Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 19, 2005 05:43am | #1

   "...what is the best ... dust collection system I can install
   so I don't have to clean up the chips/dust after every project ?"   If you're focused on the dust and chips you can see without a microscope, you're concentrating on the wrong thing.  The purpose of a DC system is to protect your lungs and other breathing components, and it's the superfine dust that causes the long-term, most dangerous problems.

   What size bandsaw do you have that it requires 1000 CFM for collection.  I use Bill Pentz's site for most of my info, and he has a chart from the American Air Filtration Corporation.  The max it shows a bandsaw needing is 700 CFM, split between 2 ports, when using a 2" blade.

   Which cyclone systems have you looked at?  Oneida and PSI are well-known makers.  Grizzly has a new selection of cyclones also.

   I'm hoping to get by with a 1.5HP Jet cannister unit by concentrating my tools close-by and using rigid ducting as much as possible, hoses as little as possible.  I would think with a 2HP or 3HP system, you'd have way more than enough to take care of your needs.

   PS:  I think maybe the 1000 CMF figure was for the DC, not the air movement at the bandsaw.

   PPS:  You should plan on getting an air filter too, like a JDS, Jet or Delta, hang from the ceiling.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/18/2005 10:46 pm ET by forestgirl

2. 
   RandMCapozzi | Apr 19, 2005 04:32pm | #2

   As Forestgirl mentioned, Bill Pentz's site is a good starting point to get some knowledge about dust collection. If you don't have the interest or time to design a ducting system yourself, there are some DC vendors that (for a fee) will design it for you. I know that Oneida will give you a credit for that design fee towards the purchase of a system from them.

   Don't know what your budget is but Oneida just came out with a nice unit called the Dust Gorilla. It is based on their very nice (and a bit expensive) 2HP commerical cyclone but is priced competitively with the new (but not yet available) Grizzly cyclones. I think its running around $1000 delivered to your door. That's of course without any piping. This system would be my top pick for purchasing a cyclone DC. PSI, Woodsucker, and Grizzly also make cyclones available for non-commercial outfits.

   You don't need a cyclone for health considerations. They are nice from a maintenance/up keep perspective. What ever type of DC you go with, you should look for a DC with at least a 12" fan. These will likely have 2HP motors and ideally will have 6" inlet/outlets on the blower. If you keep to that as a minimum, you should be ok. Of course, duct runs can make or break the DC performance so figure out the layout first THEN pick the DC. If you can get a DC to pull 800 CFM at the end of your "worst" run (highest resistance), you should enjoy excellent fine dust collection.

   Oh, I should also warn you against the CFM claims made by most DC manufacturers (Oneida, Woodsucker, and the most recent Grizzly cyclones excluded). They typically include free air CFM ratings. That's the blower without any fittings or bags. Expect half that rating when you actually try and use it in your workshop. 

   For filtration look for good quality needle felt bags with a filtration of less than 1 micron. You can also look at cartridges but they are a bit high maintenance to keep them clean on single stage DCs (without a separator). The pleats clog very quickly with the chips and dust and are more difficult to clean than the filter bags.

   --Rob

1. 
   rosasco | Apr 19, 2005 11:32pm | #4

   Rob, ForestGirl, Doug,Great information - and greatly appreciated ! I have the LT18 Bandsaw.
   You're probably right that it's recommending a 1000 CFM unit rather than
   measured at the saw, but it is a mon-star of a bandsaw.I did check out Bill Pentz's site and found it's layout and links confusing.
   Seems to send you round in circles.Rob, were you saying that the Penn States cyclone is better of the Oneida
   was better? 2 HP sounds like a good number.

1. 
   rosasco | Apr 20, 2005 01:16am | #5

   I took a look at oneida and found this product:http://www.oneida-air.com/products/systems/gorilla/main.htmIs this a good unit ? I'm wondering how loud it is and also, I assume
   it's a 2 stage unit (which I read is better) but it doesn't say in the
   ad ?Thanks again.

1. 
   RandMCapozzi | Apr 20, 2005 04:49pm | #7

   Rosasco,

   The Oneida Gorilla was just introduced. It is basically their 2HP Commercial unit with a different motor (perhaps import) a bit lighter guage metal in a few places, and a different filter. Oh it's also yellow instead of white. :-)

   The Gorilla was likely introduced to directly compete with the soon to be release Grizzly cyclones. The Grizzly cyclones had comperable performance with the Oneida's but at a lower price point.

   The Gorilla is therefore a 2-stage DC or cyclone. Material enters the DC and is separated. The heavy stuff (chips, blocks, large dust) falls into the dust bin under the cone, the lighter stuff is pulled up the middle of the cone, past the backwards inclined impellor and into the filter. The filter then captures the dust (based on the filter's rating).

   Noise. Typically the noise level is based on the amount of air a DC moves. The bigger the DC, the more noise it will make (generally speaking). I have the 2HP commercial and when it is running and I stand right next to it, I have to speak in a slightly elevated level to talk to someone next to me. I think Oneida says its about 75dB at 10' or so. Most of the noise comes from the DC exhaust (filter area) and it is a rather low frequency noise unlike the high pitched scream you get from a vac. I don't need to wear noise protection when the DC is running.

   The noise is not significant when compared to other WW tools during operation. A TS, router, ROS, MS, and CS are all significantly louder than the DC is. The noise from the DC, however, can be mitigated if you like. A closet can be built around the DC and you can also buy/build mufflers for the exhaust side. The muffler (similar in concept to a car muffler) is placed between the blower and the filter. It can drop the dB by 2 or 3 points.

   If your worried about the noise upstairs or outside the shop, don't. It's not that loud. My shop is in the basement and when I turn on the DC, you can just hear/feel a slight rumble in the room directly above the DC.

   If the Gorilla performs like the 2HP commercial (and there is no reason to think otherwise since they are so close in specs) it would be an excellent DC and likely exceed your DC needs (not a bad thing since it give you room to grow).

   You probably already know this but this particular DC (and most in this class) runs on 220 so make sure you have that in your shop or can bring it in the shop. I run mine on a dedicated 220 circuit with a 20amp breaker.

   Also be aware of the height of these machines. Mine is about 8.5' tall. The Oneida web site is pretty good on the specs.

   --Rob

1. 
   rosasco | Apr 26, 2005 11:42pm | #10

   I talked to Oneida and they said the same thing you said Rob. One exception
   was that they said the steel was the same gauge throughout. Big difference
   was the filter itself and the motor was an import (just as you had said).Now the big question is: Should I get a component dust collector (filter inside)
   or not ?The smaller space footprint is attractive -but- if the filter needs to be cleaned
   often, and is difficult to get at in the component configuration, the space savings
   might not be worth it.Anybody have experience with the component vs external filter ?

2. 
   RandMCapozzi | Apr 28, 2005 01:00am | #11

   Well that is an easy decision. Get the external filter. The internal is a pain in the very large shorts to maintain. The extra space taken up by the external filter is really little and provides additional silencing for the noise.

   --Rob

3. 
   Bryanlord | Apr 28, 2005 10:13am | #13

   I can't speak of the internal filter but I can give you an idea of the extrenal filter needs.  I just cut 32 sheets of 3/4 mdf plywood into 12 inch strips and then cut the strips to length.  I filled the bottom 35 gal drum twice with the waste.  Tonight I checked the dust container below the external filter expecting to find fine dust from the MDF.  I had to run my finger across the bottom of the container to tell there was anything there at all.  So very little small particulates are leaving the cyclone (or at least settling to the bottom of the filter).

   I also have the filter monitor (gauge) which gives an indication of when the filter needs to be cleaned.  The reading didn't change at all from the initial, perfectly clean filter, to this point even after processing quite a bit of MDF plywood.

   If this is indicative of the cyclones with internal filters then you won't need to clean it all that often.

   When I said earlier that my shop was about the size of yours, I meant your expanded shop.  Mine is 24 x 24.

4. 
   RandMCapozzi | Apr 28, 2005 07:02pm | #15

   Hey Bryan,

   Have you tried doing a little back flushing through that filter to see what happens? I cut just one sheet of MDF up and also had very little dust in the dust can. However, when I backflushed the filter with about 20psi of air and waited a few minutes, the bottom of the dust can had quite a bit of dust. All the dust initially collects in the filter pleats not the bottom of the dust can due to the air flow in the filter. MDF is the worst offender I've come across. The dust particles are so fine that many more of them get by the collector than regular wood dust.

   --Rob

5. 
   Bryanlord | Apr 29, 2005 04:34am | #16

   Hi Rob,

   Totally agree that MDF is wicked stuff!  No, I haven't backflushed the filter and I have no doubt that I would find bunches of fine particles that are in the filter pleats. 

   The point I was trying to make though was that even having processed that amount of MDF the backpressure gauge had shown no significant increase so the filters were no where near plugged.  Meaning it doesn't appear that you have to clean the filters all that often. 

   Now it could be that the filter loading and backpressure are not linear in nature.  I can't answer that question yet because I just installed the system and the 32 sheets of plywood and enough oak for 18 bookcases (3' x 7')  face frames are all that I have processed so far.  I did mill the oak to 3/4" from rough 5/4 planks so there was bunches of big particles also (70 gallons worth).

   Granted, the big honking external filter has a bit more filter square footage (understaement) than an internal filter but I don't think you will be cleaning those everytime you want to use the machine either. 

   If floor space is an issue, then I personally would strongly consider the internal filter version as an alternative.

    

   Bryan

6. 
   DougF | Apr 28, 2005 05:29pm | #14

   Rosaco,

   I have the internal filter with the muffler.  I need to clean the filter about every 100 gallons of chips/dust or when I have emptied the the drum 3 times.  Of course, this really depends on chips vs. dust.  If most of the waste is from the planers/jointer, I have goner as long as 5 or 6 drum-full before having the clean the the filter.  Cleaning the filter is easy; re-assembling the parts is easier with 2 people.  I got such a great deal on this unit that I never stopped to ask the question of which was better.  Were I doing this again, I would get the external bag. 

   I am very impressed with the Onieda product and the design and support services.  If the price-point variance is a major factor, the Grizzly unit looks to be an excellent alternative.  Granted, the motor may fail well before the Onieda but you can buy several motors for price difference. 

   Doug  

2. 
   Adze | Apr 24, 2005 02:05am | #9

   Rosaco, in a word, Oneida.  I have a 1.5 hp and it's quiet enough and very effective. 

3. 
   TonLoc | Apr 29, 2005 09:15pm | #17

   I found a great cyclone separator for 140 bucks shipping included from this guy in upstate New York. Works fantastic and is very well made. It works with your dust collector to filter out the big stuff so the bag doesn't need to be emptied as much. My next step is to upgrade the bags on my collector to shaker felt.

    I found it on ebay doing a search for cyclone. Total with my dust collector this system came out about half the price of the comparable sized oneida and it performs as well or better. Hand made cyclone for dirt cheap... you can't beat it.

    Check it out... I just found out he has a web site:

   http://www.cycloneseparator.com   I think that's it anyway.

    

    

2. 
   RandMCapozzi | Apr 20, 2005 04:20pm | #6

   "Rob, were you saying that the Penn States cyclone is better of the Oneidawas better? 2 HP sounds like a good number."

   Hmm. The Oneida 2HP commercial or Gorilla will pull more CFM than the Penn State 2HP IF (big IF) you make use of the Oneida's larger 7" inlet by using some 7" piping for part of your main. If you just neck down to 6" immediately, then performance wise the two machines will likely be rather close (the PS can pull harder at higher resistance). I give the nod to the Oneida, however. I like their impellor and filter design better than the Penn State cyclones. After looking at the PSI and Oneida, I felt that the Oneida was higer quality in terms of fit and finish. Oh and the good folks at Oneida are extremely helpful and will give you free duct designing with the purchase of one of their machines. The duct design includes detailed parts lists also.

   --Rob

   Edited 4/20/2005 9:51 am ET by Rob

3. 
   forestgirl | Apr 22, 2005 03:43am | #8

   "I did check out Bill Pentz's site and found it's layout and links confusing."  Yep, I know.  I printed out "Dust Collection Basics" and "Ducting" for leisurely reading.  Those'll take care of most of your knowledge-needs probably.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

3. 
   DougF | Apr 19, 2005 04:39pm | #3

   Rosasco,

   I don't know what your budget is for this is but I installed an Oneida 2hp cyclone and their duct system for about $1,800 with 7 ports.  It is a super system and really deals with dust, particularly from my stationary drum sander.  There is a significant difference in the quality of the Penn States cyclone and the Oneida, especially in the quality of the motor, the welds and the heavier gauge of the steel.  But, it costs more.  I can't speak to the other cyclones since I haven't had an opportunity to inspect them.  For ducting, you can go less expensively using thin-wall irrigation PVC commercially available but not in the box stores.  Much cheaper and more effective for 3hp and under systems.  Were I doing it over, that is what I would use.  The pipe comes in sizes up to 12".  One point: if you do a lot of bandsawing, especially resawing, the dust collector becomes less efficient since since a significant amount of the really fine dust is not carried down into the dust port area below the lower guides.   

   Doug

4. 
   Bryanlord | Apr 28, 2005 05:52am | #12

   I just installed a 3HP Oneida cyclone in a shop about the size of yours.  While 3HP is probably overkill at sea level it isn't at 7400' where I live (25% less air).  The system works fantastic through the ductwork to each machine.

   Prior to getting the new sucker, I was using a Jet DC1200 and moving it from machine to machine.  This worked fairly well for the 1st 18 months or so.  Then I started getting lazy and found I only had 1 or two cuts to make on the table saw so wouldn't bother with it.  Then I only had a little to do on the BS so didn't bother.  Never, ever ran the jointer, planer, or drum sander without DC though.

   I strongly recommend the ducted system, but the portables will work if you are conscientious about using them!