Replies

1. 
   Gretchen | Jun 18, 2006 02:46pm | #1

   A non-poly varnish?  Waterlox? McCloskey? Pratt & Lambert 38?

   Gretchen
2. 
   JohnH | Jun 18, 2006 04:15pm | #2

   I did an experiemt on this issue. I used a nicely figured walnut board, finished one half with polyurethane and the other half with General Finishes Seal-A-Cell and Arm-R-Seal wipe-on varnish system. Let the finishes cure for two weeks. Couldn't tell any difference in how each brought out the figure in the wood; both fine. Couldn't scratch either one with maximum pressure from my thumbnail. Both scratched the same with sandpaper. My conclusion: no difference in performance, and I prefer working with wipe-on varnishes. Probably other wipe-on varnishes work similarly.

   IMHO there are few absolute truths in finishing. The best answer to a question is to run a test on a scrap from your project, using the candidate finishes.

1. 
   dwolsten | Jun 18, 2006 05:55pm | #3

   I'm not sure why you'd expect any significant difference in these two finished: polyurethane IS a varnish. The only difference between that and your other varnish is the type of resin used, and the amount of solvent. Polyurethane can be thinned and wiped on too, so that's not a factor (they even sell polyurethane wiping varnish, but you can easily make your own by just adding thinner). The only other difference is the resin used in the General stuff. If it's not poly, then it's an alkyd resin or a phenolic resin. It's most likely alkyd. Polyurethane has better ultimate scratch resistance, but you probably wouldn't be able to tell that with just your fingernail.As for the original posters' comment of just "sitting on the wood", all varnishes do this: they build up a film on top of the wood to protect it. The only way to avoid that is to use an oil finish, but that has no resistance to moisture penetration and very little scratch resistance.

1. 
   psmfisch | Jun 19, 2006 07:13am | #7

   Is there a preparation that is a acombination oil and varnish/poly finish that partially soaks into the wood and also is scratch and stain/liquid resistant?

   emailing from Australia

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 19, 2006 02:25pm | #8

   There is still no free lunch.  If a finish does not build a film on the surface it can't be very protective.  Oil/varnish mixes certainly do better at stain and water protection that pure oils but add little to scratch resistence.  If protection is the primary criterion then you want a film finish--varnish or a catalyzed finish.  If the most important thing is the in-the-wood finish look, then take heart from the fact that such finishes are much easier to touch up and repair.   

1. 
   psmfisch | Jun 19, 2006 04:36pm | #9

   well, it was worth a try canvassing the global knowledge, attempting to find that combination of deep grain appearance and a hard wearing finish!

   Can you build up an oil finish with coats to be resiliant?

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 19, 2006 04:59pm | #10

   >> Can you build up an oil finish with coats to be resiliant?

   Gererally no.  Because of their high oil content, oil/varnish mixtures are very soft and flexible when they dry.  "Building" a multi-coat finish results in a sort of rubbery film that is not very protective and defeats the "in the wood" look that most want from an oil/varnish finish.Howie.........

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 18, 2006 06:45pm | #4

   To add to Grethen's list, Sherwin Williams makes a non-poly varnish.  Also, Behlen's Rockhard is an excellent non-poly varnish that is as tough and even harder than any poly.  I would recommend it and the Waterlox Original Gloss or Satin.  The Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish would not be the best choice as it is fairly oil have and fairly soft.

   I prefer a non-poly varnish. It is a much clearer finish and can be rubbed out to a smooth, high gloss.  But, poly is just a form of varnish that uses some or all urethane resin.  Both poly varnish and standard varnish are film finishes that sit on the surface.  There is no difference in that regard.

   BTW, Gereral Finishes Seal A Cell and Arm R Seal are both urethane finishes.

   If you prefer to work with a thinned wiping varnish, you can thin any of oil based varnish 50/50 with mineral spirits and you will have a wiping varnish.

   Howie.........

   
   

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   Edited 6/18/2006 11:48 am ET by HowardAcheson

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 18, 2006 08:07pm | #5

   Howie, all you guys chopsing on about polyurethane and alkyd or phenolic resin varnish and the preference of one over the other makes me smile.

   I used to get the choice when I lived in the US, but over here in the UK we have no choice. It's polyurethane or SFA. (SFA translates politely to er, uhm.... well..... nothing, if you're looking for the true meaning of the acronym) Spar varnish is available of course which is too soft for interior furniture really.

   So, if your choice for a piece of furniture here is varnish, poly it is. It comes out damn fine if you know what you're doing and put the stuff on right, and it's pretty durable too. It can be wiped, brushed or sprayed (although the latter is a bit messy I admit) and all these methods work well if, and I repeat, if you know how to apply it right.

   This 'plastic on the top' look that people complain about is down only to improper application, eg, slapped on carelessly, overworked with the brush, too thick a cover on each application, sags, runs, curtains, fat edges-- all down to sloppy techniques and impatience. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 18, 2006 11:36pm | #6

   >> This 'plastic on the top' look that people complain about is down only to improper application

   Richard, I agree with you, well mostly.  It is true that a thickly applied varnish--poly or non-poly--will have a "plastic" look.  It is the film thickness that causes this.  However, some think a thick, deep finish is the optimum to be achieved.  I don't and I bet you don't either.

   However, with few exceptions, consumer grade poly varnish does have a cloudy, grey look to it.  This look is exascerbated by film thickness.  Even waterborne poly tends to have this cloudy look.  True, there are a couple of poly varnishes that are more clear but for the most part, a polyurethane varnish will not be as clear as a non-poly varnish.Howie.........

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 19, 2006 10:45pm | #12

   No, I don't generally find a very thick varnish looks attractive, Howie. Two brushed on coats gives good protection and, at that thickness, the slight cloudiness that poly can develop if it's thicker I haven't found to be a problem.

   In my case I think what also helps is that I use gloss for the bottom coat or coats and apply only the top coat at the sheen I want which also keeps the flattening (and occluding) silica content down throughout the whole film.

   I still believe most peoples objection to varnish, alkyd or poly, is due to seeing the stuff poorly applied, and it seems to be poorly applied more often than it's skillfully applied from what I've seen of the bloody awful gash jobs I come across. People think prepping for and finishing is the easy bit. It's not if the job is done right. Those latter stages can take anywhere between 20% and 30% of all the job in a premium piece of furniture making or woodworking. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

4. 
   Rich14 | Jun 19, 2006 06:20pm | #11

   "I want a non-staining durable easily cleaned finish that brings out the best in the wood. Don't want to use a polyurethane that just sits on the wood"

   As has been explained in several posts you are seriously misunderstanding the nature of finishes and the "effects" that can be achieved. A good finisher can use just about any finish to achieve any "look" that is desired.

   Spray lacquer can be applied to look indistinguisable from a "rubbed oil finish" and will have far more protective qualities to boot.

   Your expectation that certain finishes are "in the wood," confering some special quality "that brings out the best in the wood," and that others "just sit on the wood" is simply wrong.

   The amount of penetration of "penetrating" finishes is exceedingly small. If you are finishing without staining the wood, apply a very blond shellac to develop figure to your liking and then apply Behlen's Rock Hard. Dilute the first coat 50% with mineral spirits, scuff sand evenly with 220 after 24 hrs then apply 3-5 coats full strength, letting each harden for 48 hrs with scuff sanding between coats to achieve a perfectly even, matte surface by the next to last coat. Let the last coat harden no less than a month, then rub it out to your liking.

   Or use one of the good quality water-borne polys, (Varathane is great) but use de-waxed shellac if you want, or no shellac. Apply the poly full strength (by spraying, brushing, padding, almost any way you want to do it) from the first (sealer) coat to the 4th or 5th coat, sanding in-between as above and giving the last coat a month to harden before rubbing it out.

   Without special processes, you can't apply a more durable, pretty finish than these 2 methods.

   Just forget any of the negatives that have been popularized by hacks who have used poly once, or who simply repeat the bad advice of others and who think they know the qualities of poly varnishes. Producing good work has always been, and always will be, a matter of learning one's tools and materials.

   Rich

1. 
   psmfisch | Jun 24, 2006 10:46am | #19

   I am just getting started, so wondered if you can tell me exactly what "scuff" and "rub out" mean?

1. 
   Rich14 | Jun 24, 2006 05:23pm | #20

   Scuff sanding refers to the treatment of the first few coats on the bare wood. Usually done with a firm rubber or felt sanding block. The first few coats go down wavy or lumpy. In addition, grain is raised, there are dust nibs in the coat, etc.Sand with light pressure so that the block knocks off the higher tips of the "hills and mountains" of the finish. The "valleys" will be mostly untouched and will remain shiny in the first coat. Don't try to sand enough to get a uniform appearance of the whole finished area. It can't be done. Especcially after the first finish coat, just go over the whole surface with nothing more than the weight of the block to take off the very highest places.Knock the finish out of the sandpaper frquently. Some finishes (varnish) clog it readily. Some, like shellac (especially with wax) or vinyl sealer are a joy to sand - no clogging.The height difference from the highest to lowest "elevations" of the finish may be less than a thousandth of an inch, but the sanding block will differentiate them immediately.As each layer is applied, hardens and is sanded, the scuff sanding achieves a more even appearance. The valleys become smaller and smaller areas and the even ground-glass appearance of the abraded plateaus grows.Scuff sanding should produce a completely dry sanding powder. If not, the finish is still too soft to work.A measure of how many finish coats to apply is often the number it takes to be able to easily sand to a surface that appears completely uniform ground glass-like, visually absolutely flat and feels silky smooth to the touch. The next coat is the final coat which is let to sufficiently harden for the final "rubbing out." For most varnishes, this means at least a month. For lacquers and shellac, a week will generally do, although I've had shellac finishes that needed longer.Rubbing out consists of using higher grades of abrasives on the fully-hardened finish, 4-0 steel wool (with or without lubricant), 400-1500 wet-or-dry with lubricant, up through automotive rubbing and polishing compounds, until the desired appearance is achieved.Rich

   Edited 6/24/2006 10:33 am ET by Rich14

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 24, 2006 06:16pm | #21

   Good description.  The rubbing out is so often neglected, yet it is the stage that makes it possible for an amateur working at home to achieve a finish fully comparable to the finishes on things from "talk in soft voices" high end shops, and dramatically better than stuff from low and mid-range furniture.  (And the furniture underneath the finish is likely to be better constructed too.)

1. 
   Rich14 | Jun 24, 2006 07:50pm | #22

   "talk in soft voices" high end shopsYeah, "real" ones are becoming rare.

2. 
   dgreen | Jun 24, 2006 07:55pm | #23

   High end always has been and always will be rare. Probably proportional to the ratio of high end patrons with high end incomes.
   Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb

2. 
   highfigh | Jun 25, 2006 11:16pm | #24

   There is a book by Jeff Jewitt, on finishing. Taunton published it and between this one and Bob Flexner's book, it's pretty much all covered.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   dwolsten | Jun 27, 2006 07:11am | #26

   Have you read Flexner's latest edition of his book? Are there any important differences? I have the first edition, and am just curious as to what I'm missing.

1. 
   highfigh | Jun 27, 2006 03:49pm | #27

   I have another book on finishing but haven't seen it since I moved the last time and don't remember if it was by Flexner or not. If it is by Flexner, it's definitely not the latest edition. Jeff Jewitt's book is pretty up-to-date, though. "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

   Edited 6/27/2006 8:53 am by highfigh

5. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 20, 2006 01:45am | #13

   I am finishing a hard wood table for children to eat at
   Lots of spilled food and drink!!

   HAY what Children do best God Love Em!....

   I did that for my two adopted 'China Grand Daughters' THEY are the best!

   I made a Table and a Bench for each (little girl sized!) I left the wood sort of 'as-is' ( BUT sanded really well! )

   Ever try to get a small child to sit still as you take out a sliver?

   NEVER works!

   I used a 'thinned' out POLY.. Works great.. If it gets really bad I wash it in bleach and then sand a 'bit' and a new coat for the next day!

   When they about 18 or so.. The top to thin from my sanding! They get a Dining Table!

6. 
   art | Jun 20, 2006 02:00am | #14

   Spray a pre cat lacquer and rub it out.  Art

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 20, 2006 02:56am | #15

   ART.. What do you think about Lackuer from a spray can? Just asking...

1. 
   art | Jun 20, 2006 04:10am | #16

   Spray can lacquer I believe is nitrocelluose lacquer which is not as durable as poly. I use mostly Magnamax which is a precat lacquer from M. L. Campbell. and is very durable, but requires spray equipment. Nitrocellouse lacquer dries fast and is easily repairable, however for a large surface, it would require lots of spray cans to get reasonabe film thickness. I would recommend Bob Flexners book "Undestanding Wood Finishing".  Art

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 26, 2006 08:41pm | #25

   I agree! But I'm not a fan of finishishing..???

7. 
   Little_Joe | Jun 21, 2006 06:18am | #17

   Have you thought of a rugged Epoxy finish?

   http://woodworkstuff.net/woodidxfin.html

   Down a ways to "Epoxy"...

   Finish it any way you want to bring out the wood... then preserve it with Epoxy.

   Test it first... might work...

1. 
   psmfisch | Jun 24, 2006 10:30am | #18

   Ta for the tip, I am just getting into WW and love getting all the knowledge I can from you guys.

   If ever in Australia come and see my furniture and my beautifully planted out rainforest gardens. Should be able to use wood in 10 more years(including red cedar)