Hi Folks,
I have been messing around with a drwaknife of late and am curious to know more about them.
A recent need arose whereby I needed to shape some cabriole legs for a piece I’m working on. I don’t own a spokeshave that could be employed as I understand they are the tool of choice for this application.
Soooooo, looking at the small 6″ drawknife I decided to give it a try. First I honed the blade razor sharp using a small 1″ Delta belt sander armed with a slightly worn 120 belt.
My leather barbers strop with a charge of jewelers rouge on the canvas side took care of the wire burr on the edge followed by a few swipes on the leather.
This worked very well after I got into reading the grain properly. Go against the grain and there’s trouble lurking in the form of tearout and gouging the workpiece.
These tools seem to be very versatile and require some amount of finess to make them work. I’d really like to learn more about them. Any tips/tricks will be most appreciated.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob,
I've never had a problem with a 'lack of sharpness' on a drawknife. The buggers always seem to go where they want to go - as you indicate with the mention of "read the grain properly".
I've found the control provided by the sole and 'mouth' of a spokeshave is they way to do fine work. My drawknife is for hogging material.
Humbly,
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Hi Frosty,
I've found the control provided by the sole
Yup, kinda like ridin the bevel when yer turnin? Or sole in this case. The sole on the little fella I was using is sort of convex along the width of the blade so you can tilt the blade into the workpiece and offers some level of control for depth of cut.
Your echo of using these thangs to hog off material is what I have heard most as to their use. Guess I need to get a good spokeshave so I can experience the difference(s).
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
A drawknife works a lot like a chisel, or a plane blade without the benefit of a plane body to hold it in a fixed orientation with respect to the work. So, just like you can pare with a chisel, you can pare with a drawknife, but you have to be aware of the grain direction and always go "downhill," meaning that the if the blade were to follow the grain line it would come out of the workpiece. If you go in the other direction, you risk having the blade dig into the work. And because you don't have anything like a plane body to hold the blade and minimize the damaged area to a small chunk of tear-out, you can get a nasty split.
-Steve
One tip that I haven't seen another Knotter chime in with is to use the drawknife in a skewed fashion (rather than pulling both handles straight toward you).
Because they lack the sole ahead of the cutting edge that's on a spokeshave, drawknives (or any carving tool) really only work when used with the grain, as you noted in your original post. Skewing the blade helps enormously when you're in a place on the workpiece where the grain closely paralells the working surface, and can sometimes make it possible to even use the tool against the grain if the cut is light and the drawknife is very sharp.
Speaking of sharpening, you may want to go the extra step of stoning the blade with a fine oilstone or waterstone after the belt-grinding. 120 grit, even worn, leaves big ridges perpendicular to the cutting edge, and stropping really just rounds these over a bit. Stoning with a 1000 grit (waterstone) followed by a 4000 grit (waterstone), then finished with a leather strop will get you into the sharper-than-a-razor category us carvers strive for in carving tools. You will find that the knife offers considerably increased performance in such a condition.
One last thought- though not as dangerous as an adze, drawknives rank right up there in ability to draw blood. The safest way to use one is on a proper shave horse, which you can easily make with cut-off construction lumber if you prefer quick, cheap, crude and functional, or purchased from Lie-Nielsen if you prefer slick, engineered, expensive and back-ordered.
Bob, If you do break down (or break into the piggy bank) for a spoke shave I'll cast my vote for L-N Brian Boggs model. It is really a fine tool - Hell. why nor go for BOTH the flat and convex models? It's preparation for retirement.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Frosty,
Man you must be a mind reader! After Lataxes' post I went to LV and looked at theirs. Then someone suggested looking at the Woodworking Channel and saw Brian Boggs demo of a drawknife, and a peek at his spokeshaves, AND his shavehorse.
Dang, all that tool drool in one hour. I want all three now, and his drawknife, but I'll make the shavehorse though.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"shavehorse"-It's cheaper.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
There was an article and measured drawings of the boggs shaving horse in FWW a couple three years ago. It looks intriguing and is on the 'someday' list.
rhh
Well I'll be dipped!
The search engine found it. Just the ticket.
Many thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I have had the little LV Carver's drawknife for over 10 years now, and I seem to use it on most projects. It's very easy to control, easy to sharpen, and I find I use it more than my little trim router for edge treatment. It makes cutting lambs tongues a breeze!Regards,Ron
Ron,
I did a Google for Lee Valley drawknife and found one with a 4" blade (Item # 17U06.31? There's also another one called The Allpurpose Pushknife (Item # 01D30.10), again with a 4" blade.
Not sure which one you are referring to? Someone else recommended the pushknife to me in the past. Is this the one?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
My "baby" is known as the Carver's drawknife. Check out this link:http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=31074&cat=1,130,43332Regards,Ron
Your "baby" is nearly identical to my smallest drawknife that I have had for years and did not buy from LV. It is very handy and very sensitive.J
I just finished a 2 week workshop constructing Brian Boggs ladder back chair. The draw knife is an essential piece of equipment that we used almost every day during those 2 weeks. For the class I bought Barr's new chair making draw knife which required very little fuss to get working (although Barr had rounded the cutting edge a bit too much with over-buffing which required a trip to the grinder). Brian uses the draw knife with the bevel side UP. However, he rounds the back side so it is not perfectly flat so he can easily scoop in and out of the cut which would not be possible if the face was flat. Brian also will change the angle of the handles to make cutting with the bevel side up comfortable. His DVD probably explains this in more detail. The Barr draw knife is setup to cut with the bevel side DOWN. I found it very comfortable and quickly got the hang of it. While Brian Boggs can make his knife sing, it didn't take long for me to make mine whistle a tune. I can quickly hog off gobs of material then level the surface quite close to my layout lines whether curved or straight - and the surface shimmers as if cut by a handplane. However, we used very straight grain wood, which is desirable for the type of chairs Brian makes (since the wood is also steam bent). Brian says that gnarly grained wood poses problems. However, with careful technique I was able to go against the grain to a certain degree using shallow scooping/circular cuts. I am now a BIG FAN of the draw knife and will have it readily availabe on my work bench.
I realize that this is an old thread, but I wish to rekindle the subject. I have recently acquired a 10" drawknife with one flat side and a bevel. I find it easy to control, especially if "rubbing the bevel" and using straight grained wood. I have not a shaving horse (all in good time!) and have been using my front vice (I am glad that it racks a little!). I spent about two hours yesterday carving a twist into four legs and my shoulders and hands/wrists were sore afterwards. Is this a matter of technique or am I simply overdoing it?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I spent about two hours yesterday carving a twist into four legs and my shoulders and hands/wrists were sore afterwards. Is this a matter of technique or am I simply overdoing it?
As in did you ever date or lifted a few to many beers or Malt Liquors?I gave up and use a low angle Spokeshave made in Canada.
"did you ever date or lifted a few to many...?"No, I only have two hands!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Chris,
I'm a wee bit late getting into this but after using a drawknife on several occasions I swear by them. Started out with a little 6" that has a slight convex bevel to shape some cabriole legs. I now have 6 of them in various lengths and bevel configurations. Love em!
If you haven't tried it yet try skewing the blade and taking light cuts. With a little practice ye can git shavings that approximate gossamers ye git from planes.
I use em for all manner of shaping; the latest is shaping a handle ala plane tote fer me version of the Ultimate Crosscut sled.
Oh what fun those drawknives kin be,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/5/2009 7:45 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Damn you~ Not really!
I read your post and I re-sharpen my Veritas Low angle spoke shave blade..
I think I wore out three diamond stones doing all of the edges. AND I have a BIG slice in my right hand second finger from the thumb! Very glad if I bleed alot it stops sort of fast!
Will,
What the hey were ya doin, flippin the bird at a ChiTown cabbie!?
Actually it was all Mels fault. Not sure why but I'll think o' sumpin.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,Yes, I have tried different cuts - everything from heavy chips to fine shavings with the blade skewed. I have found that using a slicing motion helps with difficult grain too.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"spent about two hours yesterday carving a twist into four legs and my shoulders and hands/wrists were sore afterwards. Is this a matter of technique or am I simply overdoing it?"
I am not sure what amount of wood you had to remove but It takes me less than an hour to rehandle most hammers and that time includes riving the stock and about twenty minutes of careful fitting. You would be helped much by having a shaving horse as you can then work sitting in comfort and your legs oppose the pull of your arms with big savings for the back. Any heavy stock removal is mostly splitting action (still using the drawknife though) rather than actual shavings. The shaving action is reserved for refining the surfaces to final dimension and smoothness.
If by splitting, you mean that the wood is fracturing ahead of the blade, I was not splitting. I was taking thick shavings, thicker thanthe thickest shaving I can take from a jack. I roughed out the shape, then refined it with more careful cuts. A spokeshave did the rest.Giddy-up!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
When I first started chasing girls, oh so many decades ago, I found that my legs would get tired after a couple of hours, too. But, I persevered, and built up some stamina. ;-)New tools often tax previously-unused muscle groups. Stick with it, and pretty soon you'll be able to go to the beach to show off your drawknife muscles!
So did you ever catch one?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Well, let's just say there was a sequence of multiple catchings, but I still have the original drawknife. ;-)
Bob,
Most new drawknives have a flat side and a bevelled side, whether the blade itself be flat or with a curvature. This is fine and you can use the flat side (bevel up) for hogging off big lumps whilst the bevel side (down) allows you more control and finer cuts, via tipping the bladeedge relative to the workpiece surface that you're cutting.
However, older drawknives often have two bevels and no flat, of variable angle to the blade but also with one or another convex (belly-shaped) radius to the bevel itself. I believe this is called a dub.
When I use one of these (owned by various green woodworking friends) it's noticeable that more control of fine cuts on awkward profiles is possible - once you come to understand how the various bevel angles and the bevel radius works. I can't explain any rules about how they work; practice seems the only way to gain understanding.
I suppose there is still the rule that a flatter bevel is more aggressive whilst a steeper bevel gives more control. But how the dubbing works is hard to put into words. Essentially you use the belly of the dub to control the tilt of the edge into the work, as you actually make the cut.
My own work doesn't need fancy drawknife work so I make do with one modern straight-edged knife and a smaller French one with a curved blade. The latter does have a bevel on only one side but that bevel does also have a very slight dub, rather than being a flat grind. Although the frenchie is a bit harder to sharpen, it does seem to allow more control.
But how can a man making one o' them scuttle legs live without a set of Veritas spokeshaves?!! Git to shoppin'. lad.
Lataxe, lover of the shave.
Edited 6/12/2008 8:42 am ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
The little 6" knife I used has a rounded sole, rounded on the length of the blade the top being flat along its length. The sole allowed me to control the depth of cut, kind of like riding the bevel/sole as one would when turning. Not sure if this is the way the knife was originally made.
These were in a box of old tools that I bought. In addition to the 6" there were two others, 9" and 12" both with flat soles on them. The blades are much larger both in cross section and length. These seem to me like hoggers but the smaller 6" worked very well for me on the scuttle legs.
Just starting to shape the legs:
View Image
I tried another position with the TS to get a better angle; pine prototype in lower left and a Gandy leg (courtesy of Ethan Allen) to prop the workpiece.
View Image
And after refining with a Four in Hand rasp/file and some light sanding.
View Image
They still need more but the process seems to work and appears to be close enough to proceed with the rest of the piece.
Yeah, we made do with what was/is at hand at the moment. You have suggested a LV shave in the past and will at some point get one.
The plate has been overflowing of late and haven't had the time I need to get this thang finished. If you noyiced I didn't make them too curcy for fear of the dogs barking at all hours of the night from those scary shadows. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
If I was one o' yer dawgs I'd be biting on them ankles now! Even in them still pictures I'm sure I saw one twitch.
A spokeshave is a wonderful tool. I got mine initially to shape ladderback chair legs, rungs and slats on the horse, following the larger-scale shaping with the drawknife. Some chairmakers don't bother with the spokeshave stage but a shave is capable of making finer contours, especially if a curve-bladed one is used. I couldn't avoid flats on the round rungs using just a standard-sized drawknife.
The spokeshaves now make all my chamfers, roundovers and other simple edge profiles on my "proper" furniture of every kind. They are not quite as rapid as a router but they do leave a more pleasing finish and effect (slight variations) and can be easily manipulated to avoid tear out and such. Sometimes a router working against the grain is unavoidale and one tears off a Big Spelk, especially with stuff prone to splitting easily, such as oak.
Go on, go on, go on....you know you want some. Git on that Lee Valley website now and think of the time you'll save, the joy you'll get and [that's enough retail corruption via The Opposition for one day - the Lie-Nielsen LV-buying monitor].
Lataxe
Brian Boggs has a video showing how to use a drawknife and spokeshave. Part of it can be seen on the woodworking channel, under the "Lie Nielsen Toolworks" category. That snippet is excellent, and I suspect the rest of the video is also.
http://www.woodworkingchannel.com/dolphin/vidego_video_library.php
Allan,
Thanks for the link.
From watching Mr.Boggs it looks like I have a ways to go. It's interesting seeing his techniques with the d-knife. Now I'd like to figger out the ratcheting mechanism in his shavehorse.
Off to the Lie Nielsen WEBsite I reckon.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I Like the 4 in hand file because the edges are smooth. This feature allows one to round over a tenon to fit a mortise with rounded ends and not harm the shoulder. But for most work like cabriole legs, I prefer the pattern makers files. I own both Nickolson 49 and 50. There really is no signifigant difference between the two. They both make wood disappear very quickly and leave a surface comparable to 40 grit paper.
I've made tons of cabriole legs and I start with the draw knife, switch to spokeshave, refine with pattern makers rasp, switch to finer file, and then sand. I also have a sandrite brush machine that helps sand areas without details that can be ruined by the brush.
Edited 6/13/2008 9:18 am ET by DonC
Hi Don,
Well I'm a neophyte by compasiron to you; I've made a prototype out of pine and the 4 cherry ones I'm working on now make a grand total of 5 for me. :-)
I really like the 4 in hand as the coarse sides are like a rasp with corresponding file sides work really well but I wish there was a longer version of the tool.
From the little experience I've had so far I think if I get better at bandsawing the blanks I can minimize the number of tools to get to a final product. I kick myself as for not buying both the Nicholsons a few years ago at a yard sale, $10 each!
Grrrrrrrr
Tried to find info' on the sandrite but to no avail????? Is it a pneumatic drum sander?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
http://www.sand-rite.com/
Hi Bob,
This model is affordable for the small shop. Incredibily larger machines are available too. They are designed for molding and raised panel doors in a mfg's enviornment. My club took a tour of a "high end" brush/sand mfg. I really like the brush on the Sandrite but seldom use the pneumatic bladder. It's a 5 second job to remove and replace sanding choices on the arbors. It runs very quiet and has lots of muscle. Like any power tool you have to use it carefully so you don't oversand and destroy a profile. The BIG plus is the hours of sanding that can be saved with this machine.
By the way,
I have a couple tang stem files with golf balls for handles. That little sphere feels purty good in your hand too.
Edited 6/13/2008 9:37 pm ET by DonC
Don,
Oh I saw those before but the name didn't click with me.
I'm still road testing a Performax 16/32 and am getting to like it a lot. Methinks some owners when purchasing these machines were anticipating a more robust tool, to sand aggressively with them - NOT!
The Sandrite seems like it would be a good machine for contoured surfaces. It seems that sanding in the woodshop creates the dangerous stuff in the lungs so solid DC is the order of the day for these beasts.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:
I am sure there is a thread on this elsewhere, but the angle of the grind is as important on draw knives as it is on other cutting tools. I have several, ranging from real big ones that I use to remove bark and hog wood, down to a cute little 4 or 5 inch-er that is razor sharp and can deliver real finesse -- more finesse than I am capable of asking it for, sadly enough. They also range from straight to deeply curved.
In any event, I have found that bevel angle makes a big difference to control. Years ago, guy named Drew Langsner wrote a book for Rodale called Country Woodcraft. He had spent a great deal of time working with the old craftsmen in Appalachia and elsewhere, and had learned many of their techniques, which he wrote up in this book. He devoted a few pages to draw knives. His take was that a 40 degree angle is almost useless, and that a 22 degree angle cuts far to aggressively. He prefers 33 degree bevels.
I myself have had pretty good luck with my little one beveled in the 20s (I don't recall exactly). My take is that within the range, you find a bevel that suits your hands and needs -- maybe two or three for differing uses.
BTW it is generally accepted that for any refined work, they are bevel-down tools.
I've never cut myself on them except through carelessness in picking them up. I have never been hurt in use, and neither have the small children I have started out on simple draw knife projects. After all, you do have both hands safely away from the blade. Of course, if you are using your body to brace the wood, and you cut toward yourself, you get what you deserve. That said, some craftsmen who do feel the need to make such cuts make wooden bibs to protect themselves and brace the wood against the bibs. Same concept as a mail glove for an oyster shucker, I guess.
I am such a shave horse would make a huge difference. Someday maybe I'll make one. Never have tried one yet, however.
Joe
Bob I have no idea. I think the folks that make chairs use then all the time!
Maybe a Google search and ask them! As I recall some are made for going with the grain and some across the grain.. As in making that nice hollow fer' your butt!
I have NO idea which is made whatways!
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