Replies

1. 
   AlanTurner | Mar 25, 2003 05:59pm | #1

   There was quite a nice article about 6 - 18 mos. ago in FWW, by a awoman affiliated with North Bennett Street School, in Boston.  She takes it start to finish.  REad that several times, and you will have it down.

1. 
   [email protected] | Mar 25, 2003 06:50pm | #2

   Try the following link for a great tutorial on building drawers. http://curve.phpwebhosting.com/~luka/articles/drawers/rjones1.html

1. 
   AlanTurner | Mar 25, 2003 07:49pm | #3

   Thanks, although I think you meant this link for the thread starter.  I read it anyway, and am I correct in thinking that this was by our very skilled Richard Jones?  The "wee bit" could sound like an accent, me thinks.  Funny, but i am doing some drawers now, 4 in #, and was wondering if 8 hours was the correct amount of time to budget.  I am not selling this piece, a 4 drawer chest, but was just thinking about efficiency, and an earlier post from Mr. Jones, to the effect of 2 hours, per joint, etc.  I guess a drawer has 4 joints, counted one way, and he says 8 hours for a standard dovetailed drawer.  Wonder if his estimate includes milling time.  I would have thought 4 drawers, just the dovetails, would be about 8 hours, but I will know better after this weekend.  Never tried the mass sawn through dovetails for the rear, but will try that also.  No reason it should not work just fine.   I try to resaw for the drawer sides and back early on, making them a bit oversize, so that when they move a wee bit, as they always do, they can be reflattened.  It is wood, after all.

1. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 25, 2003 08:42pm | #4

   s4s, if estimating a job that includes a single traditional drawer with hand cut dovetails, and including drawer slips, eight hours is what I charge for. This is making such a drawer with already machined and squared parts.

   So, the job entails cutting the parts to length, shooting the ends square if needed, cutting the sides and front to a slightly fat width, tapering the sides slightly to almost 'go home,' bevelling the top edge and ends of the front to similarly almost 'go home,' machining the bullnose moulding on the top edge of the back, running the groove in the drawer front to accept the drawer bottom, laying out and marking the dovetails, followed by cutting them, then assembling the drawer with glue.

   Next the slips have to be manufactured, and the wee tenon cut in it to fit into the groove in the drawer front, and the rear notched to fit under the drawer back-- in one configuration anyway, followed by making up the solid wood bottom to fit the groove in the slips and the drawer front, and locking it in place with screws into the underside of the drawer back through slots in the bottom to allow for movement.

   Lastly, the drawer has to have the top edges of the sides and the top edge of the front, as well as the ends of the front shot with a hand plane to fit precisely into the cabinet opening-- the outside faces of the sides might need a bit of shooting too, and a hole or two bored to accept a simple pull, and the drawer box planed and scraped to just about 'polish ready.' Polishing is another charge outside the construction.

   This kind of drawer is really pretty much at the top end of the range, where a tight 'piston' fit (as good as we can get in cabinetmaking anyway) is required in a tradional type drawer. Making a drawer this precisely using very high level skills will usually take about 7- 8 hrs., but if a set of six or so is made all at once, the time can often be got down to about 6 to 6.5 hours per drawer.

   I can make drawers by hand quite a bit faster than this, but they are a sloppier fit-- about 2.5 mm space all around instead of about 1 mm or less, coarser dovetails, no drawer slip, the sides are thicker and the groove worked in them directly, the bottom is plywood and nailed in place, no fancy bullnose moulding on the top edge of the drawer back, etc.. For me, the eight hours per drawer charge is useful as reference point when estimating. I just enter it as a line item, and if I'm going for a less precise drawer than this time indicates, I simply adjust the hours charged to suit. Slainte.Website    The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.

1. 
   AlanTurner | Mar 26, 2003 12:05am | #5

   Thank you for the comments.  I understand you to say that 8 hours per traditional drawer includes the milling of the stock.  I had put this into the category of 15 BF/hr. in your formula.  But, the # of BF is somewhat small, given the dimensions.  Resawing the sides, back and bottom.  Gluing up the bottom.  All of that stuff is in your 8 hours.  When all of that is considered, then I may not make it in 8 hours.

   Another question if I could, along the same lines.  Say for a chest, one is using traditional, structural drawer dividers, which are sliding dovetailed into the solid carcase.  A chest 2 drawers wide.  Then, you would have:  4 sliding dovetails (front and back), 4 sliding dovetails (the verticals) and 6 M&T runners, for a total of 14 joints.  Would this be 28 hours in your formula?  And, say you were doing a frame and panel back, then 4 M&T for the corners, for 4 joints, and say 9 slats, T&G, top, bottom, and sides.  How would you count these? 

   I am building a 4 drawer chest, two drawers high, 2 wide, 4' wide, 2' tall, all solid everything, dovertailed carcase, etc.  I ahven't counted the # of joints, but it could be a bit staggering.  Think I will count them tonight just for fun.  Your formula intrigued me.  This is not my day job, but I sure do enjoy it.

2. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 26, 2003 07:11am | #6

   Gosh, s4s, a full pricing job out of drawer construction question!!

   Well, start by establishing the cost of your material, and add your mark up to cover expenses and for profit. That mark up should come in somewhere like 25% or 30%, and this percentage mark up all depends on how you do your overall pricing-- you can add a bit to mark up, and reduce your overall labour charge and other strategies.

   Then you need to add something to that for sundries, which my records over the last 8 years I've found comes in at about 20% of the cost of your materials, and you'll need a markup on that too for profit, say 30% again. Sundries covers a multitude of sins in my estimating system, but typically it's job related expenses that can't be allocated easily to a project, e.g., glue, abrasives, screws, nails, rags, dye, stain, and all sorts of other 'indirect' costs such as saw doctor services, etc.. It all depends too on how you set up your accounts and allocate expenses.

   Now for a bit of labour. Let's say you've got 80 bf of solid wood in the project-- that's possible in your job. I find that on average you can take it from rough sawn to basic squared and trued ready for other processes at a rate of 15 bf per hour, which tots up to 5 hrs. to the nearest hour. That's a lot I hear some people cry. Well, there's a lot more to basic machining than most people allow for. It has to be got out from storage, selected for grain carefully, marked, allocated a purpose, measured, allocated to the customers job, billed, sawn, planed and thicknessed, and the unused stuff has to be stored again, and all the floor sweeping, emptying the bins, and other cleaning up has to be done. You also have to change the blade on the saw once in a while, and change the irons in the planing machines every now and then, and, oh, they have to sent off to the saw doctor for sharpening, which isn't free. 

   Now for actual construction. All those planks have to be joined up to make carcase sides, top and bottom, so allow two hours per edge joint, less 5% for every multiple of the same joint. Take the top-- lets say you use five planks to get the width-- that's four edge joints times 2 hrs per joint = 8 hrs. less four X 5% = -20% (or minus 1.6 hrs.) or 6.5 hrs to the nearest half hour. This 6.5 hrs contains allowances for squaring and truing edges, with a hand plane if necessary, and  for flattening after the glue up, and so on resdy for the next procedure. You've still got the sides and bottom to do yet. True, there's a whole bunch of ways you can save time, such as treating the sides and top as one piece with 4 edge joints, and cutting the one long plank formed into suitable usable lengths later. another way to save time is to make sure you're not too fussy about the quality of the actual edge joint, and other dodges. 

   Okay, so let's look at your frame and panel back-- four corner joints at 2 hrs per joint. again, and because it's four joints the same you can knock off 4 X 5% and call the job 6.5 hrs. Now your sliding dovetails. Again 4 X 2 hrs each, less the 20% discount = 6.5 hrs.

   Well this is just the basis of the system that I was  shown more than twenty years ago, and was stictly for hand work-- no fancy powered machines involved for most of it except for basic sawing and squaring of parts. One fault beginning furniture makers suffer from is hopelessly underestimating how long it will take to do a job, and they consistently underprice their work, often by as much as 50%. The job will actually take 100 hrs., but the niaive(sp?) woodworker will only allow 50-- he or she has just halved their labour rate, and it's pushed the following job back by more than a week.

   So with experience, and by keeping meticulous records throughout the years of being in business, you find out which jobs can be done quicker than the suggested rates, and which take longer. For instance, I've learned that machine (router) cut plain sliding dovetails only take about 1/2 hr each for a run of four or more, so I confidently estimate this job at 2.5 hrs. I allow a half hour 'fudge' factor to take care of contingencies.

   Gawd, I'd better stop now. I've whittered on aimlessly for far too long, but maybe you can puzzle out the basis of what I'm saying. I'd better write a well thought out article instead of blasting off in a forum, and get it sent off to a rag to see if I can earn a crust or two, ha, ha. Slainte.Website    The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.

3. 
   AlanTurner | Mar 26, 2003 08:29pm | #7

   Thanks again.  You  are a generous teacher.  I think on my next full piece of furn, I will keep the records, and see how it turns out.  Time for another question, this one drawer related?

   On these drawers I am building, basically 4 of the same size to sit 2 x 2, each is 8" tall, 21 7/8" wide, and will wind up at about 17 3/4 deep, from front of front to back of back.  I see in your article you recommend skids, or a similar word.  I have a nice chuck of 1" thick white UHMW plastic.  I know I can cut a plug from it, 3/8" dia.  I can also resaw it on the bandsaw.  I was thinking of drilling into the front corners of the drawer dividers and placing a small plug in each front corner, pared down later with a plane or chisel to about 1mm or so iin height, and then doing the same on the top of the sides, at the back.  Possibly also on the bpttom of the sides, at the back, and the top fronts of the dividers (the carcase top on the top drawers).  and they could be angled so that there was no bump.   I haven't yet decided on the drawer side thickness, but they could be from 7/16" down.  They are already cut and have moved all they will, I think.  Do you think this is a good strategy?  Also thinking of then drilling a small angled hole, through the wood and the plastic, and setting a small nail just to hold the plugs in place.  But this would make them hard to replace, should they ever need it, which I sort of doubt with this particular material.   White oak, with maple drawer parts, including solid bottoms. 

   I know that the last drawered piece I built, with piston type drawers, cherry veneer, cockbeads, the whole 9 yards, the drawers are beautiful, but they work only medium.  In fact, I am sufficiently concerned about it that I have left the drawers unfinished so that I can refit them when the humidity is up.

4. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 27, 2003 06:33am | #8

   s4s, it's going to take me a day or three to get back with you. I'm kind of busy, but I'll get to it, okay? Slainte.Website    The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.

5. 
   AlanTurner | Mar 27, 2003 03:42pm | #9

   Richard,

   I shall await your reply.  Thanks for your willingness to advise on this matter.

6. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 28, 2003 05:52pm | #10

   s4s, The skids you refer to are more properly known as drawer ‘slips.’ With thin drawer sides (~8-10 mm or ~3/8”) there isn’t much bearing surface on the bottom edge of the drawer side where it bears on the runner in the carcass. Also, running a groove to carry the drawer bottom in such a thin side would remove so much wood that the side would be weak. So, slips are made.

   Slips are small pieces of wood, usually a little longer than the length  of the side, and oblong in section, usually about 25 mm X 18 mm (1” X 3/4".) A groove is worked in one 18 mm face to carry the drawer bottom. The opposite 18 mm face is glued to the inner face of the drawer side. There all sorts of ways of making slips and working their groove and moulded edges. I think if you go back to that linked article, you’ll be able to see what a typical slip looks like—The first sketch shows a slip. Incidentally, that ‘article’ wasn’t really intended as an article. It was originally sent out as an emailed newsletter to clients, and potential clients. A recipient of the newsletter is involved with the forum that’s hosting the ‘article’ and  asked if they could put it up in an adapted form.

   I’m not sure if the wee plugs of UHMW plastic you propose will help the drawers slide in and out. I’ve never done it myself. It’s an interesting thought, but to be honest I don’t really see the benefit if the drawers are made well and fit neatly in the carcass. In my experience, a lot of drawer problems seem to relate to the carcase being just a touch out of square, or the drawer box being similarly out of square, or ‘in winding.’

   It does take some time to learn how to custom fit hand made drawers. In my earlier years I made some clunky drawers, too, ha, ha. But I’ve got better at it as time’s gone on, but still, every now and then things don’t go as planned and things have to be remade. Us old hands make mistakes too. Slainte.

    Website    The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.

7. 
   AlanTurner | Mar 28, 2003 07:05pm | #11

   Thank you for the information.  Notwithstanding your caution, I think I will give the wee plugs a try.  The UHMW is remarkable material, and worst case, I will just remove them.  This is not a piece for sale.  I rarely sell anything.  But I do take much pride in my work, and the way something works is to me also quite important.  From my sideboard experience a few months ago, where the action is not as desired, I will be refitting, but not remaking, the drawers.  (They are figured veneer, bookmatched, cockbeaded -- the 16 hr. flavor.)  But I do think that a few wee plugs will be beneficial, and non-obtrusive.

   When done, I'll report in here so noone else makes the mistake that I am porbably about to make myself.  Can't wait till tomorrow, its dovetails away. 

   By the way, I note that you drop the back down from the top about 3.16" in.  Do you leave the drawer sides full height all the way back?  I have in the past, and was wondering if perhpas they should be dropped a bit, either through use of 2 curves, or a gently and not very noticable taper made with a hand plane.  If so, this would affect the wee plugs and their placement.

8. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 28, 2003 07:20pm | #12

   s4s, Yes, the backs in the traditional drawers I make are a bit lower than the sides. It's to let air escape as the drawer is closed. A tight fitting drawer in a sealed carcase compresses the air at the back, and they can bounce out. I've seen it where the bottom drawer of a stack pops out when the top drawer is shut quickly, but this is usually only when the drawers are empty.

   No, there's no reason to reduce the height of the sides.

   Another cause of poorly operating drawers I forgot to mention earlier is if the drawer box is too sloppy a fit. It can rack side to side, causing it to jam, especially in closing, and the front can lever downwards if the height is too sloppy. This latter can happen with wear on old drawers, hence, slips are considered a maintenance item, and replaceable, as are brake pads in a car. Slainte.Website    The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.