Hi,
I am about to embark on a new project. I’ve decided to build a Shaker style dresser. (4 drawers). The drawers on this project are inset.
I don’t own a dovetail jig and the drawers are all dovetailed. I was wondering what other joinery I could use. The smallest drawer side is 4 1/2″ the largest 7 1/2″. I was thinking of using rabbet and dado joinery. I would have to glue and then screw the sides to the front and then counterbore for pegs to cover the screw holes.
Any suggestions?
Wanda
Replies
?????
Just use any old joint you want.
What difference could it possibly make to someone who decides to start a project in which dovetailing is an intrinsic property, but thinks that a dovetail jig is necessary, and not having one, immediately turns to the very kind of joinery the piece abhors?
Wanda, sorry to sound harsh, but why in the world would you want to emulate shaker design and workmanship and NOT try to learn how to cut dovetails?
Rich
hey-dee wanda,
for umpteen years i resorted to the lowly rabbet joint for all the drawers coming out of me shop. later, i rabbeted and then cut diagonal slots in each corner into which i glued a key or feather. this made for a pretty strong joint.
but wanda, wanda, wanda! the joy of learning and then doing good dovetails knows no equal, in happiness, under heaven. come on lady! you know you want to.
eef
p.s.
(the dovetails, to which i refer, are hand cut.)
Edited 2/21/2009 8:25 pm ET by Eef
Vertical sliding dovetail using the router?
Jim
You know . . . you could cut so so dovetails and they would be OK. The less than top shelf builders cut some pretty poor looking DTs in what I have seen. If you are afraid of them coming apart you can drill and pin them. ( for half blinds on the front pin down from the top or up from the bottom. )
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011168044.pdf
Here are some articles I like of DTs and other methonds :
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=31466
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2800
TOWANDA !
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/21/2009 10:12 pm by roc
Wanda, I'm no expert woodworker, but I can handcut dovetails - through or half-blind. In fact, if you are the least bit coordinated and have the proper tools and patience, so can you. I will volunteer to give you an online course (with pictures) right here on this thread if you think it would help. I'll walk you through it and give you feedback on any specific problems you run into. If you're game, I am.
Sean
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Wanda,
Sean makes the best offer - free edookashun! Snap it up. (He's being over-modest when he denies his expert status).
However, one alternative for a Shaker piece is finger joints which might not look too out of place in Shaker but which are easier to make than DTs. These can be handcut but also made easily with the TS or router table and a "key" to guide the spacing of the fingers. Modern glues mean that they're very strong, especially if machine-made with a consequent high precision-of-fit.
To make flush-fit drawers (i.e. to emulate half-blind joints on the drawer front) you would apply a false face to the finger-jointed drawer "box" then trim it to be flush with the box.
****
When I make a piece of any kind there is often a set of thin offcuts (or nice-wood offcuts which can be cut thin). I cut these into rectangles and use the Veritas router table with it's cross-cut fence and "key" to finger joint them, so I have a great stack at any time for making the carcasses of little boxes. Once the router table is set up, dozens of these finger-jointed box-sides can be made in an hour.
Lataxe
Edited 2/22/2009 6:01 am ET by Lataxe
I'm not sure what you mean when you write "the drawers are inset". Does that mean full with the face of the chest?
To answer your question, nails would be both authentic and effective. You could nail those drawers together as others have done before you.
Before the rest of you turn your nose up at this approach, nailing stuff is fun and not without it's own set of challenges. I think nailing a box is a better first (hand tool) project than dovetailing one.
I would nail it Wanda and I'd use reproduction cut nails like those from Tremont Nail Company.
Adam
Right Adam,Emulate a crude method that was replaced, even centuries ago, by a much higher level of craftsmanship. But go ahead and do it, because workers, without anything like the quality of tools and materials we have today, did it that way, then.The "Stuck-in-a Time-Warp" and the "Anything-That's-Old-Is-Better" school of woodworking.Rich
Rich,
Well, if we are going down this road, I suggest scooping out a drawer from a half log using a flint adz. There will only be slight problems of the drawer sticking when the wood shrinks.
But Adam does have a point, albeit obscured by his cyber-reputation. Did the Shakers themselves eschew nails? I do vaguely recall a Shaker book in which nailed chests and drawers made an appearance. I must go and dig through the many bookshelves.....
Meanwhile perhaps Adam might elaborate on the challenges of nailing. I must confess I have used cut nails (supplied by Mr Veritas) to swing bolt-head covers from; and to make attachments in one or two "rustic" pieces....... but not in the 10 or 12 Shaker pieces I've made.
Lataxe
Lataxe,Not sure how prevalent nail drawers were in terms of Shaker furniture. Of course others did use them and folks continue to mechanicaly fasten drawers together. Norm just uses an air nailer. So it's not really fair to compare this to hewing a cavity in a log. In terms of some of the challenges of nailing drawers, dovetails are self aligning aren't they. I can restrain out a liitle cup with a set of dts too. Nails are a bit trickier. Corner joints can be tough to clamp and easy to misalign. Just the action of nailing can cause misalignments, if the nail isn't driven perpendicular.Unlike dovetails, nailed joints rely on butt joints that actually aren't that easy to prep by hand. Sawing a board straight is one thing. Sawing it straight and perfectly square is another. You can plane out a mistake, but you might find you lost some length, then have to fix the opposite side. Regarding cut nails, of course they are directional. So that's an issue. Unlike wire nails they are also tapered which means they can split a board if you are not careful. Nailing at the bitter end of any board can be tricky.For an experienced craftsmen these issues are all a walk in the park. But for folks just starting out (with hand tools), these are real challenges. Just to be clear, I'm not saying such joints are better, preferable etc etc. Wanda asked for an alternative and offered this one. I knew some folks would reject it (whatever). My take is that nailing is authentic option if you don't want to dovetail. I also feel it's fun to make stuff with nails. You can build a bunch of storage boxes for your shop or simple furniture in an afternoon with some hide glue, a set of match planes, nails and white pine. It's fun! Good way to practice your hand skills. Adam
P.S. Pretty sure LV sells tremont nails. I think you can buy them in smaller quantities at LV than you can from Tremont which can be nice. Last time I looked into it, LV wasn't really marking the cost up much.
Character?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Yeah, like all the "antique" junk that is churned out of shops that feed so-called "antique outlets" has "character."How 'bout this: What would workers several hundred years ago have replied if it had been suggested to them to use techniques centuries older, like tying joints together with vines, instead of their "state of the art" cut nails?They would have laughed in derision. They made their pieces using the best methods available at the time and didn't get caught up in the affectation of emulating older, less capable craft. They didn't use cut nails because cut nails had "character." They used them because, at the time it was the best way to do the work. And the nonsense that "the old ways were the best" didn't get in their way. If they had had a better way, they would have used THAT.Obviously, I don't follow the thinking that hand methods and tools and equipment of the past, in and of themselves confer character or quality or desirability.That's just me.Rich
Edited 2/24/2009 6:38 am ET by Rich14
Rich,
I'm sympathetic to the sentiment that a lot of so-called antique stuff is just old junk. But not all. Also, I think one can make an argument for use of certain types of tools and methods because they impart a "character" to a piece. Of course, one has to like that character but this is just a matter of taste rather than a matter of the most efficient construction method.
That being said, an inefficient construction method is going to impart (amongst other characteristics) the attribute "soon will be junk". Also, some construction methods add the characteristic "rustic" or even "crude" or "badly made" But not always.
A six board nailed chest is a design that's stood the test of time. A carefully made one can have good character and survive for a couple of centuries. But can one sensibly make a nailed drawer that can be expected to look good (in a Shaker context in this instance) and also hold up as a construction method, long-term? I've only seen badly-nailed (junk) drawers in the flesh. But this doesn't necessarily mean a well-constructed nailed drawer can't be made. But can they?
When I use a nail of the old cut type it's usualy 70% decorative and 30% constructive - like hanging a bolt cover from; or using instead of a dowel through a breadboard end in a rustic/farmhouse sort of a piece. I also pre-drill to ensure there is no splitting and that the nail grips where it's supposed to.
Drawers, like chairs, are notoriously subject to greater forces of destruction through usage and time. Are there any well-used nailed-drawer pieces of 50 or even 150 years of age that are still intact, I wonder?
DTs do seem the most time-proven joint for drawers, at bottom.
Lataxe, staring at a cyber cloud and idly wondering.
Rich,Yeah, some of it's pretty bad. A while ago, I was poking around a furniture store and looking at all their gloss-finish veneered tables and came across some interesting distressing techniques. It looked like someone had taken a brad nail and poked a wavy row of five holes, like a bored six-year old sitting at the table might do. This pattern was repeated numerous times around the table. I laughed at that.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Wanda,
You are so quiet. Are ya there dear ?
I am here again to let you know, if you don't already, that the next Norm Abram's New Yankee Work shop show on PBS in the pipe line, for the week of 3-1-09, is a mahogany chest of drawers. Have fun !
PS: if you are really scared you could start with one of these and then progress to just following a line free hand:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41718cat=1,42884
Well some how that isn't taking me to the page but only the Lee Valley catalog
So enter this once you get there
Veritas Dovetail Saw Guide System
They are real slow to use but it helps to gain confidence and to get at least one joint to fit. From there you start to say hey this isn't so bad. But if you have a saw with too much set and you cut some sloppy stuff it is hard to believe they will ever come together nice.
And they make one for box joints if you aren't set up to cut them on the table saw which is way more fun on the table saw.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/24/2009 5:39 pm by roc
Edited 2/24/2009 5:41 pm by roc
Edited 2/24/2009 5:45 pm by roc
Hi Guys,
Yes, I'm still around. Haven't been online very much the last couple of days.
I have all the tools I need to make dovetails. (LN dovetail saw, a few bevel edged chisels, dovetail marker, marking gauge and fret saw.. think that covers it. It's the time I don't have. What I do need is a woodworking vise. Luckily for me Popular Woodworking has a plan for a vertical bench hook in their April 2009 magazine. (issue #175) perfect for holding handwork. No need to go out and buy an expensive vise.
I did manage to find a few good articles on drawers the other night while searching through a few old issues of FW mag and Wood mag. I'm going to use the method that was demonstrated in Wood Magazine (Issue 188 Dec./Jan. 2008/2009) So I'll be using the table saw for the joinery instead of dovetailing by hand for this project.
The plan for the Shaker Style dresser uses Common #2 pine. A functional piece of furniture that doesn't require a lot of time to put together.
The most difficult part of this project is going to be finding some decent lumber at Home Depot. Unfortunately, most of the pine boards come in 3/4" thickness. I have to prepare the leg pieces by gluing stock together to make 2" square leg blanks. Once the glue is set I can go ahead and machine the leg blanks to proper width and thickness ( 1 1/2" X 1 1/2")
Not much point in gluing up 2 pieces of 3/4" lumber. What I need is thicker lumber. If only they had 4/4 thick pine boards which I could plane and joint to the correct dimensions.
When I find time I will attempt to build a Hepplewhite table. That would be the perfect project to test out my non existent dovetailing skills. It only uses 12 board feet of lumber. :) So if I do mess up the drawer I won't be out a lot of money.
I must find the time to sneak down in the tool room and practice those dovetails. However, I don't think I have the skills right now to dovetail 5 drawers. I need practice practice practice!
Wanda
wanda,"I have all the tools I need to make dovetails . . . It's the time I don't have."???Why?
Rich,
Wanda is being naughty and arranging her schedules to ensure the dovetailing is put off for a bit. Come on, Wanda! It only takes a few to learn and once you have the skill you'll never lose it.
Now Wanda will list the 87 daily tasks she has to do, probably 35 of which should really be gettin' done by some lazy bloke.
Lataxe, some lazy bloke.
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