Dream Shop – Sliding table saw or Sawstop and cash to spend?
Thanks to an answer to a previous question, I am now even more confused!
I really need a great table saw and only want to buy one. I expect to live another 40 years!
My ambition currently exceeds my talent. I’d love to be able to cut dovetails on the tablesaw for instance but the one I have is just not accurate enough (shallow miter slot precludes the use of an effective sled and there is too much runout on the blade)
Attached is my version of the FWW adirondack chair (Western Red Cedar) which is the sort of thing I like to build, though I’d like to be more accurate.
Fortunately I can now do some extra work and can buy a decent saw.
I have pretty much narrowed the choice of saw down to one of two:
Sawstop professional
Hammer K3 Winner.
The Sawstop will cost me NZD 6500 delivered next week.
The K3 Winner will cost me NZD 10000 delivered but will take 6 months to get.
The key difference for the price:
Top quality sliding table, scoring blade, 4HP motor and 4 inch cut depth on the Hammer vs
Sawstop safety device, two nice miter slots, 3HP motor, 3 inch cut depth.
I would work with ply and laminate occasionally but not enough for the scoring blade to be a show-stopper. I currently have no problems dimensioning ply with a skil saw though the slider would be more accurate.
So, if you could pick a top-quality sliding table saw or a sawstop plus NZD 3500 which would you go for?
I currently have a decent 14″ bandsaw, 8″ planer/thicknesser, Dust extractor, Chop Saw and Router table with a big fat Triton router.
For fun, what machine(s) would you spend the cash on? It’s about USD1800 once you allow for stuff costing more over here. We don’t have much of a second-hand market…
Replies
Hi,
I suppose there are 2 determining factors when buying tools, price and preference. If you're like me and money's a concern, don't be a brand-name snob. Most any machine will do what you want, except overcome operator malfunction, if you read the instructions. And, like most machines, it takes a bit of time to get used to the quirks of your equipment.
On the other hand, with top of the line machines you can expect a greater degree of accuracy and durability that'll last the life of the machine. So, I read the reviews and if the budget allows I go with the higher-priced equipment. "You get what you pay for" is a good rule of thumb.
But like I said, personal preference plays a big part. Hope I didn't muddle things up.
Mikaol
Well,
I've already cast my vote for the sliding table saw. I have the Hammer B3 Winner which is the same model you're considering with the 4hp shaper added. I've already given some reasons for my opinion of the (vastly) superior capabilities of the slider over the Sawstop. I could go on for a long time. The slider has my vote.
Apologies for taking this thread slightly off-course, but, may I ask why you would like to cut dovetails on the table saw? I am very familiar with the method. I even went so far as having a blade ground to use for the purpose. The method is valid and produces excellent dovetails. Yes, the precision of the equipment translates into precise and well-fitting joints. Most of the time. But not always.
Are you in need of producing large quantities of drawers for a cabinet-making business? Because that's what the method is good for.
Can you cut dovetails reliably by hand? I don't want to presume. There are quite a few *excellent* free resources on the Web for learning.
It seems that cutting dovetails is something that frightens people. But it's a very easy joint to master.
Very. Very Easy. It does not deserve the awe-inducing status it has. Not even close.
And hand cutting is *so much faster* than setting up a jig or the tablesaw for the job. It takes quite a while to get everything properly adjusted with any machine. Once a jig or the saw are set up, then yes, for a very large quantity, that's the way to go. But hand cutting is every bit as accurate. And *vastly* more customizable and open to creative freedom.
Being able to do it by hand is very liberating.
I have a project coming up to make 2 hall tables of very simple design. Essentially, slabs of 18" wide, 3" thick, birds-eye maple comprise the sides and top of 5 foot long tables. The joints between sides and top will be (very) large dovetails, which will vary in size and shape across the 18" width and will be the focal point of the design. Cutting them will be no different than if I were making drawer parts and will not be difficult. But impossible to do on a table saw.
Have fun making purchase decisions!
Rich
Thanks
Actually I'm an odd woodworker - I've avoided dovetails for a long time and have only just begun to practice them.
I'm making mike's tea box repeatedly in some cheap mahogany until I can get it just right!
Eventually I want to make medium to large furniture projects.
I have no plans to go into industrial production. I made two of the adirondack chairs and was slow to finish the second (which turned out way better) mainly because I had solved the problems. I could not do the same thing over and over...
I had to make a lot of compromises in technique though and found that even with a good jig I was not able to make truly repeatable cuts with my current item. This led to a less than perfect spline joint for the arms and some compromises on the saddle joints too.
I would go with the SawStop, no question. A sliding table saw is good if you're building a lot with plywood or on a very large scale, for example if you're building lots of kitchens or other built-ins, and working at a high-speed production pace. For a one-person shop focusing on furniture like the chair you attached or even an occasional kitchen, a SawStop is more than adequate, plus while you're learning the safety feature is a good investment.
SawStop saws are excellent, they're made very well, and they are easy to adjust and maintain. It's easy to build a sled that will take care of your 90 degree and angled cuts. You won't sacrifice any quality or functionality and you'll be able to buy more tools! And everyone needs more tools!
You mentioned a planer/thicknesser - I know sometimes the names for these tools are different in different places, but is that like a combination machine that works as both (in U.S. English) a jointer and a thickness planer? If it's JUST a thickness planer or what Fine Woodworking calls a planer, I would recommend buying an 8" or wider jointer with the savings.
On the other hand, if it's a combination machine that does both, a drill press is another good option. Or a lathe, if you're interested in turning? Or invest in really nice handtools, like some excellent sanders, or excellent hand planes. It's fun to dream with someone else's shopping list and budget :)
Good luck in the new shop! Sounds really exciting!
"I would go with the SawStop, no question. A sliding table saw is good if you're building a lot with plywood or on a very large scale, for example if you're building lots of kitchens or other built-ins, and working at a high-speed production pace. For a one-person shop focusing on furniture like the chair you attached or even an occasional kitchen, a SawStop is more than adequate, plus while you're learning the safety feature is a good investment."
This is a basic misunderstanding about the use and operation of a sliding table saw and a basic misunderstanding of the safety afforded by a Sawstop table saw.
The ability to handle sheet goods is a function of the *outrigger table* not the sliding table itself. The saw does not have to be used with the outrigger and most of the time is not.
The sliding table design results in far, far more usefulness than an ordinary cabinet saw. It's chief use is extremely accurate, almost effortless crosscutting as well as standard ripping and straight line ripping. These capabilities are built in.
It's crosscut precision is far beyond what can be obtained with a crosscut sled on a cabinet saw. The sliding table runs on precision roller or ball bearings and has accuracy measured in a few thousandths of an inch. No matter how you make an "after market" cross cut sled, wood, UHMW material or metal runners riding in miter slots have to have enormous slop to be able to move. Such a mechanical design is crude to a laughable degree compared to sophisticated machine design standards.
Straight line ripping - that is putting a reference edge on a piece of rough lumber is easy on the slider. The wood is held at one end in an edging shoe, and at the other with an eccentric clamp and the piece is calmly pushed through *on the left side* of the blade. The operator stands *beside* the work, not behind it as is the normal work position with a cabinet saw. His or her hands are nowhere near the blade. They are *several feet* away. THAT's safety.
Cross cutting is a precise, calm operation. The operator's hands are nowhere near the blade. THAT's safety.
The riving knife moves and tilts with the blade. THAT's safety.
Any board shorter than the total length of the sliding table can be ripped on the left side of the blade, firmly locked down to the table. Easy. No drama, no danger. The operator's hands are nowhere near the blade. THAT's safety.
I can lock a half inch wide board down to the slider with a pair of "Fritz and Franz" clamps and rip feed it though the blade, wasting the 1/8" kerf, leaving two 3/16" pieces with no drama at all, while standing calmly beside the saw simply pushing the handle on the sliding table. That's an unusual operation, granted. But anything even close to that kind of work on a cabinet saw would be a terrifying proposition, if it even were considered.
I could mill a 15mm x 15mm x 15mm cube out of a rough piece of lumber on a slider in less time than it takes to describe it right after straight line ripping a 6' rough 4"x8" oak timber. Safely and calmly. It's that precise, that versatile, that flexible, that strong.
And yes, with the outrigger, handling sheet goods is very easy. And *very* accurate.
The Sawstop is a well-made piece of equipment. But it's still a horrible design from an era (pre-1900) when safety meant nothing and no thought at all had been given to how it should work. It's still just a spinning blade sticking up through a slot in an iron table that says to its operator, "Here pal, you figure out how to accurately and safely control a hunk of wood that has hidden tensions and reactions into a lethal blade that will just as happily cut through muscle and bone as it will oak, maple and teak."
The cabinet saw is a crude anachronism. Most machine design that needs a human operator forces that person to place *both hands* on controls *far* from the knives, punches, blades, spindles and other dangerous parts. Otherwise the machine won't run.
The cabinet saw does the opposite. It *requires* hands to be almost on top of the blade all the time.
So the makers of Sawstop came up with a way to stop the blade if it's touched by flesh (or anything resembling flesh, like a hot dog). And destroy some parts in the process. It's remarkable technology. But it ignores the basic problem. The machine is inherently unsafe and the usual work methods that grew up around it are frightening. They did nothing to change that basic failure of design. Or to improve any of the inherent lack of accuracy of the machine.
The European sliding table saw has seen an entirely different line of evolution. Everything about the machine is aimed at solving the inherently dangerous proposition of high-speed teeth crashing into wood. Safety is the over-arching mandate behind its design and very high precision is a standard feature. The fact that it mostly developed in countries that have a legacy of intelligent equipment design is not surprising.
Rich
Thank you so much.
The planer/thicknesser seems to be a uniquely european thing - you can't easily get them in NZ either. I brought mine out from the UK.
It is as you thought a combination machine with an 8" jointer above and a planer below. It's a good item and wide enough for most things I would do. One day I will try to get a wider planer.
Not sure if you are aware or not but the sliding table option is available for the sawstop. I have the Sawstop 3HP PCS 52” and love it
I own a SawStop PCS and wish I got the B3 or C3 instead. The initial cost of the SS may be lower, but if you want to add a slider and a router table, it will cost more and you will end up with an inferior product.
And please people, can we stop saying SS is safer than a slider saw? It is not! Sliders are the safest way to cut wood. If used properly, there is no way to be involved in an accident. NO WAY. Contrary to the SS which does not protect against kickback, the Hammer does because you are NEVER in the projectile trajectory.
Finally, thinking that a slider is only good for plywood is a big mistake and basically shows lack of knowledge about sliders in general. While it is true that the outrigger table is mostly good for sheet goods, it can be removed and you will still have a very nice slider to do all your crosscut AND ripping. This is the thing most american TS owner dont understand about sliders: you never cut on the right side of the blade! For ripping, you clamp the board on the slider and you cut! This results in a glue ready perfectly straight edge.
Dont get me wrong, the SS is a great saw, probably the best designed table saw you can get. But sliders are superior in every way. While there are few operations that can feel dangerous on a table saw, on a slider there is always a safe and easy way to do a cut and you will need way less jigs.
I do have a A3-31 and when I compare the general finish and build quality, I find the Hammer is a bit superior. The cast iron is WAY harder compared to my table saw wings and perfectly flat compared to the saw stop which has a 0.07" bump.
So if you get a slider, just make sure you consume as much training as you can regarding its operation because if you try to use it like an american table saw, you wont like it.
I would go with the Sawstop & save both your fingers & your money. You can always find ways to cut large pieces or just find a local cabinet shop that will help for a small fee
What configuration of the K3 are you getting for that NZD 10K? Does that include the outrigger and what is the length of the table? I have had a K3 for many years and, for the work I do as a hobbyist making furniture, built-ins/cabinets and renovating my house, I find the outrigger and a 2 meter table crucial to realizing many of the potential advantages of sliding table saws. Specifically, you'll want enough stroke to be able to crosscut wider sheets of plywood (assuming that's part of your workflow) and enough outboard support and crosscut fence length to control and stop block heavy/long workpieces--or else you are back to futzing around more often than you'd like, in much same way as a cabinet saw. Similarly, if you want the option to use the sliding table for some kinds of rips in lieu of the rip fence, or for angle cuts on wider work pieces, a very short stroke is going to substantially constrain you. Maybe that is totally fine if what you do is mostly solid wood stuff at a modest scale, or if you're willing to trade some capability for cost savings (nothing wrong with making that choice, of course). But just be aware that simply having a sliding table does not automatically mean access to all the benefits and capabilities claimed for this type of tool.
I have no experience of using the SawStop other than playing around with a floor model at Woodcraft, so I can't offer any comparison except to say it seems like a really nice execution of the cabinet saw concept. IMO a pro for the cabinet saws is a more robust trunnion than the K3, though this probably doesn't matter much in a hobbyist setting, except in the sense the blade elevation and tilt is easier and smoother than for the K3, especially once sawdust gets in the works.
As for the contention sliding table saws are safer than cabinet saws: yes, maybe, depending on the operation. But there are still plenty of opportunities to put your fingers too close to the blade, including some that are less present on a cabinet saw. For example, due to way the crosscut fence is often configured on the slider, it's a lot more important to use a hold down clamp in crosscut situations involving very short work pieces--situations where fingers could still be reasonably safe with a sled. If you take the time to get the hold down off the shelf and install it (takes maybe 30 seconds but, still, it's an extra step), then you are net ahead on safety. But if you think, as most of are tempted to do every so often, hey, it's just a couple cuts, then the calculus could turn out quite different.
Anyway, bottom line, I bet either choice would work out great for you. For what I do, I am glad I have a small sliding table saw rather than a cabinet saw and I think the K3 represents as good a balance between capability and cost for a hobbyist user as anything out there. Just be realistic that neither is perfect--and appreciative that either should do just fine.
Thanks to all commenters so far - It's 50/50 on the comments! No wonder it's so hard to decide!
if you look at the actual arguments, it is not 50/50. People who are pushing the SS have no experience about sliders while slider users actually know both side of the fence ;-)
I am part of a Felder group and a SS group. I see about one finger saved per week in the SS group but I NEVER SAW any posts about accidents on the felder group. Correctly used sliders are 100% safe to use as long as your cut on the left side of the blade.
Alain,
To be fair, many workers do use the rip fence on a sliding table saw as a . . . well, as a rip fence. And make rip cuts on the right side of the blade.
Proper safety procedure is to ALWAYS set up the rip fence in the short position for *lumber* and to always use push sticks or push blocks.
Sheet material, because it won't distort beyond the cut can be guided with the fence set beyond the mid-blade position. If such pieces are wide, hands will not be near the blade. Push sticks and blocks should also used if the pieces are narrow enough that the operator's hands could be near the blade.
The setup time for ripping with the rip fence is always less than setting up on the slider. And while sometimes it's only a few seconds less, the longer setup on the slider is perceived as an impediment to getting work done. It's silly in hindsight when an injury happens (or just plain stupid, period), but human nature.
You are right, ripping to the left of the blade is safer. While I described acceptable work methods and the machine will do the job, human error is still going to happen. The operator can inadvertently twist the work into the blade resulting in disaster. Clamping the work onto the slider makes all cutting a much safer experience.
Rich
Thanks for sharing at bit of insight AlainPilon! I have a SawStop and trying to make the decision of adding a sliding table saw to my collection and your comment and all the other arguments have convinced me. Sliding table saw is my next purchase (anyone got a used one?).
Rich: the solution is to get pneumatic clamps on the slider. They are an added expense, but they make setup for ripping super fast and ever safer.
Regarding the SS slider, it is unfortunately more of a gimmick than a real slider. It can replace a sled for most operation but read a lot of reviews and see if it fits the kind of project you want to make. I was about to buy one and decided against it. At least for now.
Rob,
To take this discussion in a slightly different direction . . . because this is the point at which you can make such decisions . . .
Before you spend the money . . .
With your bandsaw, and jointer, and a shooting board/well-tuned hand plane (a shooting board is a necessary piece of equipment in *any* shop) you could do anything with lumber that you can do on a table saw. Add a circular saw and a shop-made saw guide and you've got sheet goods covered.
Seriously, before you spend big money on your dream table saw, you can realistically avoid using one. Ripping lumber on the band saw is inherently safer than using a table saw. Very quick to set up. Makes MUCH less noise. A couple of subsequent passes on the jointer and you're done.
Cross cuts on the bandsaw followed by the shooting board and hand plane and you have a better finished edge on the end of that board than any table saw blade will give you.
And using a hand-held circular saw with a saw guide to work with sheet goods is preferred by a LOT of people who have cabinet saws.
There are a lot of people who eschew power tools altogether and do a LOT of productive work. A table saw is not really necessary with the other tools you have.
Just sayin'
Yes, a table saw is often thought as the center of the shop. It's a lot of money. If you have it to spend, it's your decision.
But, then again . . .
You're welcome for complicating the matter ;-)
Rich
Rich4242 provides very good advice; he's clear and unambiguous. The difference between a Saw Stop and a 'real' table saw is huge. I've used both extensively and I can tell you the Felder/Hammer wins hands down. The Hammer with sliding table will enable you to take your woodworking to such a higher level without constructing jigs for almost everything. The Hammer will easily provide you with the ability to be able to cut complex angles for example whereas the SS won't. Spend the extra, you will not regret it.
I,m hoping to tip the scales, I got a slider a couple years back mine is a full slider (106" I think) and I still have my trusty unisaw. ( it's in storage till I get in the new shop) the amount of accuracy from the slider is phenomenal and its so fast. we do about 80% sheet goods so for me the full slider is necessary, but with the hardwoods having the ability for accurate crosscuts and striaghtlining without needing all the jigs that are guaranteed to get in the way and beat up is a complete Boone, when the day comes that I need to replace my unisaw Ive already made up my mind to get a smaller slider like the K-3 because I can see the usefulness of having a "flat front slider" for the tasks that are a bit awkward on my big one, just watch the Tom Mc Laughlin videos here on Finewoodworking and I think you will agree, OH and just my opinion the slider attachment on a Saw Stop is a joke in comparison the real thing.
Agree with rich4242's comments. I'm a hobbyist. I used to own a very good cabinet saw, then a Felder slider, which I loved even though it was far more than I needed. Had to sell off before trans-continental move, to a location without the space for the slider. If I had the space, would get another slider. However, for my purposes now, I can do just about everything I did with the slider with my Festool TS75 EQ tracksaw. Rips 8/4 [50mm thickness for you ANZACs] hard maple without a problem. Another benefit is portability. Takes longer to set up a cut than with the slider, but not a real, issue for my situation. If I were doing production work, I'd have the slider. Much better for sheet goods than a cabinet saw. Track saw or sliderr vs. cabinet saw? Cross-cutting a 4'x8' on a 10" or 12" cabinet saw? Not without accessory supports. Ripping full length? Not a great idea, even with accessory supports. Dovetails - lots of info, videos, written articles online, for doing them with a bandsaw. Same for for DIY router jigs, for your big Triton router. Could also consider a manufactured jig, like a Leigh or Keller.
Thank you all for the helpful and informative discussion.
In the end, I have opted to go for the Hammer machine and make do with my older other machines.
I think the rich comments given deserve an explanation about how the decision was made.
I need absolute precision. I get that I can do everything without a tablesaw, but I'm not happy with lesser degrees of accuracy. The Hammer device and SawStop are very high accuracy devices.
I have very limited shop time so when I do get time, I like to work hard, fast and accurately. The Hammer device wins on this with the 'built in' sled of the sliding table.
I could not live with a lower quality sliding machine - fractions of mm really matter to me.
The Hammer device has a 4" cut. Whilst some of what I will do on it is smaller finer work, the ability to dimension larger timber accurately is useful for my farmlet. Not a clincher, but I've never been happy with the 2" maximum I can get on my DeWalt current saw.
I already stand to the left of the saw, out of the path of kickback when I can so this will not change my work pattern.
I chose a 1250mm slider which is enough to dimension half sheets of ply on the saw but will not get in the way. This is enough for most of what I build using sheet materials. The larger slider was way more expensive.
The Hammer machine allows add-ons. It is possible to purchase the parts to upgrade to any of the optional configurations later. SS is good for this too, but there are fewer options.
The Sawstop has the advantage of a standard arbor, which the Hammer lacks. I had to make sure I could obtain replacement blades before purchasing. Dado sets are 30% more expensive for the Hammer machine (so I have gone without for now)
Safety is vital. I see a lot of near-misses on youtube woodwork videos and can see how the SS has an advantage. I am convinced though that the other benefits of the slider, especially in handling larger pieces outweigh the safety brake on the SS. It's very close.
SS won on country of manufacture - I feel better about US than Austrian on totally irrational principles. I have a US made tractor and some LandPride implements and they are awesome...
SS Won on FWW recommendation. Mike Pekovitch has one...
I can get the Hammer from a local supplier but the SS has to come from further afield. I have bought machines from both suppliers and have no complaints about either.
The logical decision goes with the slider - the slider can handle thicker stock, can joint stock, has similar safety and a more powerful motor. Is it worth the NZD3000 more? In the end, the decision came down to the most stupid reason of all. I simply would not be happy with anything less than the best I could (just about) afford. Dumb but whoever said woodworkers made sense?
Thank you so much to all again.
Rob,
Interesting reasoning for the various parts of your decision.
One worry though - you say you need "absolute precision." I don't think you're going to find that in woodworking. That's pretty hard even in exacting metal work.
If there is any way you can, get a longer slider. The slider is the heart and soul of the machine. You will be somewhat limited by 1250mm. It's possible to refit a machine with a longer table later, but that is *very* expensive.
If you have the option, and if your model normally does not come with the round cross section guide bar for the rip fence, specify you want that. It's slightly more expensive than the rectangular cross section version, but a night and day difference in quality and usefulness.
Make sure the dealer sends a technician to check the setup of your machine on delivery. It's unlikely you have a bar gauge of the quality the Hammer technicians have to align the sliding table with the cast iron table. It's set at the factory, but should be checked at your end, too. They will check and adjust a number of settings.
I'm attaching 2 PDFs to this message that show set-up and and adjustment of the machine. Some items are done once and never need to be reset for years, if ever. Others, such as squaring an outrigger table or a smaller cross-cut fence are something one does every so often as regular machine operation and adjustment. The machine will come with a manual, but none of the important things that are in the PDFs are in the manual! I didn't get the PDFs for several years after buying my machines. And then not until I had complained that I was having trouble getting accurate results. When I confronted my local field support office as to why such needed details were not in the manuals that came with the machine or why no one even mentioned that detailed instructions were available, they told me it was Felder's policy, because they thought owners might screw up their machines if they were supplied with instructions of how to adjust them!
Demand all the manuals and online material that is current.
Get a Oneway Multi-gauge https://www.amazon.com/Oneway-2289-Multi-Gauge/dp/B0002SA98I or a Woodpeckers SG-WP Saw Gauge https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002VRFM9Y/ref=psdc_552474_t1_B0002SA98I . Or a similar tool. They are indispensable for setting up all kinds of machines. Felder advised me to get the Oneway gauge. I got the Woodpeckers gauge. It rides in the sliding table slot and allows easy adjustment of the blade alignment to slider travel (we call "toe-out" in the US, Felder calls it "free-cut."). Both gauges make it easy to also set the "toe-out" of the rip fence to blade relationship.
There are Felder support groups on-line or don't hesitate to ask questions here.
Congratulations and good luck!
Rich
Get the mobility kit!
Rich
Your decision isn't dumb, but I'm biased, having used [and been happy with a cabinet saw] before I got my slider. As a past owner of a Felder slider, I agree with most of rich4242's comments just now. First, "absolute precision" is an unfortunate choice of words. Nothing is absolutely precise. It's just a question of what level of precision you will be happy with. Your Hammer, properly set up, will exceed that. Industrial sliders are used in aerospace manufacturing to cut to tolerances orders of magnitude tighter than needed in woodworking. I disagree with the advice to go with a longer sliding table, unless you think you might be selling the Hammer at some point. A table that can accommodate a full-size sheet will be much easier to resell - that's what a professional cabinet shop needs. However, you'd be paying for something you don't currently need. Also, the longer the table, the more difficult it will be to initially align and keep in alignment. I would strongly recommend getting the scoring attachment. You'll get a much better edge on the down-side of the cut edge. Have the alignment gauge on hand when the Hammer arrives. Won't hurt to double-check the work of the dealer's tech. Also invest in an inexpensive digital caliper to check the dimensions of test cuts. There will be a few of them while setting up. Have the floor as level and solid as possible where the machine will be set. Don;t know if there's a mobility kit for the Hammer, but I wouldn't bother, unless you really need to be able to move it frequently. My experience with the Felder saw was that moving it threw off the alignment of the sliding table. Check the Felder Owners Group on Yahoo for advice on uncrating and assembling the Hammer. One or more buddies with strong backs are good to have for the job. Offer food and beer when the job's done. Same for the tech.
The mobility kit doesn't cause any misalignment problems with the saw. I have to move my equipment out of its "storage" garage (a one-car space) across a driveway and into the 2 car garage where I can actually work every time I want to do anything. It's really indispensable. And it makes getting the saw off its pallet much easier. I don't know how I would have accomplished that without it.
My machine is the B3 Winner with a 79 inch table and the 4hp shaper unit and the whole package weighs about 600 lbs. The K3 Rob is describing won't be that heavy.
The moving bar also moves my A3-31 Jointer/Thickness Planer.
Uncrating the saw can be done by one person. I'm pretty sure the slider will be mounted. But if not, then it will take at least one helper to get things done. One person can do the job, but its a good excuse to have a party.
The reason I recommend a longer slider is that a 1250mm table will limit rip cuts on the slider to about 40-42 inches depending on the clamping method. But Rob has to get what he wants within his budget.
Thanks again especially @rich4242 and @shopfrog
I got a special deal on the Hammer which includes the upgraded fence, 1250 slider, scoring wheel and mobility kit as well as a $800 +tax discount. With a 315mm rip and crosscut blade, 250mm fine sizing blade and scoring blade set it all came to just a whisker over NZD10K so it's a good job it's winter and I can work most weekends to pay for it at the after hours! I'll have the cash by the time it arrives in a few months...probably... I am to be fair quite torn on the longer slider as I do have room in the shop but it would be awkward to walk round. It is not an option to upgrade though - you have to buy a bigger saw and the K3 comfort is just too much cash.
The package is quoted at 300Kg. Fortunately I have some large children who will help install it - If they know what is good for them! They have already drunk all my beer so they owe me...
It will be going onto a concrete floor - the mobility kit is just to ensure I can move it if I have to change the shop round- it will be staying in one place indefinitely otherwise as it is too heavy to move safely otherwise.
I find that the tolerances achievable with a tracksaw are good enough for larger sheet material work. I'm just not happy if I can detect any difference in the length of crosscuts. No matter how invisible it would be in the end, it bugs me and ruins the whole project. The saw can handle longer cuts of course, just has to be used like a traditional cabinet saw so would not be ideal for a pro doing it often.
I know I cannot achieve perfection really. I know that. I just can't feel it.
Rob,
Glad you got a good deal on the equipment.
Here's a silly little piece of advice on the mobility kit. The kit consists of the lifting/pulling bar/handle and a steel axle you will stick through two holes in the heavy-gauge sheet steel of the machine frame. Two nylon wheels with steel collars and setscrews mount on the axel just outboard of the frame where the axel sticks through.
Very simple design. Almost crude when you look at it. Nothing at all like the heavy duty ballbearing casters that come with a Sawstop machine. Not to worry, the design works beautifully.
Utter simplicity is noticeable as a design philosophy in other parts of the machine, also. To the point that looking at various implementations it appears that simple off-the-shelf parts have been used.
For instance, the 6 bolts that precision-position the sliding table in its relation to the blade and cast iron main table are ordinary hardware store stock with several nuts that simply anchor the bolts to the machine frame an one end and position the sliding table at the other. The sliding table itself is an example of high-precision machining and bearing construction but those locating bolts underneath look so, um, "ordinary."
They are, but they are utilized beautifully to accomplish their task.
Back to the mobility kit. That axle and the nylon wheels do their job just fine. I've had my machine since 2007, have moved it almost daily since then and have never, ever had a whisper of a problem . . .
EXCEPT . . .
The axle is under the machine, out of sight and out of mind . . . and it RUSTS! And once it does, it's hard to get at to deal with. So give it and the wheel collars a good coating of paste wax or Boeshield T-9 or whatever you like to use to inhibit rust before you install it. And keep an eye on it.
And now that I've mentioned that, care for the surface of the cast iron table also. A can of paste wax is indispensable in a shop.
Have fun.
Rich
Just saw this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEooLHUThCU
Watch starting at 6:10 . . .
Felder now has non-destructive technology to deflect the saw blade down into the machine should it touch a body part. After it has retracted it can be brought back up and just resume cutting. No damage to the mechanism. They say it retracts "at the speed of light." Just a bit of hyperbole there.
Not only do they demonstrate with a hot dog, but an operator lets the spinning saw blade touch his finger!!!! It instantly disappears. Not a scratch!
The shocked disbelief that the guy took that chance and the relieved combinations of looks on the faces of the observers are priceless. The announcer quips, "Innovation requires courage!"
Ya think?!
This is shown on their high-end Format line. Probably not available on lower models like the Felder line itself or Hammer. But who knows? God only knows what this system costs!
Rich
Probably more than my whole saw!
Hi Rob,
was it from Jacks that you sourced the Hammer?
- i'm in NZ also, and looking at options... anything you got / didn't get that you wish you had changed on your order?
- are you happy with the kit?
Hi Pete
The beast only just arrived. Apart from the wait the service was acceptable. yes, I got it from WR Jack. They were very helpful and patient with helping me place the order and make a few changes after. I have not had much time to use it yet but have given a few points that I have noticed already. Hope this helps. Bear in mind the limited experience of the machine so far.
It is a big beast. Takes up the same space as a full sheet of ply on the floor with the tables and you need 1200mm fore and aft to use the slider. I'd recommend 3m behind, 1.2m for the saw and 2.4m in front so you can use it to cut full sheets.
If I had my time again, I'd not change much.
Don't forget to allow $130 for some 5" hose and extra for delivery. I paid for someone else to risk dropping it, and with a tail lift and pallet jack, delivery was easy. Unless you have a forklift, get someone to deliver for you. Cost me only $100 but I am only 20Km from the store.
Good points:
Awesome machine. VERY powerful 3 inches of vic ash? Is there any wood there at all? Barely notices even tough cuts like that. If the cut speed is right, with the new blades I get a better finish than my planer (twin blade 8 inch)
Cast iron table is dead flat.
NO vibration or wobble. None. It's rock solid.
With the scoring blade and a backer piece on the fence, there is no tearout at all even in notoriously splintery vic ash.
Sliding table is slick
Love the mobility kit - really easy to move it around when needed for longer stock.
Dust collection is fantastic but you need a 5" hose. My low end Jacks sucker works fine.
Very easy to set up the fence measures for precise cuts. Buy the better fence that you can get for the K3 Winner.
Really easy to change blades.
Fingers are well out of the way of blades at all times.
Great riving knife
Really good top guard - easy to take off quickly if you have to, quick to put back so encourages use.
Fence and stops are top quality (I got the upgrade to the cast iron fence - the bar weighs about 10Kg) Fence goes out to 1.3m so able to dimension full sheets albeit not on the sliding side.
Niggles:
Finish is very good, but not perfect. It's a machine though, not a toy so I'm sweet.
As accessories go, it comes with only the crosscut fence. I had to make a Fritz and Franz to go with it.
I'm not totally convinced that the slider and blade are absolutely aligned but I have no means to test it yet. It's very close, but I'm not handing out the banana just yet. I'll be following the advice in the posts above.
The crosscut fence was not accurately set up. At least 1/4 degree off. Locking the stops is not easy as tightening the screws that hold them always moves the damned things.
Needs a 20A power supply and does not come with a plug so make sure your sparky sells you the plug too.
Nightmare to put together. If Felder made toys there'd be a lot of suicidal parents on Christmas Eve. Instructions in German or just diagrams and many of the parts come configured one way but needed to be changed to suit my device. The mobility kit had to be installed onto the base which is not easy as the thing weighs 300Kg. Wedges and a lever were needed. A car jack was needed to install the front feet.
At least they provide instructions on how to get it off the pallet. Not easy to do alone but with a helper it was safe enough.
Need Felder blades but they are fabulous quality and so well worth it. Thode Knife and Saw say they can machine any other blade I want to fit it.
I'll write a full review when I've used it enough not to feel an idiot later and post here and on Woodworkers of New Zealand Facebook page.
Thanks again to all on this forum who helped inform the decision - I'm happy with the choice.
Hey Rob,
I ordered my Hammer K3 last week. I didn't take the scoring blade option, but after reading this post I'm hesitating. I still have time to add the option from my Hammer reseller.
As far I understand, the scoring blade is use for melamine or plywood. But what bout the others, like hardwood or MDF, are you keeping it or take it off? Does it help for any wood tear-out, like a zero clearence insert?
Thank you
E.Durand
Nantes, France
Monsieur Durand, I have had the K3 Winner for a couple years now and am really happy with the saw but I did not get the scoring blade option; a decision I now regret as sooner or later we all need to work with material that would benefit from this device. Also, my saw did not come standard with a drive shaft that will accept a dado head. I had to order this extra after I realized that the dado set I wanted to order would not work with the current shaft (Forrest Blades in the USA sells dado blade sets for the Felder/Hammer saws). Your saw may have this option but if you will want to have this it may be helpful to check. I think you also need this special shaft if you go with the Hammer cutter setup. Also, Rich4242 in an earlier post, has provided some interesting documentation on equipment tuning and adjustment. This is really helpful as I guarantee you will have questions and/or things that require ‚adjusting‘ (Thanks Rich4242). I live in Switzerland and work with the Swiss distributor when I have questions. They have been pretty good with technical advice as well. I hope you will be as happy with your saw as I am with mine. I am doing more now with rough lumber and the sliding table is superb for both ripping and crosscutting. I have the 2 meter table and bought the accessory that allows me to build a plywood sled to extend my ripping capabilities to 3 meters. I am using this more than I thought I would, especially for the laminated hardwood material you can buy here. Happy woodworking.
Maybe we'll hear from the OP (from over a year ago) to find out what he decided to do. He has certainly been using his new saw for at least 6 months.
I love the SawStop saw. I would have bought that saw even if it didn't have the blade stop technology. It's accurate, easy to use, easy to maintain, powerful and well built. And to throw some more mud in the water, for US$1200 you can get a sliding table from SawStop.
One thing I would like to add to this thread, have had a Hammer 79x48 for a few years, and have never used the scoring blade, because the first thing I bought for the saw was a set of blades from Carbide Processors, some Tenryu blades, including a 12" rip blade, and a 80 tooth crosscut blade, and an 80 tooth plywood blade. These blades cut so well, do not need the scoring blade on hardwoods, and I hardly use plywood, except for drawer bottoms and backs of projects. Like the long slider for longer boards, but could almost have gotten by with a 49" slider. I straight line my solid lumber with the saw, as all my lumber is rough sawn. BTW, I kept my old Unisaw when I purchased the Hammer K3. Handy to be able to use the old Uni when I have the wrong blade on the Hammer.
IMO a true sliding saw is a production machine. They have huge footprints which is a major factor for a hobby shop.
You can't go wrong with the SawStop. The have an excellent sliding table attachment, but personally I would us the money for a track saw.
I am waiting for the delivery of a Hammer K3 Comfort saw. I picked it up at the LV woodworking show. Talking to the technician in the booth, he said to lower the scoring blade when not cutting sheet goods so as to not dull the scoring blade.
I have the Felder K745 9' slider, and I should have bought it years ago. First, the Slider-format is much much safer than a traditional cabinet saw - your body and hands are nowhere near the blade or line of cut. It does take up more total space than a cabinet saw, but not as much as you think.
@user-91690, @farmfromkansas, @kjwells54 : Thank you for your answers
I called the french technical service and they told me that I could buy the scoring unit as spare part. They also told me that it will very difficult (not impossible) to mount it because I will need to access to the iron cast underside.
As user-91690 said, I don't want to regret this option, so I'm taking it.
Thank you again for your answers
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