Replies

1. 
   mike4244 | Jul 15, 2005 08:59pm | #1

   Maybe a 1/32", or even a 1/16". Point the peg so it does not splinter the opposite side when the peg comes thru. The bigger the offset the more you have to point the end.

   When you try to mate parts with dowels that are not perfectly aligned you will have problems. This is different than a joint that is pegged and drawn.I use glue, but no glue is necessary if their are two pegs in each mortise. I also glue the peg.

   What happens in a draw bored joint is, the tenon is pulled towards the joint, the peg bends a little as it is banged thru.This results in a very tight joint as long as the tenon is cut a bit short. I cut the tenons about 1/8" short of the mortise depth.You can release any clamps as soon as the pegs are thru. Sometimes I don't bother with clamps at all.I think you should try it out on a scrap first, make one hole 1/32" offset, try another at 1/16". I use 3/8" pegs most of the time, I point them with the old time pencil sharpeners.You can whittle,sand,block plane, etc to point the pegs.

   mike

2. 
   DougF | Jul 15, 2005 09:04pm | #2

   In a previous discussion on this technique, a poster who did entensive restorations related that his experieince was when antiques were disassembled, parts with failed joinery using offsets tended to crush and weaken the peg.  I've never used this approach but it seems to me if the only purpose if draw the joint tighter clamping and drilling and then inserting the peg while the joint is under clamp pressure should accomplish the same purpose.

3. 
   Rich14 | Jul 15, 2005 09:45pm | #3

   I agree with the 2 previous messages. If the joint is glued and tightly clamped, drilling for the peg straight through at that point, and hammering in a tightly-fitting peg will achieve the intended effect.

   But pegging using the offset method can achieve joinery that needs no glue at all.

   It's very important to drill the cheek of the mortise piece as close to the shoulder of the tenon as possible. If the peg is too close to the end of the tenon (too far away from the shoulder) the small amount of tenon endgrain from the peg to the end of the tenon can pop out. This can easily happen with a through mortise and even in a closed mortise (which, even though closed, should have space between the end of the tenon and the blind end of the mortise).

   Conversely, if the peg is too close to the tenon shoulder, the side grain of the mortise piece can be compromised.

   Rich

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/15/2005 5:29 pm ET by Rich14

1. 
   Rich14 | Jul 15, 2005 10:02pm | #4

   Another nicety about the technique:

   This method of joinery predates the age of modern glues and was probably used partly due to bad experiences with glue failure. (Although it's hard to believe that practitioners of this method did not have hide glue at their disposal).

   Round dowels are a "modern" development. Pegging was usually done with pegs of square cross section. (actually, they were not perfectly square. Being hand-made they may have had a few more sides than 4, but they were not round.) The holes were round, of course.

   The square peg is slightly larger than the round hole. When driven home, the "corners" of the peg dig into the circumference of the hole, crushing the tissue of the mortise piece cheeks minutely, securing the peg.

   The effect is delightful and looks very nice. I always use square cross section pegs, cut from the same hardwood as the piece, or a contrasting hardwood, when pinning a M&T joint. Never, ever use preformed (*ugh*) dowel material.

   Rich

1. 
   DougF | Jul 15, 2005 11:22pm | #6

   "....the "corners" of the peg dig into the circumference of the hole, crushing the tissue of the mortise piece cheeks minutely, securing the peg."

   If the pegs are going to show, when you plane the pegs flush does not the "deformed" hole detract from the effect or are you leaving the pegs proud and beveling the edges?

   Edited 7/15/2005 5:24 pm ET by Doug

1. 
   Rich14 | Jul 16, 2005 12:24am | #7

   Doug,

   I always leave the pegs proud - thanks for bringing that up.

   And I chamfer peg's end grain  with a very sharp chisel into a blunt, low, four-sided "point." The chamfering leaves the end grain polished. Looks nice.

   But if the peg were made flush with the mortise piece, it would still pretty much "fill up" the hole which is essentially square, due to the compression force of the peg, and still look good.

   Some workers use an octagonal peg. An octagon is much closer to a circular shape than a square. This looks very good, also.

   Don't get the idea that any of these hand-made pegs are uniform in their diameter along their length. Quite the opposite. That's part of their charm.

   Rich

   Edited 7/15/2005 5:27 pm ET by Rich14

1. 
   DougF | Jul 16, 2005 03:47am | #9

   Rich, thanks for the clarifacation.  How proud do you leave the pey and do you start the chamfer at the base or slightly higher? 

2. 
   Rich14 | Jul 16, 2005 06:37am | #11

   Doug,I don't measure them. I guess they start out about 3/8 high when first hammered in. Paring them down is hardly a process of measuring, more like just carving until the thing looks right, which is "just a little nub."The blade needs to be very sharp. You don't want to hit the mortise piece and leave a mark there by having the blade jump off the peg. It will do that unless it is sharp enough to easily slice the tissue.I guess I try to have the facets end slightly high of the base. I don't know if I always achieve that. We're not talking about a lot of carving area here. It's really a very small thing, and it's not very hard to just end up rounding the thing off.Rich

3. 
   DougF | Jul 16, 2005 05:28pm | #12

   Thanks again and I was able to followed your process and understand.  This is pretty much the way I handled the through tenons.  I had planned on using dowels for the pegs.  I think I'll switch and use square pegs instead.

2. 
   dlb | Sep 22, 2005 04:13am | #17

   Well, when I first read your post I thought that you were a bit excentric - making your own dowel pin. For .89 I can buy 3' of hardwood doweling in a contrasting, but complimentary, color to the wood it will be set in. THEN tonight I went to my shop to glue up a table top and thought, "I'll try to make some dowel pins." I cut some red oak 3/8" square, pulled out my low angle block plane and in 10 minutes I had a multi-sided dowel rod. I do not think that I will ever spend a penny again on a dowel rod. THanks for the challenge.

   dlb

   .

   p.s. I like the idea of a square peg in a round hole. I will give that a try.

    

   Edited 9/22/2005 3:24 pm ET by dlb

1. 
   Rich14 | Sep 22, 2005 06:35pm | #18

   "when I first read your post I thought that you a bit excentric "

   Well, yeah!

   Rich

4. 
   joinerswork | Jul 15, 2005 10:26pm | #5

   Samson,

   A 7/16" pin is pretty big for draw-bore pinning.  You must have a large mortise and tenon joint in mind. 

   Traditionally the pin used was a tough, flexible wood, hickory, or oak most commonly.  The hole was typically bored all the way through the joint, and the pin was sharpened to a point, often tapered as well. You can trim the point off flush after assembly if it is where it would show.

   It doesn't take much offset to do the job of pulling the joint up tight --less than a 1/16" in furniture sized joints. Too much and the pin will be weakened, or break in two, or you'll split out the end of the tenon. The advantage is that it eliminates the need for clamps, and allegedly, glue (used a lot in building barns). It is easier for me to pull the joint tight  by clamping, then bore through the joint, and drive a pin while still in clamps.  Clamps may be pulled immediately, and the project  carefully set aside.  This is especially helpful in assembling a run of multiples, like a set of chairs.

   Incidentally, a dowel doen't make the best pin.  I was taught to use a square pin. Size the sides of the pin to be exactly the same as the diameter of the hole. Chamfer the corners back about 1/3 of their length with your pocketknife to ease entry. Generally the pin deforms the hole, making a tight fit.  No danger of splitting if the pin is not oversize.

   Regards,

   Ray

5. 
   troys | Jul 16, 2005 12:29am | #8

   I just finished a work bench and offset the holes for the dowels to draw the mortise and tenons tight. I had not used this method before and used oak dowel stock and it seemed to to work well for me. Good luck
   Troy

6. 
   Floss | Jul 16, 2005 03:52am | #10

   Samson,

   Here is a Chippendale desk with secretary circa 1760-1770 from the Maryland/Delaware area. The whole piece is basically assembled with pinned mortise and tenon and the feet and mouldings are pinned with wood as well. The joints are not draw bored however the pins are hand whittled with numerous facets. The facets help to key the pins in the holes and lock them in place. It is because of this that I would not use machined dowels if you do not intend to draw bore.

   J.P.

   http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

   
7. 
   Walker1 | Jul 16, 2005 11:07pm | #13

   This is a great thread.  It wasn't my question, but I learned a lot.

       Thanks.           Walker 1

8. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 17, 2005 03:10am | #14

   I do this a lot. In my opinion, drawboring is an alternative to gluing; I can't think of any possible reason to drawbore AND glue. If you are going to glue the M&T anyway, do that first and then drill and peg after the glue has set (or even before, if you're in a big hurry to get the clamps off). Drawboring takes extra steps and extra fussing, and there's just no point in doing it in a glued joint.

   That's my opinion, anyone have a countervailing argument?

   Pretty much everything else has already been said: don't use dowel stock, make your own pegs, preferably by riving; about 1/16" offset is plenty; a 7/16" peg is rather on the large size - 3/8" is about the largest I use in furniture; drive a square peg into a round hole for a nice effect.
   If you are drawboring, whittle the square peg to an octagon and taper the point before driving, leaving the head square. When you drive them in, the sound will tell you when the joint is tight.

   What I do is, drill the holes through the mortise first, then insert the tenon and use the drill bit (preferably a brad-point) to mark the center. Pull the tenon back out and drill the hole just slightly offset toward the shoulder. I do this by eye.

   Properly done, this is an extremely robust joint, which will likely outlast glue joints. Another big plus is that it does not depend on a good fit between the tenon and the mortise - in fact the tenon can be quite loose and the joint will still be tight and strong. It's a very forgiving technique. One thing to watch out for is overdriving the peg, causing tearout on the back side. You can mitigate against this by chamfering the outside of the peg hole on the back.

   "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   Samson | Jul 17, 2005 05:45pm | #15

   I can't thank you all enough for sharing your experience and knowledge on this.  This thread really reminds of what this place is all about.  Thank you all!

9. 
   Ricks503 | Jul 18, 2005 10:04pm | #16

   This joint was sometimes used to keep a joint tight with no glue.

   If you use glue and have clamps it is an unnecessary joint.

   If you want to use it, you only need a 1/32" offset

   1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1