Replies

1. 
   Adrian | Aug 22, 2003 03:59pm | #1

   IMO, you should be looking at Woodmaster rather than any of the machines you mentioned.

   Have you seen what comes out of a drum sander? There is a 'scratch' pattern along the length of the material....you may find that as objectionable as planer marks, and it would still have to be random orbit sanded away.....the drum sander speeds the process, but for most purposes, the material coming out of the sander is not yet ready to hang on the wall. For me, anyway.

   cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
   

1. 
   riverr1 | Aug 23, 2003 02:15am | #5

   Scratch pattern? Glad I don't own the sander you must.

   Don

1. 
   Adrian | Aug 23, 2003 05:06pm | #12

   They all have a scratch pattern, period, and that's the term used in industry......I've had several smaller ones (including the Performax you mention later, which I hate)  used them in manufacturing, and I spend a lot of time in plants that are using the big ones costing 100-200K or more. I usually end up talking a good bit specifically about sanders with the production managers. I've also been under the hood with technicians on the big ones at the big show in Germany....drum sander or widebelt, cheap or expensive, if the belt is revolving in one direction (as it has to), you are going to get a scratch pattern along the length of the material.....it cannot be avoided, the only thing you have control of is the size/depth of the scratch, and how visible it is going to be. Using umpteen grits is not an option in industry. So, unless you want to go to one of the new orbital  (http://www.timesaversinc.com/showspecs.asp?mat=Wood&id=13) machines, or something like a Heeseman that has a cross sanding belt (http://www.heesemann.com/english/index.html) ,and you don't want to even think about the money involved there, you're going to get the longitudinal scratch.

   Whether you can go straight from a sander to finish or install depends on your standards and your application. For flooring or something like that, often you can. For furniture and cabinets, and in my opinion most 'finish' type applications, usually you can't (in part because you also usually have cross-sanding scratches on frames, doors etc to get rif of), unless you have one of the cutting edge machines. 90% of the plants I go into have a big machine that is doing the grunt work of removing mill marks, and a department where they have people ROS away the scratch from the sander.

   So, what I'm saying is....if you are thinking about using a sander to speed up your work, you better see what comes out of one before you drop the money.....you may not get the result you think you are going to get, and you may (probably) will still end up doing some sanding by hand. If I was in the position of the original poster here, as I think I remember the situation, I would probably look in my area to see who had the biggest, baddest sander on the block, and rent time to do my material, or at least see what the reuslts look like....and resign myself that if the only finsih you can tolerate is what you get off a handheld ROS, then that's where you're going to end up.

   edit: the Heeseman link is supposed to open to a page in the 'technology' section, which shows their approach to cross sanding.

   cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

   Edited 8/23/2003 10:08:55 AM ET by Adrian

1. 
   riverr1 | Aug 23, 2003 08:03pm | #13

   Adrian,

   Since you addressed this to me, I assume you are speaking to me, and then I have to think you did not read all of what I wrote. Oh well. By your logic then, all sanders, including a piece of snadpaper on a block of wood, has a scratch pattern. The nature of abrasives, and can't be avoided. Now, does my machine leave some jump in your face scratch pattern? Nope, not at all. Used properly by going through the grits, and it is no more "noticeable" then an ROS. If you're looking for scratching, you're gonna find them.

   Yep on the high dollar machines also. A couple of friends of mine recently spent around 100k on a German made wide belt sander. 3 belts I believe, computer controlled, and lots of bells and whistles. Waste of money in my opinion. Lousey finish by my standards for that money. But they are supplying cabinet doors to a company that does makeovers on kitchen cabinets, and they like the machine so I guess that's all that matters. Bottom line to me though is that many big dollar, high production machines, regardless of price, don't impress me at all. Many of the smaller, home or small shop machines are actually better imo.

   Don

   Edited 8/23/2003 1:36:40 PM ET by Don C.

1. 
   Adrian | Aug 24, 2003 02:54am | #15

   Don;

   Yes, I was addressing you, in your post to me about "not wanting my sander" or however you phrased it....it seemed to me you were implying your sander doesn't leave a scratch pattern (industry standard phrase). They all do, and yes, so does a sanding block. Only orbitals or random orbitals do something to mitigate that; you know this. Depending on the grits used, it can be very, very noticeable, or it can be less so, but it's going to be there. May be acceptable to some people under a clear coat; would probably be considered unacceptable to most people under stain. As far as your sentence "Now, does my machine leave some jump in your face scratch pattern? Nope, not at all. Used properly by going through the grits, and it is no more "noticeable" then an ROS." goes, I have no idea what you are saying here, or what 'jump' means.

   It's pretty clear the original poster thought he was going to feed his material in one end of a new machine, and get a finish the equivalent to random orbit sanding by hand out the other. It's not going to happen......if he goes through a dozen grits and finishes at 320 or whatever, he may not find the scratch pattern too offensive....but he's trying to save labour here, and he's got thousands(?) of linear feet to do. So I'm pointing that out before he invests in a machine that may disappoint. I've got no idea what your machine is, what species you use, your applications, or what your quality standards are....if your machine is meeting your needs, great, I'd have to see what you're doing to be able to comment.

   As far as the big machines go, the results I've seen from the big ones compared to the small ones discussed in this forum are incomparably better....but they're still not so great that most production managers I know aren't still chasing the holy grail of 'right out of the machine' sanding, whether it's more belts, rotary planing, or whatever. Your friends may not be using their machine properly. If I got a finish from a 100K widebelt that couldn't compare to a Performax, I'd shoot the technician that set it up.

   I'll be gone for a few days; we can continue this when I get back if you want, after Tuesday.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

2. 
   riverr1 | Aug 24, 2003 03:44am | #16

   Adrian,

   "Jump out at you" refers to blatant. My machine does not leave some offensive wild scratch patern. Of course there is a right way and many wrong ways to use the machine. Many of the wrong ways will leave a scratch pattern that will jump out at you. Very blatant and offesive.

   I think you misunderstood my perspective on smallhome shop machines compared to high volume production machines. Their 100k machine is heads and heels over my little 24 inch, dual drum shop machine. By the way, General International. They have time and production issues to deal with that effect or limit what the machine can and does do for them. Generally speaking, the smallhome shop is not dealing with the same restraints a production shop does. For them, it's just not efficient or productive for them to be as patient and fussy as I can be. Also, if the mood strikes me, I can walk away, and pick up where I left off at another time. I can get the same results, and better if I put the time and effort into the machine then they do, and for 98.5k less. There is no possible way though that I can match their production though. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't see the "sanding" results as incomparably better. Again, speed and production results are incomparably better.

   We are in total agreement though on the perspective that if the original poster thought the results he was after was just the cost of a machine away, he would more then likely be disappointed. As I said earlier, my experience has been my drum sander has involved the longest and most extensive learing curve of any machine in my shop. Most I've talked to about this have agreed with my estimation based their own experiences. 

   Don

3. 
   Kevin | Aug 24, 2003 04:09am | #18

   Depending on the grits used, it can be very, very noticeable, or it can be less so, but it's going to be there. May be acceptable to some people under a clear coat; would probably be considered unacceptable to most people under stain.

   That's true. However, it's a much more significant issue with pigmented stains than it is with dye stains. For that reason it would depend very much on application (where/how the wood is going to be used), the type of stain, the species of wood, etc., as to whether it would be acceptable or not. But, as a general rule I agree with you that it would probably not be acceptable to most people in most cases.

   Regards,

   Kevin

4. 
   Kevin | Aug 24, 2003 03:59am | #17

   Don,

   I'm inclined to ditto your comments thus far in this thread. I've done a lot of RO/inline/hand sanding in several related industries (hardwood furniture, interior shutters, cabinets, commercial fixtures, museum fixtures, etc...). I agree that a good drum or even a good widebelt sander, used properly, is better than a planer. Although, I do agree with what I believe is Adrian's gist in that IMHO with very few exceptions one is not going to be able to go straight from the drum/widebelt sander to applying finish without a corresponding drop in finish quality. In my experience, at least some detail sanding is going to be required regardless of what was done to the wood before hand. I'd sure rather RO sand something coming out of any drum/widebelt sander than anything coming out of any planer I've ever seen, though. Also, Adrian is right about the whole "scratch pattern" thing. Even 600 grit sandpaper leaves a scratch pattern. That's just the nature of the beast. The scratch pattern from the finer grits becomes critical in the automotive refinish market as well as for those who are buffing out a finish to a high gloss.

   Also, I believe that most purchasers of pre-fab cabinet doors are prep sanding them prior to finish. I know that I've had to sand more than a few pre-fab cabinet doors. Again... that's just the nature of the beast.

   FWIW... my perspective here is from that of a professional finisher. I've been making a living as a finisher for a little over 20 years, with a few sabbaticals inbetween. I've learned the hard way that more often than not the quality of the finish I apply is only as good as the quality of the wood prep before a drop of finish touches it. Now days no matter how much time was put into prep sanding stuff that comes into my paint shop, I go over everything with a fine-toothed comb. If things don't look right, I'm the one who is gonna get blamed, not the guy who prep sanding. Many of the clients we work with don't care what it takes, they want high-end looking stuff and they are paying high-end prices to get it. My job is to ensure that they get it, and proper sanding is absolutely crucial to ensuring that they do.

   Regards,

   Kevin

5. 
   riverr1 | Aug 24, 2003 04:18am | #19

   Hi Kevin,

   Seems I left the impression that sanding for me ends with the drum sander. That's not true. I even mentioned and was surprised by one poster going to 300+ grit with a drum sander. I usually finish up with an ROS, pad or handsanding depending on the job.

   Also I agree with you and Adrian concerning the scratch pattern. I read into Adrian's original post where he brought up the pattern. I took what he wrote as suggesting the pattern was some uncontrolable nature of the beast. Anything abrasive leaves a "scratch pattern."

   Don

6. 
   Kevin | Aug 24, 2003 05:05am | #20

   Hey Don,

   Yeah... misunderstanding the odd post is just part of the wonderful world of posting on message boards. C'est la vie. <G>

   The Shop Foreman at my workplace is trying to talk the Operations Manager into buying a drum sander for the very reasons that you've stated in this thread (mostly because it's the cheaper option). Thus far we've always had to either belt sand or RO sand planer marks out or else farm out the rough sanding to a shop with a widebelt sander. Naturally they want to charge us for the favor... so, hopefully the OM will agree to buying the drum sander.

   Regards,

   Kevin

2. 
   tdelorme | Aug 22, 2003 04:15pm | #2

   We did the same job last year on about 15,000 lin.ft. of 1X6 t&g Crprus.  I bought a DeWalt planer to do the job, but my wife was not happy with the result and we sanded.  We sanded all 15 thousand feet with hand held ROS.  Three people sanding for weeks and weeks.  Still kicking myself for not buying the Grizzly drum sander when I had a good excuse to get it.  You will never regret buying a good drum sander.  Buy the way, the first thing folks say when they come in our new house is "I love your ceilings."  Good luck with your project.

3. 
   DaveHeinlein | Aug 23, 2003 01:36am | #3

   White Pine really gums up the paper fast, and is a chore to clean off, so expect to buy/burn/break some belts. To clean them, put a loose roll in a tin can with some mineral spirits and let it soak.

1. 
   brucepirger | Aug 23, 2003 01:55am | #4

   Hey, is that true?  Do I need to touch up the T&G AFTER the drum sander???  It took about 50 hours to use the ROS on 2200 linear feet of T&G.  That's ludicrious....that's about 2 weeks of nights and weekends SANDING...let alone evrything else...and I have 4 times that to do.

   I have not seen the output of a drum sander....I only assume it will be better than the mill, better than a planer can do consistently, and I thought just as nice as the ROS....more or less.

   Geez, maybe I'd better bring a sample or 10 someplace....

   Thanks!  And thanks for the cleaning tip!

4. 
   jwaterbury | Aug 23, 2003 05:21am | #6

   A Drum sander takes many passes and can do a superior job. The problem is you are using sand paper and you can not skip a grit size. There is nothing magicial about a drum sander. It is the sand paper process. Great finishs require time and not skiping grits till the previous grit can not be seen even with a wet sheen. I have a Performx and it is great. I also spend the money on grits 36 to 380. You can save money by buying long lengths, like from Kilborn (sp).

1. 
   riverr1 | Aug 23, 2003 06:44am | #7

   Right on about following the usual progression of papers. I think some assume because it's a machine some steps can be skipped.

   How many different woods can you go up to 380 with? Some woods, oak and walnut for example, and my machine is limited to about 220. Above that, and resins can be a problem on the paper.

   Don

1. 
   jwaterbury | Aug 23, 2003 08:17am | #10

   Not many. It was in the catalog so I bought it. I use 320 for in between coats of varish etc.

1. 
   riverr1 | Aug 23, 2003 09:57am | #11

   Got'cha. Although I can get away with higher grits, I generally don't go above 150180. From there, it's all by hand, and I do all my between coats sanding by hand. The day I got my machine I sent a painted board through the machine(24" GI), and it ate the paper. Never went back to try it again.

   Have to say though that I have never had any problems with pattern scratching except when I tried, and failed I might add, shortcuts.

   edit 1: I will also add that the drum sander for me has involved the longest learning curve of any machine in my shop. Also had use of a Performax 37" machine for a while when I stored it in my shop for a buddy. They are very individual machines and not ones you can jump from one to the other and expect the same results from. For example, I could hog a lot of stock with the performax which I can't do with the GI, but the performax never gave me the same light touch sanding I get from the GI.

   Edit 2: Another thing, I've read a lot of about the problems some have with pine in drum sanders. I've sent quite a bit of Douglas Fir through mine with no problems.

   I've added the edits to suggest the possibility that if you opt for the drum sander, unlike the planer, it may not be all that effiecient for you at first. 

   Don

   Edited 8/23/2003 3:07:07 AM ET by Don C.

   Edited 8/23/2003 3:12:50 AM ET by Don C.

5. 
   scattergun | Aug 23, 2003 07:07am | #8

   The Grizzly drum sander is probably the most-hated power tool anywhere. You spend so much time rebuilding it that it would be faster to build one from scratch. I tell folks that mine still has some of the original paint....

   Hard to get to finish grade with any drum sander, especially in soft wood. There are scratch patterns, although more subtle with each change in grit. I now stop at about 220 and give those long boards a once-over with a big, heavy Lie Nielsen scraper plane. The depth of grain you gain back from the crushed sanded fibres makes the relatively easy scraping well worth it.

   Just don't buy the grizzly.

   Butch

   Scattegun Press

1. 
   srenovo | Aug 23, 2003 11:20pm | #14

   Dear Butch,

   What all have you done to yours to make it run correctly.  I have one that is at least 10 years old I have never turned on.  It is either time to get rid of it or make it work.  Maybe both.  There was a guy that wrote in FWW that he had made is work like a charm but he did not elaborate.  Since I am new to the thing of discussion groups (or whatever the correct name for a non-puplic news group is, I have not figuered out if there is a way to search for -- "How I made my Grizzly Drum Sander Sand Like It Should."  Do you or does anyone have a reference and or direction for doing this?  I do not have a metal lathe or milling machine but am fairly well tooled wood wise.  I can probabaly afford machine work so any advice is welecome from you or any other participant.

   Thanks,

   srenovo

1. 
   scattergun | Aug 24, 2003 05:57am | #21

   If you search the forums for "Grizzly Sander" or some such variation you'll like uncover quite a store of info. I know that I've seen several quite detailed accounts, and since most of these forums archive things for a long time, you'll probably turn up some good stuff.

   Myself, I first replaced the motor--3 times. The first one went up in smoke immediately, the next two were BROKEN in the box. When the first one burned, I went out and bought a 2 HP Baldor TEFC. When I finally got Grizzly motor that worked I mounted in on my (very) big shop fan. Neither drum was round, so I kept bugging them till I got one round one and one pretty good. I removed the second drum from the machine for good. I built the sanding hood out of flashing material, close around the top half of the drum and closed as many obvious vacuum leaks as I could. The original left so much dust on the boards that it became inprinted by the rollers.

   I reversed the direction of the drum's rotation, spinning toward the infeed, not away so that it snatches your board and hand if the pressure roller falters. I used only link belts. I replaced the sanding platen with something more substantial than the thick particle board supplied. I removed the lower cabinet covers (motor heaters we call 'em here in Texas.) OH! I forgot--removed the stupid finger-breaking clips from the drums and installed velcro made for the purpse by Woodmaster. Costs some, but you really get your money's worth when you can change a belt, tape the two edges with good duct tape and be one your way in 3 or 4 minutes. (It's crude, but there are a lot of pretty good drum sanders that use duct tape.) Also spent LOTS of time squaring every possible part and setting roller pressures to useful levels.

   I"m sure there's more, but I've tried not to think about this for several years. Be glad to help anyway I can.

   (pssst--wanna buy a pretty good one-drum sander?)

   Butch

   Scattergun Press

1. 
   brucepirger | Aug 26, 2003 07:54am | #22

   Thanks to everyone....I think.  LOL!

   Yes, I am the original poster...I do have some 10,000 linear feet of 1x8 T&G white pine to hang in my house...the walls and the ceiling.  Just about eveywhere inside.

   Straight from the mill, some displays those planer marks..enough that I want to remove them.  This is NOT a finished showpiece like you folks tend to make, and hopefully someday I will strive to attempt as well.  However, I estimate something like 200 hours of time sanding with a ROS to finish this much linear feet...that's a long time for a DIY'er working alone nights and weekends...

   SO I am searching for an alternative to arrive near the same level of satisfaction.  My experience with the ROS showed me I can run 80,100,or 120 grit in the ROS and all satisfy me.  Most of this can't be touched anyhow...it is overhead...and from 20', you really can't tell the difference...and even I draw the line between super anal and just anal when it comes to this...LOL.

   So with that said, I'm starting to think the planer is certainly out and the sander will get me closer to were I want to be...albeit maybe not completely.  Is there any other option someone would suggest?

   I could perhaps rent time on the machine, but moving the material up to my site, I believe, will introduce more bangs and scratches than I'll ever see from any sander...so onsite I believe is essential.  I'm willing to drop the $900 for the sander...although I'd sure like to test one out for awhile first...and I think the time grows very close.

   Again, thanks for all your help, suggestions, and comments.  Hmmm, if you all ran the ROS at my place for as much time as this read took to write, we'd have the first 2000 feet done.  :) 

   Thanks again!

1. 
   riverr1 | Aug 26, 2003 05:50pm | #23

   With ~10k bf, the cost of renting a machine will probably be more then the price of one. If this wood is still rough sawn, I would suggest both a planer and sander. Heck, a jointer might be called for too! ;^)

   I will say that planers can a decent surface. Best of luck.

   Don

2. 
   emerckx | Aug 26, 2003 08:15pm | #24

   Check with your local cabinet shops. I have a friend who owns such a shop and has a large oscillating belt sander that seems to take out the linear scratches of a drum sander. The beast looks expensive, but I bet they would run an awful lot of narrow T&G stock through for the $900 you would spend buying a drum sander

   Mike

3. 
   Elcoholic | Aug 26, 2003 11:21pm | #25

   I've logged maybe 20 hours a Performax ShopPro 25.  Probably 3 hrs with Mahoghany and 17 hrs with QSWO.  My observations are as follows:  A planer, a drum sander and an R/O sander are complimentary tools.  The planer and R/O are necessities, the drum sander can save a lot of RO time but not eliminate it.

   I'd never thickness stock with it if I had a planer, unless it was tearout prone wood.  Tune up your planer ajnd keep it sharp to minimize the mill marks.  That way you can take out the millmarks with several passes of the same grit, because changing rolls takes too much time.  If you want to go through a progression of grits you're better off with a wide belt.

   Don't scrimp on the paper use the best you can.  I tried some discount brand and a rogue grit left a scratch that could not have been worse had I used an ice pick.

   Take very light passes, 1/6 turn max. and run the feed belt wide open.  If it burns, that roll is toast and it will take a lot more time to get the burn mark out and change the roll.

   Park a dedicated 2hp D/C right next to it.

   Use a crepe block frequently to keep the abrasive clean.

   Sand to 150 or 180 and switch to a R/O at the same grit, it takes longer to "randomize" the linear scratch pattern at a finer grit.  I stop at 180 and wet down with water to raise the grain and follow-up w/ 220.

   Don't even think about trying to run Purpleheart through it, it really stinks when it burns and it burns like crazy.

   Besides reducing R/O sanding time the ShopPro achieves a more uniform stock thinkness than my planer.  I get more consistent tenon thicknesses and more consistent plys for bent laminations.  FWIW I wouldn't even think about a cantilevered, open ended machine.  Everthing else being equal there's no way that design can hold the same parallellism tolerences as drum supported on both ends.  My only complaint about the ShopPro is it's my buddies shop.  I need to get one of my own.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

6. 
   Telemike | Aug 23, 2003 07:18am | #9

   I use my drum sander to thickness tough wood and glue ups.  I sand the faces flat and parallel with 80 or 100 grit, then move to either scapers (#80, then card scraper) or the ROS.  It's much too much foo-fra to swap windups on the drum through 4 to 6 different grits!

   It's also the best machine possible for thicknessing bandsawn veneer to 1/16" or so (generally, my max thickness for veneer).