I bought a 2 hp 240 volt dust collector 1550 cfm with 12.3″ static pressure.
It’s weak, I can’t run a 12″ board thru the planner without clogging up the hose and spending too much time unglogging it..
it barely keeps up with the shavings my shaper makes..
was I too cheap? should I have bought a bigger one or is there a potential problem I need to solve?
Replies
A true 2 HP collector should be sufficient for single machine use. I suspect you're getting long, stringy shavings clogging at the DC inlet grate. Many users have either added a pre-separator, or cut out the grate. My DC came without a grate, and I've never had a problem.
I'm running a 4 inch flexible hose without a gate. I go from the dust collector to the seperator and then to the planner...
Yeh long stringy shavings are what comes off the planner and they are what is clogging.
4 inch line should provide plenty of velocity to keep things moving. If the shaving are making it to the fan (and you are using a separator), your separator isn't working. The lid to the separator must be absolutely air tight. Make sure the intact and exhaust ports on the lid don't allow the debris to easily make it from one to the other. The intake typically has an elbow to force the debris down and away from the exhaust.
When working properly, shaving will not pass through the separator, (unless it gets full) and therefore not be able to clog in the grate in front of the fan.
--Rob
It doesn't sound like a 2 HP 240VAC is too small. What size hose are you using? How many bends to the dust collector?
Planers make more shavings than dust. I noticed that my shop vac get clogged fast on my Hitachi because the shavings tangle up with each other. They come out as sort of curly-Qs. I solved most of the problem by adding a 30 gallon trash can with a cyclone lid after the planer. The larger shavings get caught in it and then don't clog the line.
Hope this helps.
Edited 3/22/2005 5:42 pm ET by Len
As the other posts said you need to separate the heavy chips from the dust. Buy or make a separartor lid. They are not expensive, use a metal trash can . The can is positioned between the collector hose and the machine.The heavy chips from a planer fall into the can, light dust continues on to the bags.
mike
Yeh, I use a seperator.. I think it's a 30 gallon plastic garbage can. the vacumm has enough grunt that it can collapse the can if I plug up the 4 inch hose..
That's why i said a metal can. If the separator lid does not fit well on the can , maybe that is the problem?You might be losing vaccumn.
mike
I don't think a trashcan separator will work with that much air flow - the chips simply won't settle out, they just get sucked right through. Bill Pentz mentions that on his site.Most 2HP DCs come with a wye-connector on them, going from the 6" or 5" inlet to two 4" connections. If you are using that, and a single 4" hose, then you are probably starving the DC for air, as the other fellow suggested. Also the wye causes a sort of "dead spot" that tends to collect the large shavings from a planer. My recommendation would be to take the wye off and use 5" or 6" diameter hose, whichever your DC will take, all the way to the planer hood. If that still doesn't solve the problem, then you need a better separator. You might actually need a real cyclone, which would solve your problem for good. You could build this yourself for a fraction of the cost of a commercial one. Check out Bill Pentz' website for plans, and tons of information about how DC actually works.
http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/dc4dummies.cfmBest go there quickly, it sounds as if he may not be able to keep that site up permanently."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
That's plenty large. Are you starving the unit for air? The duct/hose has to carry a pretty fair volume to keep the chips moving. You could try partially opening a damper just upstream or downstream to make sure there is enough air to keep the chip suspended.
Is your planer hood attached properly?
The fan is not running backwards, is it? A fan running backwards will still pump air, but at a much lower volume. I don't think there is a way to make it run backwards without messing around in the pothead, which I hope you didn't do.
Frenchy,
Metal garbage can; rim the inside perimeter of the seperator with a thin insulating foam material to create a better seal; and, use at least a 5" line.
Doug
Everything from the motor to the planner is 4 inch
I choose a rubbermaid can after I noticed that the seam in a metal one would leak.. The lid is nice and air tight close up the hose and the can sucks flat..
It is a 20 planner so today I tried to cut less each pass and that seemed to help some..
Dear frenchy,If it's clogging at the hose, that's the input, meaning it's not a matter of separations at a can.For a 20" planer, would say you'd need a 6" hose.What the planer port has, that'd be a good indication of what it needs to connect-to.If you were to increase the power, still the small hose would clog.Good luck.-mbl-
You didn't say where the clogging occurs. Is it in the line between the planer and the separator, or between the separator and the DC, or at the DC inlet?
If it's clogging in the 4" hose, then you probably need bigger hose. If it's clogging at the DC inlet, then the separator is not working, probably because it is way too small and not acting as a cyclone.
One thing you might try - this seems counter-intuitive and contradicts other advice you have gotten here, but try it anyway - is to allow air to leak into the line between the separator and the DC. If the chips are going through the separator, then you need to reduce the air flow through the separator, not increase it. You would probably need to add a blast gate in the line just after the separator and fiddle with it to get the air flow just right. You need enough suction and velocity at the planer to bring the chips into the separator, but not so much that you pull them right through."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
It's clogging the hose between the planner and the seperator.. I am using the factory dust collector at the plannerand it's as tight as a ducks butt..
For a 20" planner you should be shooting for at least 700 CFM at the machine. Now we start seeing the issue. You have a blower that will generate around 1500 CFM at free air (0" of resistance). Stick on some bags (we'll assume they are very large and completely clean), a trash can separator, and some flex hose (let's say about 10 feet at 6" diameter). I'm estimating the amount of static pressure (SP) for such a setup to be between 5" and 6" of water column. I don't know the fan curve on that machine but I would be very surprised if it could pull more than 800 CFM at that level of resistance. Now that is under the assumption that the outlet from the blower, the exhaust from the blower to the bags, the hood on the planner and the separator are all 6" (at least). If either these are less than 6" then the resistance will be higher and CFM lower. You basically need to run 6" all the way.
4" pipe is way to small for a 20" planner. You may be only pulling 400 CFM with all 4" flex (I'm guessing about 7" of SP with an all 4" duct system). I can see how that planner would clog up the line with a heavy cut on let's say a 12" board.
Here are some ways to improve your DC performance. Keep the DC on a tight "lease" so to speak. Minimize the length of your runs. Substitute rigid pipe for the flex on any straight runs (Flex creates a lot of resistance). Make the runs as straight as possible (this includes the flex). The trash can separator probably adds around 2" to 3" of resistance to the ducting. If modifying the above doesn't give satisfactory results, remove the separator to reduce resistance and increase CFM. (BTW - Cyclones typically run around 4" to 5" of resistance so that is not a route you want to take with your blower).
Many have found difficulty using trash can separators with 6" lines running into and out of the separator. The velocity and volume is high enough that the separator isn't large enough to allow the air stream to slow down enough to provide adequate debris separation. Increasing the exhaust pipe to 7" or 8" will help but this will require you to build your own lid/separator.
If the above doesn't work, I don't have any other suggestions other than going back and replacing the blower with a larger capacity unit. If you do this, I would determine your DC needs by working backwards. Determine the CFM needs at the machine, determine what your duct run will be so you'll know the resistance you have to overcome. Then all you need to do is look at a DC that has a fan curve that will pull the CFM at the estimated resistance and you're all set.
Good luck,
--Rob
Great post Rob.I'm in the design stages of my DC systemLet's say I get
1500 cfm vac
6" smooth pipe - 20-25 feet -straight shot (few or no bends)
trash can separator with 6" inlet/outletBlast gates at every machine - jointer, table saw, chop saw, bandsaw, planer. 12" Planer is closest to the DC 6" jointer is farthest. Slinky hose to each machine no more than 6 feet, 4" diameter to jointer, planer, and TS, 4" or 3" to bandsaw and chop saw.What happens if I open only the blast gate to the band saw - does the rest of my system collapse?Thanks,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark wrote:
Let's say I get1500 cfm vac6" smooth pipe - 20-25 feet -straight shot (few or no bends)trash can separator with 6" inlet/outlet
Blast gates at every machine - jointer, table saw, chop saw, bandsaw, planer. 12" Planer is closest to the DC 6" jointer is farthest. Slinky hose to each machine no more than 6 feet, 4" diameter to jointer, planer, and TS, 4" or 3" to bandsaw and chop saw.
What happens if I open only the blast gate to the band saw - does the rest of my system collapse?
Depends on what type of pipe you are running. If you run S&D, Schd 40, or 24g or larger pipe, you're not going to collapse the system. Your may even be ok with 26 gauge round metal pipe since the DC you mention isn't very big.
Use a sturdy material for your separator and lid (read no soft plastic trash cans). Wood or metal would be fine.
I'd recommend looking at Bill Pentz's web site. There are a lot of things to consider. The DC you are indicating is going to be on the small side for 20' runs, using 6" pipe and 4" hoods. Then if you throw the separator in there, that DC just doesn't have the umph to meet the dust collection requirements for the machines you have. Bill's site has recommended machine CFMs as well as a Static pressure calculator that helps you determine what type of resistance your duct work will create. Air velocity within the ductwork must stay above 3000fpm on horizontal runs if you don't want debris settling in the pipes. 4000fpm is the number you shoot to stay above on vertical runs so all the debris will be lifted up the pipe. For 6" pipe that means you need to flow about 600 CFM for the horizontal or about 800 CFM for vertical runs. When you choke the run with a 4" pipe you drive up the resistance and your DC's ability to pull enough CFM to keep the velocities up.
Identify the CFM needs for your machines. Plan your duct system. Then you'll know what DC you will need. If you try to pick a DC then just pipe it to the machines, you may be disappointed in the collection. If you take Bill's approach you won't every be dissatisfied with the collection.
Now if you were to take that 1500 "free air" CFM DC and wheel it around from machine to machine with a separator for the jointer and planer, I'd say you wouldn't have any problems. Put a good needle felt dust bag on it and your set. To me, that DC seems a bit small for a stationary ducted system with 20' runs.
Of course my approach (greatly influenced by Bill Pentz) to DC is to provide ideal CFM and dust collection at the source. My approach isn't for everyone. Hopefully, Bill's site will provide you enough information for you to make a decision on what approach you want to take.
Good luck,
--Rob
Thanks Rob,
I need to use flex hose because all my equipment is on wheels, mmm 1500 sq.ft. and I still can't set equipment up permanently!PlusI have at least 15,000 bd.ft. of wood outside in the rain!
Anyway I'll stop snivelling and try to get some of that semi ridged aluminum dryer duct hose That plus the 5 inch size that I can duct the planner for should help a bit but I'll lose the seperator and that means more frequent bag emptying.
Right now I can load up the 30 gallon trash can in a couple of part time hours once I use the bags I'll be changing them every 45 minutes.
Frenchy,
Sounds like you have a lot of planing. Have you considered bypassing the separator and bags when you use the planer and take the chips directly outside to a collection bin?
Doug
I'd be willing to bet that a 20" planer is going to need more airflow than a single 4" hose can provide. Suggest going to 5 or 6 inch from the planer to the dc, without any reduction. Keep your duct runs as short as possible. If, as you say, reducing cutting depth helps, its another indcator of insufficient airflow. Replacing the hose, which reduces airflow, with rigid ducting may help as well.
Is it three phase?? If it is, it's wired backwards, just as another poster has mentioned. IIRC, when I worked at another shop years ago, we had a 1phase collector wired backwards. It is possible... but not sure about the new motors now adays
Some people say too much air flow. Some say too little air flow. Too many cooks.
I suspect your whole system is poorly designed.
You might start with your transition fitting from your planer to your pipe, but ...
I expect that your system is so far from proper you will be unable to determine what changes are improvements.
Frenchy, check out the Oneida company website http://www.oneida-air.com/ for more info on proper DC system design. They sell all the hardware and will custom design a DC system for you. I bought one of their cyclones and built my own system using a 1.5HP Dayton motor and a separate fan with upgraded impeller from Oneida as well. Never hooked my planer up to it due to shop configuration but it worked well for all other tools.
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