I’ve got a kitchen full of face frame cabinets, and am planning to paint/refinish the carcases and make new doors for them. But I’d rather have frameless – invisible hardware, ability to see everything in the cabinet, and most of all, my wife likes ’em.
Can I convert face frame cabinets to frameless? If so, what if any reinforcement do I need and where? And, is there any reason I couldn’t do it with the cabinets hanging in place?
Thanks for addressing my ignorance,
Mitch
“I’m always humbled by how much I DON’T know…”
Replies
mvac ,
First off the only dumb question , is the one you don't ask . That said , the thing that pops into my head is when you remove the face frames , guessing they are 3/4" thick your cabinets would need edge banding of the same thickness to retain the original depth probably 12 " that is a fairly standard Wall cabinet depth . Also the existing method of construction may determine whether any reinforcment would be needed . Euro frameless cabinets almost always have backs on them . So if yours have backs and are sound in foundation to begin with you could do what you ask . How many running feet of cabinets are you looking at ? What are your expectations when completed ? These are questions only you and your wife can answer .
best of luck , on this rather ambitious task , dusty
Dusty,
I only wish it were that easy - I liked your answer best! But, read below for the scoop. And Thanks.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Mitch ,
Sorry that you will not have an easy quick and clean fix , I was trying to be positive and optimistic , but perhaps not very realistic . As I said, it all depends on your expectations when complete . So looks like you will be fabricating a new set of Euro style kitchen cabinets , sounds like job security to me .As far as hinges go , I personally use Mepla brand , I have used some Blum as well and the Blum is a very complete line of products as well but honestly there is little difference in general as to the dynamics and operation and features between these two and several other of the main hitters in the market place . For a standard cabinet door opening I use a 125 degree opening hinge , for corners or with roll out shelves I often use 170 degree swing . Almost all the brands are available with or without insertion dowels and with quick disconnect clips which I highly recommend . You can get your doors adjusted just right , then remove them for whatever reason and replace them without the need to re adjust them . I have used flush inset hinges as well as overlay , with and without face frames , Euro hinges really make my life easy and make us look like accurate mechanics .
good luck dusty
Hey Dusty,
That's some great information - thanks. I must say, though, that job security only applies when you're fabricating someone else's cabinets...
Cheers,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
First off the only dumb question , is the one you don't ask .
actually, I disagree and you would too if you sat in on some of the meetings that I have!
In this specific case the question is most certainly not dumb.
Jeff ,
Sorry to hear about that , you must be in administration of sorts or work with a bunch of PHDs or the likes of other cerebral types .LOL
dusty
I guess you could classify them as cerebral types where brains and common sense are not proportional! LOL
if what you want by going frameless is to clean up the appearance of the cabinets you can go with full overlay doors and euro hinges designed for faceframes, just increase the overlay (be sure to match it to what the hinge can accomodate) to close the gaps.
My kitchen cabinets have faceframes...
Hey, I like that! My wife and I also love the contemporary look. Cool TV...
Thanks,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Did you use a Shaker stile and rail bit set w/ bevel or just T&G? I'm in the process of finishing my cabinets and will get the 15 degree Shaker bits at the next Woodworker's Show, just curious. I kind of like the bevel since it softens the look of the doors. How wide are your face frames and door stiles & rails?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I used a raised panel set and installed the doors inside out.
DOH! I remember that from an earlier post.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I think the 15 degree bit set is pretty nice, I'm going to get one of those for the next project I have like this.
rails and stiles are 4" on these cabinets.
To many variables here.
First thing I would do is try to look and see where cabs join together, for uppers you should be able to just look underneath and see, if the two adjoining sides measure under 1 1/2" you might be able to do it.
That's just one factor, the other is the way the cabs are joined together, they are more than likely screwed through the face frames, that means that you have to screw them together some other way.
Then once you take the face frame off you have to face the raw edge, that's probably not so bad in itself but in taking them off did you do a little damage that will now need repairing?
I think I can come up with about 10 more things that will need serious consideration.
As I sit here and think about it I would probably not bother. I would just build new boxes. That's the easy part of cabinets anyhow.
Your really going to have to look your cabs over real well and evaluate weather or not its feasible.
Edit; just thought of something, if you want the Euro look from the outside, meaning that you want doors and drawers with an 1/8" revel between them.
I've done a remodel like that, kitchen had traditional FF cabs but people wanted Euro look.
I just got the hinges that would allow me to mount the hinge to the FF and made all my reveals like I would on a Euro cab.
From the outside it looked Euro, still had FF but you didn't see them until you opened the doors or drawers.
Doug
Edited 2/2/2005 11:33 pm ET by Doug@es
Doug,
Spacers between cabs. Had hoped to get away from building new carcases, I've never built wall cabs and am concerned I won't be able to line up the backs w/ the likely uneven walls. Plus it's a lot more work.
Can you say more about what you did to get the "Euro" look on face frame cabinets? Hardware, technique, etc.? Thanks,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
If the cabinets are face frame, the sides, top and bottom may not be 3/4"(13/16"). Look at where two sides meet and see if there's a gap and how thick the box material is. The closest you will probably get to having a frameless look is by removing enough of the face frame so it's flush with the inside of the box. Depending on how they were made, this may or may not be possible to do with good results. You can still use European style hinges on face frame cabinets and hinges can be bought with different amounts of overlap.
Highfigh,
Think I'm gonna have to go the European hinge route. Any recommendations? Is the Blum the enad-all/be-all? Thanks,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
If they are factory made cabinets, you may not want to remove the face frames. They are generally rabbeted on and often heavily glued with staples set in at an angle. The adjoining sides and bottoms can have a wide cut back to eliminate interference, where the frames fit. Just look up in the area behind the frame where it attaches to the front and you may see daylight. Factory cabinets are often only 1/2" thick on the sides. The base units often have some type of corner block, metal, plastic, wood that attaches to the existing face frame and is structurally important. If you decide to use larger doors for the "look", make sure you have the hinges first. Not many will allow an inch or more of overlap on the hinge side. There will also be issues with the drawer slides if you pull the frames off.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer,
No frameless clearly not an option unless I build the boxes. Can you say more about the limits of the hinges? ThanksMitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Mvac, there are tons of hinges for all types of applications. Over the last ten years or so, the Euro style have become popular. I'm not sure why people don't like to see hinges but it is almost a standard now. Because they mount behind the door, there are limits to how much the door can overlay a frame with them. With surface mount hinges, you can mount them in most any configuration. In either case, you need to get a hinge that will fit your application. Many of the Euro styles are mounted on the side wall of the cabinet. There are fewer designs for face frames. I recently installed a kitchen. "Cabico Cuisine" that were face frame cabinets with inset doors but they used side mounted style hinges, they had to add small blocks to clear the face frame. They could, (should), have used a face frame style that mounts on the frame. The manufacturer also mounted the hinges down 4" from each end of the doors. On the small 12" doors over the range, the doors sagged due to the center mounting. In time they will not last.Most manufacturers show a schematic for their various mounting and door type applications. Visit a web site or check out catalogs like Rockler. I built a jewelry cabinet once with lipped doors, 1/4" x 1/4" only to discover, nobody makes a hinge for that. I had to make my own. Not something you would want to do with 50 pairs or so in a kitchen.Beat it to fit Paint it to match
Funny. I 'm just finishing up a kitchen renovation that started the same way. "Hey I'll give these cabinets a face lift"... now three months, 300 board feet of maple and 10 sheets of maple plywood later, I am just finishing up a kitchen renovation that includes 30' or so of cabinets and a 4'x4' center island (pic of partially completed job below).Anyway, think carefully about jumping into this. It's a production style job and you need to have enough shop space for a job this big (or you have to do a bunch of little batch runs). I'm happy that I did it, but at the same time I'm about ready to kill myself....
Check out http://www.cabinetparts.com for a look at the styles of Euro hinges out there. I ended up with the Blum -- they make euro style hinges for both frameless and face frame cabinets and they;re not too expensive (quantity discount as well). A good friend of mine just had a custom kicthen built (to the tune of $70k) and the cabinets he bought also had the Blumotion stops for the doors and the drawers. Expensive, but very slick -- you can slam a door or drawer and it just glides closed. Attaching the hinges is a fairly simple task especially if you have a drill press. Buy the 35mm bit, setup a fence on the press and it's a snap. Also these hinges have depth, height and width adjustments so you can somewhat dial in the final fit of the doors (or adjust them seasonally).
If you jump into this remember: kicthen cabinets are NOT fine furniture pieces.
Cheers,
M
Caslewerks,
Thanks for the input. Missed the picture, though...
300 bf of Maple AND 10 sheets of Maple ply? How big is this kitchen?
Thanks for the advice, especially about the differentiation with fine furniture,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Sorry, realized that I don't have any up to date pics on my computer at work -- just pics of the work in progress -- they are not great shots and as I said, a work in progress, but here 'ya go.I didn't go through the full 300 bf... probably closer to 250 or so... the ply goes fast though, especially when you consider cabinet backs, shelves, etc... I will readily admit that the cabinets are over built though as is the center island becaue the counter top is very heavy...Cheers,Michael
This probably just reflects my ignorance: I understand how you can eat through 10 sheets of ply in box and shelf and island construction. That leaves the doors, right? 250 bf of solid maple in the doors? It seems like an amazingly large amount. Again, you've done it and I haven't, but did you actually go through that much material for the doors? Thanks in advance for the insight,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Sorry, I never actually answered your question. The panels of the doors are hardwood as well (not ply) as the plywood doesn't quite match the hardwood in terms of color. Close, but not close enough for me... If they were going to be stained or painted it would not have made much of a difference, but I finished them with a few coats of Waterlox. Keep in mind also that I was able to get a wholesale price on the maple for buying more than 250 bf (4/4 rough) at a local hardwood retailer. In addition, besides the doors, any exposed cabinet side is also frame and panel which means all 4 sides of the center island, etc... It is a lot of wood, but there was a lot of waste as well. All of the rails and stiles for the doors and 4" wide, but a lot of the rough boards were 6" or 7" wide...I got a great price, but I had to take what they bundled... not that I would have wanted to hand select that many boards...After milling and jointing I was ripping at least an inch of "waste" off of every board. I used a lot of that for edge banding of the plywood, but still, there was a fair amount of waste.Yeah, I know.... :-)Cheers,--M
for projects like this it is really startling to see what you save by buying 6/4 and resawing it. Buying 4/4 and planing it down means you are wasting 25% right off the starting line. Sometimes I'll go with 5/4 to resaw and use the 3/4 for the face frames and doors frames, and build panels out of the 1/2". The MM20 bandsaw in my shop has really earned it's keep.
I can understand how you go through this many bdf of lumber, a typical kitchen can easily have 150 sq feet of cabinet surfaces (doors, panels, faceframes).
Indeed resawing 6/4 would have been a smart move. I ended up getting 300 bf of 4/4 for almost half of it's retail price, so that was somewhat of a factor. However, if I had to do this over again, there are a lot of things that I would have done differently.... I'm going to call this one a big learning experience....Cheers,Michael
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense. I didn't imagine how much waste there'd be... Hopefully, you'll be able to use what's left over for other projects, so it won't have turned out to be a total loss.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
So did you do it?
I want to update my frame face cabinets to frameless and I was just wondering if you ever made the updates? If so, do you have before and after pics?
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