to re-sharpen (not all saws have those capabilities) and believe I have better control and able to make better cuts on the pull. If Lie Lielse made a saw like that I would buy it in a hart beat, so far the closest thing is the Straight Handled Dovetail Saw for $75. But it doesn’t cut on the pull. If your curious to find out if a Japanese saw is right for you, by all means buy an inexpensive one and try it, just remember that a good one will feel ten times better.
My 2 ¢
RickL
P.S. Sorry for the different size font, I don't know what happen.
Edited 2/10/2003 8:53:09 AM ET by R!CKL
Dennis
I will give it a shot at the cheap price. I wonder if the Japanese use a lot of soft wood. I actually do at this point as most everything I need is already built. A lot of what I do is given to shelters, etc. and most made with donated shorts people give me for that purpose. I also co-op with a few friends at Xmas and we turn out several hundred wooden toys for needy kids. Most of those are soft-wood shorts also.
I will proceed with the Missouri method of "show me". At $30, worth a shot either way to just to see for myself. Rick may have a point about you get what you pay for. Most of the time anyway. Maybe we should ask a condo time sharer that question. ha..ha..
Have a great day...
sarge..jt
I've got a number of Japanese saws that range from expensive to cheap. A few hundred dollars worth of saws and they're all missing teeth.
Now I use either old Disston, old Atkins or new Independence (now LN) saws. The one major thing I learned from all this is that Japanese saws became popular with woodworkers because so few of them ever used a properly set and sharpened Western style saw. Every one of my good saws is going to give me a life time of service and still have plenty of life for another generation or two. The biggest plus is that Western style saws offer better control. My investment in saws has been made and the only expense left is an occasional file to maintain them.
I have more invested in now junk Japanese saws than in all the better saws combined. It's been an expensive lesson I urge others to avoid.
Larry,
Is there much of a big learning curve in learning to sharpen your own saws?
I did my first hand cut dovetails for three projects this fall that were Christmas presents (Magazine rack, tackle box and CD rack) using the L-N Independence dovetail saw and it turned out to be much easier than I thought it would be. "Piece of cake" in military jargon. I love that saw, and I know if you send it back to them they will resharpen it for a nominal fee. (Mine's not dull yet.)
I want to follow the discipline of Anthony Guidice in the book, "The Seven Essentials of Woodworking" - he advocates making a saw vice, sharpening your own saws, using bow saws for joinery, taking most of the crosscut set out of the teeth, and using them more like rip saws to get a narrow kerf for dovetails and other joinery. The bow saw that I have, for instance (one of the ones that he uses for an example) has 9TPI and has to have a little bit of the set taken out of the teeth.
I guess I want to be able to do this (sharpen my own saws) for the feeling of independence that it would give me. Kind of like when I first learned to tune a guitar by ear without relying on an electronic tuner. I would be afraid to mess with the 15 TPI L-N, however.
Any war stories or especially good sources for sharpening your own joinery-type saws? Thanks. Ed
Ed,
Sharpening rip is relatively easy. Sharpening cross cut takes a little more patience--you kind of have to sneak up on the angles to keep everything straight. The bigger the teeth, the easier things are so 9 tpi should be a good place to start learning.
Pete Taran's site, http://www.vintagesaws.com , has a lot of good information about saw sharpening.
Yikes I left out something: After jointing your saw, use machinist's layout fluid to put a light coat on the created flats and the faces of the teeth. It makes it a lot easier to see what you're doing and where you've been. You can clean up the saw later with alcohol.
Edited 2/9/2003 6:49:43 PM ET by Larry Williams
Thanks, I had been to Pete Taran's site before looking at saws for sale but I missed the fact that he had so much background content on it. Good stuff. Ed
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