Hey All,
Mike has inspired me to start this thread. Mike loves his cordless impact gun for driving screws and I suppose drilling holes. I contend that they are noisy, second rate alternatives to a good drill/driver and that few are in use. Anybody care to weigh in?
Best,
John
Replies
I dont think that anyone would sujest that you choose one or the other. Impact drivers make poor drills as they will snap smaller bits and dont turn larger bits effectively. First get a good 18 volt drill/driver then get a 12 or 14 volt impact driver for fasteners. I dont think there is any debate that an impact driver is the better screw driver. The only down sides are a short learning curve (not over driving the screw) and the louder operation noise.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
John,
For the most part, I agree with Mike. However, I would choose a 14.4V drill and 9.6V impact driver unless you buy them as a set. That's what I use - the drill drills pilot holes and the impact driver sinks screws. Just ease up on the trigger when your screws are close to flush and "pulse" the trigger to set the screw. On the same note, Panasonic offers an impact driver (actually 2, I believe) which features a built-in clutch, similar to what is found on a drill/driver. I got to play with one of these last week at a woodshow and was impressed with their power but found that the clutch didn't have enough settings. At one setting, the impact driver would leave the screw proud by about 1/8" and at the next it would drive the screw 1/8" below the surface.
Within the last week-and-a-half, I heard about a new type of impact driver that uses oil (or maybe that's oil cushioned) to provide the impacting action instead of the traditional anvil and hammer mechanism. This is supposed to be much quieter and that I would believe. Makita's model BTS130RFE http://www.makita.co.nz/products/detail.lsd?item=BTS130RFE features this design... haven't actually tried it yet, but can't wait. Panasonic plans to release one within two years as well.
This new quieter technology is all good and well, but sometimes I feel the only reason I use my impact driver is to make some noise.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
Hi ho Flairworks,I note the they quote 30nm of torque on that unit,something wrong there,usually more like 130 nm on a 14.4 volter.
I just love my impact driver,which by the way I learned of on here,I use it to make cabinets and have even made an internal wall in my workshop joining 4x2's and its great.
I have 4 drills and 1 impact.
"I contend that they are noisy, second rate alternatives to a good drill/driver and that few are in use"
Noisy-yes
second rate alternative- no
I've been doing a lot of cabinet installs- I wouldn't want to be without it. imho it's a lot more effective at driving most screws than a driver/drill. Twice the torque in a tool thats smaller, lighter and more comfortable. It's no substitute for a driver/drill- if I could only have one it would be a driver/drill but with some of the deals going around you don't have to. My Mak 14.4 NiMH drill/ impact set cost little more than the driver/drill alone.
few are in use- on the jobsites I've been on almost everyone seems to have an impact driver.
For a shop setting you're probably right. For the amount of screws I use my 9V cordless and if needs be my old craftsman corded drill. For drilling the job is evenly split between my drill press and the cordless...
That said for the more construction projects I do the impact is the best. For the few installs I've had to do I wouldn't have gone without it.
Even though they have overlapping functions they excel at different things.
Not to be a contraian, but if you are doing woodworking in a shop, a corded exrta heavy duty (1000 rpm, triple gear reduction) positive clutch screwgun will be the smoothest, lightest tool to use. And you have great control in driving the screw with a balanced machine.
When the tool manufacturers introduced their battery impact drivers, I spoke to Black & Decker and Milwaukee design engineers. Both firm's engineers agreed that the corded machine is far superior, but that's not what the public wants. And the drill/drivers are only a compromise - they really give little control in running a screw and they are weak drills.
Well, I guess I'm glad I've inspired *something*! LOL
Bullseye on me loving the impact driver for driving screws. But, I never tried drilling a hole with one, though I'd be willing to give it a try. (I guess I could do that without buying a chuck since I have a few twist drills with a 1/4" hex shank. Heck, that's tonight's fun project.)
Noisy, but not as noisy as most of the power tools I use, like power saws, planers, DW guns, etc. And definately not as loud as heavy metal music! ;-)
As for the number in use, I'd guess it's a pretty large %age, and growing. And more so in construction than cabenetry. Try this Q over at breaktime and my hunch is that a large majority of folks there own and use 'em.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
John, we all have several or many planes for different tasks and I took the same tack with the drills.
-If I had to do 1" cores in poured foundations all day it would be with a big HILTI, but I don't so I picked up a wired 1/2" HITACHI hammer drill for $59 when ww warehouse closed.
-Heavy drilling and driving is a PC 19.2V for #'s 8,10---16 and it was so good with the 2amp hr batt that I picked up the hammer/drill model from cpo as a never ran rebuilt and it is great. ie. drilling auger holes (the torque wrecked my wrist and nearly flipped me off a ladder when the auger snagged), driving 4 and 6" lags in 2x8 skirt to 4" treated posts to tie all the posts (elevated deck and staircase) together, to loosen the machine screws holding the main pad on a Metabo 6" ROS-two guys with good screwdrivers could not crack it loose but two gentle taps from the hammer drill --a piece of cake. They ARE heavy but their clutch chuck is fantastic. Hole saws are no problem if I don't use my old wired Milwaukee 1/2" hole shooter
-Heavy special use is a QUICK DRIVE I used to tie down 600 sq.ft. of 3/4 t&g ply sub floor prior to installing oak hard wood flooring, and tighten down a 53' porch and the 12x18 deck. I have the DEwalt head but if you will use it a lot get the pro kit with the Makita head. It is also great for an old man like me with it's drywall head for over head use.(I get the young fellers to hold the rock)
-Medium drilling and driving #'s 4--8, Makita wired electronic drywall screw gun, DeWalt 14v, Ryobi 14v.
-light duty box hinges locks and interior hinges, lock strike plates and electrical hardware mounting etc. Makita 6v battery in handle, Ryobi 7.2v that I needed a new battery for is no longer sold but they were selling off the driver with a battery and charger in a plain cardboard box for $9.99 so I bought two more. I will probably rebuild these batteries with replacement cells available from big time model aircraft radio control supply sources. NOTE; If you do this try to get cells with a tab spot welded to each end to avoid overheating the cell when soldering them in place.
-Extra light duty, use a proper screwdriver or those $6 palm size 3.6v toys sold at Wallmart with a Velcro holster and a strip case of driver bits, they are real handy for taking apart electronics, toys, appliances etc.
I guess that about covers most bases. All the best, Paddy
I install 40+ kitchens/year, and build several to boot, and my choice is a tandem attack: 14.4v drill/driver for pilot/countersink drilling and 14.4v Makita impact for driving. I have had success at drilling small holes with the impact, but haven't tried larger bits or holesaws. Whether you work wood professionally or just as a hobby it won't hurt to have a couple different drills & drivers.
Count me in with the others who use an impact driver for driving screws. A driver-drill is a distant second for this chore.
On the other hand, an impactor is no good for drilling holes. But I use a corded drill for all my hole drilling. Portability isn't really an issue, as most by drilling is pocket holes and I have a dedicated work area (with corded drill) for this job.
Pondfish,
"On the other hand, an impactor is no good for drilling holes."I wouldn't be quite so absolute. I agree that an impact driver isn't quite as good at drilling, but I'm not sure how much better it has to be. If its a matter of carrying one tool or two to where I'm working, I'll take my impact driver and slip in a hex drive drill bit when I need to drill. It does the job. If I've got lots of holes to drill, I'll take my corded drill and save the batteries for impacting screws.
Bill
Well, well, I AM surprised! Certainly a lot more yays than nays for the impact gun. I didn't expect that at all. I though that you people had better judgment than that! I AM KIDDING! I did like the idea about the oil filled impact gun, as any noise reduction is good. I am still not convinced about an Impact gun over a drill driver, but there are enough folks whose opinion I respect that have weighed in that I may revist the idea. If nothing else, should I see one on a job again, I won't ask if they just use that for changing flats.
Best,
John
Edited 10/26/2007 6:16 pm ET by Jmartinsky
just finished a deck made of trex that had over 3500 3 1/2 " screws to be put in
we used a rigid impact driver plus a bosch drill driver iniatially
the end result was we put in about 5 to 10 screws using drill driver and stripped the heads on three of those so we concentrated on the rigid id which seemed to be overheating so as a result i drove 25 miles to hd and bought a bosch id
even using 2 batteries fo each we still had to let the batteries cool for a 1/2 hour before recharging
a drill driver will not beat a id for continous driving of large screws because for one thing ids seem to grab the head of the screw with out excessive pressure needing to be exerted to maintain contact
you do need to wear a pair of earmuffs to cut the noise down when using a id cotiuiously
here we go to hd and get a new tool to try it out and have up to 30 days to be satisfied or we can take it back and get all of our money back if we are not satissfied
so why rent to try out a new tool
bybthe way 3500 screws is a lot hours on a id & if that isent a test of a id what is ?
Dear Dude,
That's a pretty good testimonial. I guess the two things that come to mind are :1) You were using philips head screws?2) In a similar application, I think that I would of switched to something corded. Best,John
robertson excuse me
Dear Dude,
I'm surprised that you were getting cam out with a square, but it's cool that you found something that you like. How did you decide to go with an impact gun?John
i heard raving about impact drivers on breaktime so i bought one but never had to really use one till i took on a large deck ( house 900 sq ft deck 800 sq ft multy leveled and numerous angles
pre drilled all holes in trex and then screwed for days ( sub deligated it to helper )
he liked the bosch the best as lighter than the rigid
Dude,
My suspicion is that you were using deck screws which, if you look closely at the socket, is partially filled in with what appears to be the coating. I bought a whole box of them and the only way to drive them and not have the R2 bit cam out constantly is to step down to a R1. I think that it's the fault of the screws and not the bits or drill or impact driver.
By the way, some screws, namely Kreg pocket hole screws, fit a R2 bit so well that I can (and have) drive a screw into the ceiling and, leaving the tip engaged, suspend my entire impact driver from the screw. I won't recommend it, but it is true.Chris @ flairwoodworks
"I bought a whole box of them and the only way to drive them and not have the R2 bit cam out constantly is to step down to a R1."
McFeely's sells undersized R2 bits specifically for driving coated deck screws.
-Steve
Anybody know the difference between a hammer drill and an impact drill.
Whoa! Nothin' like digging up an ancient thread! But anyhow, I'm not sure what you're asking, so here's some general info:
Drills: They make a bit (drill bit, screw driver bit or hex socket) spin around. Depending on the model, they can also make it spin forwards, backwards, fast, slow or any combination of these. Some may also incorporate a "clutch" that slips so the user can control the upper torque limit applied to the bit/driver.
Impact Drivers. They spin a bit (usually a screwdriver or hex head socket, but some use them for drill bits as well) around. However, the do it by applying torsional impacts -- think of putting a wrench on a tight nut and then whacking the handle of the wrench with a hammer to help loosen the nut. They spin forwards, backwards, fast or slow (but not with as much control as a drill). They generally don't have clutches. They'll just keep driving to the maximum rated torque. They are a lot easier to use with, e.g., phillips screws without the bit torquing out of the screw head. Similarly powered impact drivers will drive screws with far more force that a drill. A screw driven with an impact driver will generally just keep going until you let off the gas. You have to be careful not to overdrive screws when using these.
Hammer Drills: A drill with an extra. In hammer mode, these will cause the bit to oscillate in and out just a little bit while drilling. This is useful for occasional drilling smaller holes in masonry or the like. Used with masonry bits, they sort of "pound" into the hole as well as drilling conventionally. Not generally used for driving screws or nuts in the hammer mode, but, in the drill mode, may be -- but not particularly effectively.
Rotary Hammer Drills: Make a drill bit go around and/or in & out. These are the next step up from hammer drills. Bosch Bulldog (SDS drills) and Hilti are popular brands. These tools let you drill like a regular drill, hammer drill like using a hammer drill on steriods (really -- a whole 'nother level of drilling power) for quickly drilling through concrete, or chip, like a mini-jackhammer. The "in & out" motion of these tools is a lot more than a hammer drill, but less than an air chisel or jackhammer. These are the tool of choice for drilling rock, brick, concrete or the like. Make this job almost as easy as drilling wood with a regular drill. They take special bits with keyed chuck-ends, so they can lock into the drill -- don't know if they make anything other than masonry bits and chisels -- I've never seen one anyway. Kinda expensive, but when you consider what they do, really they're pretty cheap.
Hope that does it for ya.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
A hammer drill rotates and adds a bump or bit travel parrallel with the tool. aiding in the drilling speed. These are used in hammer mode only to drill with in masonry or concrete.
An impact drill or driver rotates and adds an impact in the direction (perpendicular to the tool) of the rotation when a sufficient torque need dictates.
I agree with other posters an impact is great for driving long screws or any screws. One thing though they due turn at a slightly higher rpm than regular cordless drills. However they offer an increase in torque which translates to easier driving of screws without the wrist wrenching you often get whith regular cordless units. Their weight is also considerably less than most cordless drills, adding to user comfort.
Impact drivers have no three jaw chuck like drills instead they have a ball detent 1/4 inch hex drive. Many bits are now available with 1/4 inch hex shanks. Also I know that both Makita and Dewalt offer 1/4 inch hex drive three jaw chucks for their impact drivers.
Unlike other posters I have had reasonably good results drilling both small and larger holes with an impact. Small holes either with hex shank drills or regular drills in the three jaw chuck adapter. Larger holes with either the three jaw or a hex shank spade bit.
Hope this helps.Webby
Thanks chaps.
The test for understanding is,could I explain to someone else how these things work.
In my case the answer is no,I have copied both explanations and will study,thanks again.
the cam out was with the drill driver not the impact drivers
of the 3500 + screws we found about 6 that had misshapen heads
i have previously used a driver drill to put in screws on pt lumber decks
the new acq lumber seems to be tougher to screw into especially when going through trex using the screws meant for trex they arent the same as deck screws
Here in Texas, the summers are so hot that we have to wait 30+ minutes for batteries to cool as well. I keep the charger inside and elevate it so air can circulate under the charger. We have also placed the hot batteries near AC vents where they could catch the cool air.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I was building a second story deck about 6 years ago and used my Bosch 14.4 with square drive for about 3500 screws. Never missed a beat, work perfectly and with two batteries I had to plan a break, as they kept going just fine.
If I were to do the same job today I would probably buy the impact driver. Why? Because they make them and I can't pass up a chance to buy another tool. No other reason for me. Just another excuse to be a tool whore.
I'm now in a new location and new decks are planned for next year, sooooo........time to go shoPPing :-). What brand should I buy?...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Dear Old,"If I were to do the same job today I would probably buy the impact driver. Why? Because they make them and I can't pass up a chance to buy another tool. No other reason for me. Just another excuse to be a tool whore."Apparently an honest soul! Not knowing much about the impact guns. I hope that others more qualified will chime in. I guess if it were me, I would be looking for a reliable unit that is reasonably light. I like the Makita drill/driver, so I think that I might start there. Best,John
Dearest J,
I know more about impact guns than I will go into here. Everything from a 1/4" to 1" in a heavy industrial environment (steel and heavy vehicle assembly). All pneumatic, I'll admit. But, yes, I know the value and capability. I just have not had the need for one as yet.
regards,
bum...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
<<Just another excuse to be a tool whore>>If you're the one buying, wouldn't you a tool John?Mike
You're right, assuming that context. My DW thinks I'd do ANYTHING for a new tool, though.
Wait a sec. That doesn't sound right, now does it? :-)
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
OBB-
I have the Makita 18v Li-Ion model. This came as part of a cordless kit. It sells solo for $300, which is steep. You can get the white Makita for about $200. As far as my opinion goes, it's the best impact driver available now.
My .02.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Thanks for the headsup. I'll start scouting things out now that you folks have mentioned some preferences and why. Makita sounds like the place to start. I need (?) one. I also willl be looking for a 23 ga. pin nailer. Lots of use for that in the near future....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
"I contend that they are noisy, second rate alternatives to a good drill/driver and that few are in use".
I use mine all the time to run in 3" wood screws, Tapcons, and the like. But I'm a professional. I have a Makita 18V Lit/Ion impact gun and love it. Now I only use my cordless drills for running small fasteners and drilling with countersinks.
If you're of the hobbiest variety then maybe you only need a good cordless drill.
Dear UBC,
No hobbiest here. Twenty years in the business. Thirty more and I can retire. I am surprised at the responses. I'm glad folks have found tools that they like, but I really don't see them being used and I personally see no need for them. That's my opinion. I MIGHT consider them for tapcons, but then again, I don't use tapcons, so to each their own. I'm finishing up an Ipe dace now and have sunk maybe 100 legerlocks ranging from 4" - 8" with my 18v Makita compact gun with zero complaints. It just does it. I don't need the extra noise, or the extra tool to put away at the end of the day. Maybe I'm crazy, it wouldn't be the first time, but I'll stick with the drill/driver. Hey, I was made fun of for switching to square drives ten or so years ago.............Best,John
Everybody likes the square drives. If they are so good, why don't they crowd out the phillips for drywall screws.
"Everybody likes the square drives. If they are so good, why don't they crowd out the phillips for drywall screws."
Ah, but with drywall screws, you want the driver to cam out as the screw head just begins to dimple the surface of the paper (when you're actually installing drywall, that is). You can get drywall bits with a sort of collar that causes the bit to cam out automatically as the screw reaches the correct depth.
-Steve
Being a trim carpenter on new homes I install a lot of cabinets and a fair amount of railing systems. I would be lost without my 18v Dewalt impact. It is small compared to a drill so I can get inside the cabinets to screw them together. I do not have to push on the screw to keep it from stripping the philips head.[ which also meens I don't stab myself with the philips tip when it cams out] I can drive anything from drywall screws to timber screws with ease. I now use my drill for what it was designed to do drill holes !!!
Steve hit the nail on the head. Squares are not so good when it comes to drywall for the very reason that he sights. Bostich made a selfeeding drywall gun about ten or fifteen years ago that used square drives. It was very tough to get the setting right because the screws didn't want to let go of the tip. With plywood, depth of drive is not so critical, but for drywall, it was tough.Best,John
Thanks, Steve and John,
I am installing drywall in my new shop as we speak. I have wondered why the square is not used. I have a problem though. My shop has ten foot walls and I am having a hard time getting those pesky Phillips screws in far enough. Not enough to hold to to get pressure on them. I try putting my ladder a ways out and leaning into them. That sort of works.
jOHN, it looks like Quick-Drive thinks the same way. Their deck screws are square drive but their drywall screws are phillips and they put a free bit in the case of screws of either type. These screws are strip fed and I think that the agressive thread on the deck type, at speed, pulls it out of the reach once it reaches the countersink depth that you set. Paddy
Dear Paddy,
That seems to be the route most are going. I use a PAM (German made) gun for auto feed screws. The drywall gun uses philips and the flooring gun uses squares. Senco uses the same system. It works pretty well. I don't find the drywall gun to be all that useful, but the flooring gun is outstanding.Best,John
I am definately a builder full time to pay for my woodworking, and I agree with the impact guys. On most of my jobs the radio nearly drowns out the extra noise, and my love for the impact falls to the fact that my elbow has not ached since the beautiful day that I first picked that little non twisting guy up. Square drives? Ever heard of torx? I've had the same driver bits for two years of constant use? Not bagging on the non impactor, still use it daily as well.
John
Dear John,
I'm all for torx drives, they are still pretty rare around here (CT), where they seem to be used for machine work rather than woodwork. There is one type of "timberlock" that uses a #3 torx head. It holds nicely. You mention two years on a drive tip. I probably get a year or so out of a square drive. They never wear out on me, they always end up snapping off. Usually at a less than opportune moment!Best,John
You lot are so lucky re prices,look at the price I have to pay for 18v Makita..........
http://www.thetoolshed.co.nz/products2/?op=viewDetails&pid=2436
Dear cicero
I was just researching Makita and check out www. tools plus .com
Hammer drill- driver and Impact Lxt for 327.00
Dear potomac,I am in NZ so there lies the problem.
I was just wondering today while working what other folks were using across the country. I am in Montana now, but got hip with torx several years ago in Jackson, Wyoming. Everybody I know uses them out here, with every length and size imaginable. They even make kick but trim head screws that go in every time without the usual dreaded snap sound. I have been sneeking these in even the most dense of hardwoods. (Predrilled with a non impact drill, you might like to know) As you well know, not every screw or nail is of the same quality, and there are a ton of crappy ones out there I have tried, mostly to save money. Only one local yard carries them, and I go there mainly for these, as everything else is so expensive. The only squares I use are mainly pocket screws, when I need the fat head or am pocket holing sills on or other misc. apps. Sguares are far better than phillips, torx being far superior to both in my humble opinion. I cringe when I see the phillips and only use when sheet rocking which I will do almost anything to get out of. There is a saying in montana, "your a carpenter huh, got your shovel" What does being carpenter where you live really mean?
John
I love my new Makita... Bought it a month ago and went home and drove 6 pounds of 1 3/4ths inch square drive screws into my floor to desqueek it before installing hardwood. I actually drove about 15 pounds of screws but I say 6 because it drove 6 pounds of screws on one charge! I could not believe it. I also have found the led to be very handy. That being said and out of the way... dewalt has come out with some new driver bits... I have no idea what they are made out of (solid carbide?) they are black and I cannot break them. They rock... I broke #2 Phillips off regularly before I found these little beauties. Only had them for 3 weeks but put them through the paces and there is nothing comparable out there. (in bits, the makita was enough lighter and better than my old dewalt and rigid tools I gave my old ones to my dad and got the new set.)Drew
I can't for the life of me see how the advantage of the impact can be missed,so I am with you there UBC.
When I have a lot of screws to apply,I think here come a bit of pleasure,seeing it work so well.
Ahh yes. The sweet sound of my Makita as it effortlessly drives those 3" screws.
UBC, do you use any special 'impact' bits or regular drill bits?
Thanks,
Marty
nothin' fancy just regular bits.
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