I have some beautiful logs and a Laguna bandsaw. I want to try resawing the green wood into veneer and drying it between vinyl screens. My friend said they would reach usable dryness in 2 weeks. Can this work? Has anyone tried or does anyone know of a resource to consult?
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<usable dryness> I don't think it will take that long. I have been thinking of doing something like that also with my woodmizer.
One of the things that I believe I have read that Dr Wengert over at the woodweb site has said that it is hard to dry really thin stuff because of warping, and I have my doubts that vinyl screen will stop cupping if it is flat-sawn or has a lot of other ills that may be inherent in the wood. Even if you sticker it they have to be very close together to prevent sagging in between, and then you may have other problems because of the thinness, the exposed wood may dry very rapidly and shrink ahead of the space under the sticks which will remain swollen, and lead to checking etc.
Even if all goes well in the drying, then you will be faced with jointing, and planing the to opposite faces.
I will be getting a couple of nice big white-oak logs sometime over the next few weeks, and here is what I plan to try. I will have to quarter both of these logs with my chain-saw before I can put them on the mill, so I will be sawing mainly for quarter figure, but as some gets into rift, I will start with maybe a 5" X 6". I have a Makita 6" power-plane that I will surface the top face, then rip off a 3/16 layer that I will run right through the little a little planer which I can take out to the mill. While it is running through, I can then face the next piece with the power-plane > saw> and repeat this over and over.
When I get the batch done, I plan to clamp one end of each to a cable that I will stretch across the parking-lot like clothes hanging from a line. If the air is warm and dry, I don't think it should take over a few day for them to dry, and if I have chosen my wood carefully for no defect or grain-stress, and keep them in sequence, they should stay if not flat, at least manageable for something that I would plan to use for laminated bends anyway
If they're going to be narrow laminations, like for an apron or legs, and if your stock is pretty clear, have you considered riving instead of sawing?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
No John, I think I will need you to tell me just how that works. It sounds like breaking something so you can fix it. If you have a good technique that works for you, I would like to hear about it.
I've gotta ask, Keith. Why mess with making your own veneer? I can see it if it's from a tree your grandfather planted or one you swung from as a kid or some other emotional reason but I don't understand why you'd want to hassle with it for veneers you're not attached to. There are fabulous veneers that are cut by knives and graded for figure. The knives mean no saw marks to deal with, the mill has removed all the defective pieces from drying, and the grading assures figure you're not likely to see from even "special" logs.I don't get it. The time involved plus the expense seems to be way over the top. As a professional furniture maker I could not rationalize the cost of making my own veneer unless the client specifically wanted it.Is it the journey? This I can get. I suppose everyone should give this a go at some point to get a better understanding of the process, it will open your eyes to the value of veneer.Enlighten me, Keith. What makes it worthwhile?Lee
Lee, I am in agreement with you on buying my face veneers. I guess I wandered away from what the original poster was questioning. The reason I will be doing this is for doing laminated bends where I want all of the plys to be sequence matched, and because I have all of the equipment to do it easily, and the wood is free.As I am sure you know, most woods are only about half as dense when green as when dry, so the sawing will be easier, the drying time quicker. If I were to try to dry the 5x6 blank ahead of time, I would be looking at 5 years of air-drying, and that would likely have checking. I was just wondering if you ever carve green wood? I had not for about 35 years, until a couple of years ago. I was pleasantly surprised at how much easier it was.Oh, and before any of the other professional that would know jump in to point out, I know that there will likely be a mineral coating that will need to be removed from the surface that will likely interfere with the glue getting a good bite on the surface. I will probably hit it with the RO sander with a coarse grit just before glue-up. Epoxy likes to have texture to grab onto since it does not penetrate the cell-walls like the water-born glues do.I have not posted any photos in a while. I hope it is OK to do that here. I just thought it might be helpful for anyone reading my suggestions to know how I might use them. The Love-Seat is 16 layers of 1/6" mahogany, bought not re-sawn. The table base is about 1.75" thick, made of about 3/16" plys, and I am not sure how or when it got mislabeled Hall Table, it was a Side-Table that went with a dining table of the same details.
Love seat? Wow, that straight back would lend itself to torture long before love! Hah, hah, ha..., shall we name it "canoodling in a cage"?You know, it's a beautiful bit of work and seems very well done but that love seat seems to have thrown ergonomics and comfort to the wind. Pieces like this make me think of you more as an artist than a furniture maker. That's not a bad thing, we all struggle to become unique and you are more successful than most, more so than me. Lee
Yea the LOVE thing only starts in the canoodling-cage, then moves on rapidly to more comfortable settings. I had a couple of nice sized pillows in/on it for the brief period that I owned it. I should have made some black leather ones that were part of it.It was inspired by Rennie Macintosh's work.I don't know if I can claim much success though thanks for the compliment.
I don't suppose it would be useful to tell you that success can be measured in ways other than money, especially when the bills are due.Well, somehow I suspect you're not fit for anything else so you'll keep at it.Lee
Oops, forgot something,Carving green? Nope, you know me, traditionalist. I do small ornaments and they are detailed better in dried and shrunken wood, I'm afraid the benefits of the green wood would get lost in the drying time and retouch once the wood is dry. Besides, I'm a furniture maker, not a sculptor. If I were to get into sculpture I'd work green wood but I haven't had the inclination to stray from furniture yet, perhaps in my dotage. Ruthie says I'll be making doll house furniture when I get old, she sees the trend is getting smaller, not larger, but who knows? I saved a pretty large chunk of a cottonwood log for a bit of large scale work, still waiting for the call.Hey Keith, come to MontanaFest and do a workshop for us, it's a great time.Lee
Hey Lee, That Montana Fest sounds like a fun thing to do. Have you set a date yet? Although, if I traveled that far, I would have to piggyback it with backpack trip into either Tetons, Yellowstone, or Glacier, so there goes a couple of weeks, but Oh man!! would I love to do that with my new camera. I bought a Canon S2 IS a few months ago, and I just love it. It is unbelievable what all they can pack into such a small tool. This thing has 12 X optical, with 4X digital on that. I am blown away to be able to hand hold 12, but to be able to get a good shot at 48X is mind blowing. What kind of workshop subject would you like for me to think about doing?
Yup, date's set, it's happening the weekend of July 22. Now that I'm on the mend I'm gonna start beating the MontanaFest drum. It would be great if you could make it, Keith. I figure you are one of those guys that has such a great general knowledge we could schedule you for quite a number of subjects. I've had requests for a David Marks type presentation and I'm sure you could do that, I mean being from California and all. Actually you Californiafruitcakes have a definite style about you, Gary Knox Bennet, you, Marks, even Maloof and Krenov, you all share a style.I'll warn you upfront, the cost to attend is based on what it costs Ruthie and me to put this shindig together. We rent all sorts of stuff, hire caterers for meals, microbrews on tap, live music Saturday night and the whole nine yards. There simply is no padding in the budget for subsidizing anyone. Last year Ruthie and I paid more than anyone to attend so we upped the fee a bit to $200. You can pitch your tent here, hell, I'll even loan you one of ours, and eat and drink like a king and teach, what could be better than that?It would be great to meet you, it would be great to have a workshop done by you, give it some thought. We live 35 miles from Yellowstone so it's not far from some truly spectacular places.LeeMontanaFest
Hey Lee, I don't know how you would confuse this old crust of cornbread for a piece of fruitcake. I am in Arkansas. There is another KN out in California though, you must be confusing the two of us. He even has his own sawmill too, does turnings and furniture, and carves as well. We have all heard of a parallel universe, and I always thought that it would a bit farther out there than that.I will have to think about that trip out. From here, I would be driving 32 -3500 miles. That would be at least 100 gals of gas. and close to a week of hard driving, and a hundred dollars a night to sleep on the ground for two nights. I have never thought that life was suppose to be easy, and that sounds like a lot of fun. But I am not so sure it should be that hard either.
Dang man, I was sure you were from California, sorry about that. I'll make a mental note and hope it doesn't get flushed when I go catatonic and stare out the window. I'm getting my Newtons mixed up.I hope it works out that you can make it.LeeMontanaFest
There are fabulous veneers that are cut by knives and graded for figure. The knives mean no saw marks to deal with, the mill has removed all the defective pieces from drying, and the grading assures figure you're not likely to see from even "special" logs.I don't get it. The time involved plus the expense seems to be way over the top. As a professional furniture maker I could not rationalize the cost of making my own veneer unless the client specifically wanted it.The difference between sliced and sawn veneer is incredible. If the veneer is sliced it will produce a striped effect when laid up on a core produced by the stretching and compression of the veneer when it comes off of the knife when it is sliced. One side of the veneer will finish differently than the other.
That sounds like chatoyance to me, nothing to do with how the veneer is cut. Book matching will often result in the light/dark change, slip matching never.Give me examples of what you're talking about. There is a textural difference between faces but this is overcome by using a film forming finish and sanding between coats whether there is build or not.Tell me more, LeeMontanaFest
“Book matching will often result in the light/dark change, slip matching never.Give me examples of what you're talking about. There is a textural difference between faces but this is overcome by using a film forming finish and sanding between coats whether there is build or not.”You see it all the time in some plywoods when the veneers are book matched and especially when the surface is stained. I have seen veneers where it is very noticeable where one side is wooly and the other side is shinier. It is completely through the veneer. When veneer is sawn it is much less likely to happen. If you use sawn veneer and hand plane the surface and then compare it to sliced veneer and sand it, there is a world of difference. In some woods the difference is almost impossible to miss because of the difference in texture. The veneer companies recognize the difference. There is an article at http://www.norbord.com/images/Cherry.pdf
(from your message) "You see it all the time in some plywoods when the veneers are book matched and especially when the surface is stained. I have seen veneers where it is very noticeable where one side is wooly and the other side is shinier. It is completely through the veneer. When veneer is sawn it is much less likely to happen."The article addresses this nicely, I don't know why it's a problem. Cherry is prone to take stain unevenly whether it's sliced or sawn so prestain conditioning is important if you're staining regardless of how the veneer is cut. In other words, if finished properly the means used to cut veneers is moot.(from your message) "If you use sawn veneer and hand plane the surface and then compare it to sliced veneer and sand it, there is a world of difference."Kudos to you, enjoy the journey. I'd never attempt to dissuade you from it.I've done a fair amount of veneering and in the normal course of my finishing the problems you cite are nonexistant. For my money and time (I do this for a living) I can find much nicer veneers from veneer dealers than I could ever process on my own. I can pick from a number of flitches and get as many pieces as I need. As you know, opening a log is often dissappointing if you have expectations.I've heard the arguments for plane vs. sanded and I believe once the finish is on and the piece is 6 months old plane marks are all that betray the difference.LeeMontanaFest
GB, I doubt that I am capable of changing your mind if you have had a bad experience with knife cut veneers, but I am afraid that is not always the way it is for everyone. That being said, maybe you got some poorly sliced veneer. They may not all be equal, and maybe what you got was not the best that there is. When a veneer is being sliced, there are things that can cause what you have described, like a dull knife, moisture content, improper pressure-bar adjustment, etc.
However when everything is right, I just don't see much of those problems, and to suggest otherwise is generalizing.I am happy to saw alll of my plys for bending, but when it comes to face veneer, I will be sticking with store-bought/sliced.
I see it all the time in commercially made plywood. Have ever rarely seen that in sawn veneer which is then hand planed. Even commercial companies who supply furniture makers and piano makers are aware of this. It has been well known for many many years. There was a time when you could get sliced or sawn veneers. It is the thickness of the knife which causes the tension and compression in veneers. Veneers even change size from the original due to the same problem.
Edited 5/15/2006 10:43 pm by gb93433
As I said I don't expect to convince you. I can see it all of the time in cheap ply also. That is why I only buy the best that I can get. My goal is to alway make each piece better than the last, and I just can't find or afford solid lumber to turn into veneer as good as what I can buy.Have you ever posted photos of your work here so I can see what you consider to be really great sawn veneer? Maybe I need to learn from you what I have been missing.
Sadly about four years ago a man I was doing business with for about two years told me that he could scan about 100 of my photos and copy them onto a CD. I never got them back. So I have very few photos of any of my work.
gb, What you are referring to is commonly called "Barber Poling" it's usually only prominent on large panels and/or large expanses of paneled walls. Maple is the worst offender of this. However, unless your making large cabinet pieces with large uninterupted panels, it's not a problem to contend with. If you take some very curly/fiddleback veneer and bookmatch, whether sawn or sliced doesn't matter, you'll get a negative or reverse of the other side. On one side the curl will be coming up at you and the opposite side of the match the curl will be going away from you. Thus creating a difference at the seam. gb, I understand your view, but there's so much more that's only offered in veneers. I just glued up some Italian dyed birdseye, 3 different colors, those are not available at all in solid form. If you had a cabinet to do that required the equivalent of 5 or more full sheets of figured veneer ply, would you saw and plane that also?Lee, hope your foot is healing up good for you. I can't even imagine doing woodworking with a bum foot. I've got a bad knee, takes me a few minutes to kneel or squat.Keith, lots of bentwood laminations in that loveseat. I see the inspiration you drew from, not exactly a piece to lounge in though.Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
"I understand your view, but there's so much more that's only offered in veneers. I just glued up some Italian dyed birdseye, 3 different colors, those are not available at all in solid form. If you had a cabinet to do that required the equivalent of 5 or more full sheets of figured veneer ply, would you saw and plane that also?"I do not do that kind of work. That has never been an issue with me.
"I plan to clamp one end of each to a cable that I will stretch across the parking-lot like clothes hanging from a line."You have to post a picture! We have to see a picture of "Mama Newton" hanging the "washboards" on the line and then leaning over the fence to gossip with the other woodworkers. "Did you hear the fight last night between the Jones's? She gave him so much grief for buying another Lee Valley plane. I mean really. The poor guy only has 12! I feel so sorry for him....."Seriously now. I have my doubts about the "sheets" drying flat especially if in direct sunlight. However you've got nothing to loose by trying. Rather than looking for a lot of "strong clothes pegs" to clamp to the cable. Before you saw the veneers, drill a hole in the end of the Cant. Then you can lace/thread the cable through the stack or use hooks and spread them out. At night or if the weather changes you can slide them all to the end and throw a tarp over to keep them dry.
QC, I will have to take some photos, and I am sure I have enough spring-clamps for the job. As far as the kind of changing that I expect, I don't think I will have much to worry since they will be rift sawn. Cupping is a problem of plain-sawing, due to the tangental/radial shrinkage ratios.If anything, they may twist, but since they will end up being glued back together in bundles, in a vacuum bag, and bent/clamped around a form, any change will be clamped out in the end.I could go on and saw the thin planks with the quarter face, except that makes all of the glue-lines end up on the flat-sawn face, which I don't think looks very good due to the broad ring porous pattern of oak. However they will dissappear when blended into the rift edges.
I'll suggest a different approach. You don't say how thick the pieces will be but sawn for veneer I'd guess around 3/16" or an eighth? It will dry quickly, certainly days and not weeks unless your conditions are humid and cool or the wood is thicker.
Dry it letting it have it's will, this will help to avoid checking. Any restraint on wood that thin during drying will stress the tissue and could easily lead to checking. Once the veneer is dry run it through a flattening process for veneers. I've got a recipe if you need one and it involves a press, vinyl screen and lots of newspaper.
Or, dry it right from the beginning using the flattening process.
Lee
Thanks, can I have that recipe?
Here you go, Archibald. This is not "my" recipe, it's Daryl Keil's and I have used it successfully many times. I heard someone say they suspect the glycerin causes fisheyes in their finish but I've never had this experience,VENEER FLATTENING FORMULAMix Together:2 parts white or yellow glue, 3 parts water, 1 part glycerin and 1 part denatured alcohol
1. Mix all components together thoroughly and apply to both sides of the veneer liberally.
2. Let soak for a minute or two
3. Place veneer between fiberglass window screen (both sides) and add 2-3 layers of newspaper on top of the screen. You may continue by adding more newspaper, screen, veneer, etc., stacking as high as you like. Flip each veneer end for end so the wavy parts are not all in the same spot.
4. Place this "sandwich" in your veneer press with a caul on top (1/4" minimum.) and apply full pressure.
5. Change the newspaper 3 times the first day and leave under pressure overnight.
6. On the second day remove the sandwich from the press and take away the screen, it is no longer needed, as the veneer will not stick to the newspaper anymore.
7. Change the newspaper 3 times this day but do not put the sandwich in the press, just place weight on top of the caul to hold the stack down. It is easy to think this second day is unnecessary since the veneer will feel fairly dry, but it is not dry enough to press. This extra day is important for good final results.
8. On the third day the veneer is ready to use. If you do not use it immediately the veneer will stay flat for months provided a board is placed on top of the veneer stack, apply light pressure. Newspaper between the veneer is unnecessary at this point.LeeMontanaFest
Sorry to be so late posting, Ive been off skiing Lassen Park. This post seems to have gone off in a direction that has little to do with answering your question.
Some suggestions on homemade veneer:
1. 1/16" final thickness or less after cutting and sanding to thickness.
2. Flatten the billet before each sheet of veneer is cut.
3. For burls and green wood, put the sheets between layers of corrugated cardboard and clamp heavy cauls on the outsides to hold it all together. The cardboard has channels that help the drying and can hold veneer pretty flat. Takes about six years in Washington and oregon and about 1 month in a CA summer. No matter how hard you try, the craziest grain (like burls and crotches) won't stay entirely flat and you'll just have to take that into account. Also search the web for veneer flattening agents.
4. You cut your own veneer because sliced veneer is too thin and is damaged by the sudden and sharp bend where the knife cuts the wood. Cut 1/16" veneer looks more like wood than veneer; commercial veneer looks like veneer. And, you can use wood that is special to you. Note that this can't be important to any but the most custom commercial shops because of the investment in labor. If you're a hobbyist, then the quality of what you make is YOUR choice and cutting special veneer may be just the ticket.
Sometimes home cut, sometimes special commercial veneer. I'm not all that dogmatic (although the dogs are).
Good arguments for and against using homemade/storebought veneer. I'll only add that the times that I've gone to the trouble to make my own veneer was to have consistancy throughout a piece. That is, a case made of solid, figured, wood, with bowed/serpentine front veneered in the same wood. Often, however, the drawer fronts, doors, etc, are veneered with stuff chosen to contrast with the rest of the piece. Then it's easier to just buy what you want, and, as has been pointed out, get more exotic stuff than is possible otherwise.
Regards,
Ray Pine
"3. For burls and green wood, put the sheets between layers of corrugated cardboard and clamp heavy cauls on the outsides to hold it all together. The cardboard has channels that help the drying and can hold veneer pretty flat."At the furniture making school I attended we were told to never do this because where the corrugation compresses the veneer it would create a striped effect. So we used a pressed paper product such as pooster board instead.
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