I have a big MDF project to do, with cutting and machining both in the workshop and on site. The amount of dust this stuff kicks up is incredible – one 8′ cut fills the dustbag on my Skilsaw, (but I then rigged up a connection to a BFO vacuum cleaner) and when I showered last night I reckoned I could market the contents of my nose as wood filler.
Obviously I need breathing protection. In the workshop I have a standard bag filter extractor on the tablesaw and shaper, but there’s a lot of small particles that get through this, plus all the dust from routing etc.
So, what does the panel think? I don’t reckon paper masks much – at least not the ones I’ve seen. The rubber cartridge masks are good, but horrible4 in hot weather. Especially if one wears glasses. Has anyone used one of the space helmet things such as the Trend Airshiled or Airace?
Replies
Tim,
Have a look at Thread 24294
Lataxe
Hey Tim,
A winter MDF project is what finally pushed me to get a REAL dust collector for the shop. (Three nights with nosebleeds were enough) I use it all the time, an Oneida 3hp unit. In the shop it will save your equipment, your clothes, your lungs, pretty much everything. Do it. In the field is a little harder, but I do know that by having the dust collector in the shop, I machine everything I can, there. In particular MDF. But, in the field, I use a combination of vacuums for the tools that accept them, sander, biscuit joiner, etc. I also use fans to blow the stuff away, under my tablesaw & behind the chopsaw and when practical, router and circular saw. For all (ALL) MDF cuts in the field, I wear a good silicone rubber cartridge mask, with glasses and it is fine. I am a sweater, so I appreciate where you are coming from, but I imagine that the full face deal is worse, in particular with fogging, but I never used one, so what do I know. That is what I do.
John
Hey Tim,
I'm also in the middle of an MDF (dustwood) project and my solution was this. There is no escaping the dust devil but you can minimize it as best you can with the obvious tools available ie; masks, dust collector etc etc. So I cut away, assemble and sand until everything it's ready for finishing. Then I spend 2-3 hours doing the big major clean up before I get the spray booth ready and then I turn on the fans, blow the dust off the walls, ceilings and clean the the spray booth last. There is no real perfect solution but rather you must try to minimize it as best you can. The only good thing about MDF.... well you can hide mistakes easily...
Carpenter5
Tim, your question is certainly a valid one and desires more than just a quick response. I would suggest that you go to Bill Pentz's website and spend the time to read it from end to end. If you are serious about controlling dust in the shop and we all should be, this is the advise that we all need.
billpentz.com
Good Luck and watch those fingers.
From the minig industry we have learned that:
1) extract dust at the source (dust collector-shop vac)
2)Wear an appropriate nuisance dust mask for very heavy dust moments
3) Provide a source of clean air that moves past the workspace and carries the dust out of the shop
I am a pulmonologist. I have seen 10 lung cancers since 1985 in non-smokers. 5 were in woodworkers.
Frank
That's a scary stat. To aid us in risk assessment, were these guys pro's, weekenders... ?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Most were hobbyists who did alot of work in small shops.
Sobering. Thanks for the report.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Frank: sobering is right. yo. I take dust precautions seriously but now even more so. thanks for the info.
PMM
I have dust collection on everything and a pleated paper filter on my DC. All seems good except for freehand routing - so I just bought a DeWalt router with dust collection through the plinge rod. Works great.My question: I have never noticed any sign of dust in my 'nose-blowing' secretions. Is this a sign that my shop air is significantly clean?Jerry
Your post confirms one of my biggest risk to woodworking, just as big as cutting fingers. Few woodworkers appreciate the dangers of what they can't see.It disturbs me that in all the ww articles in FWW (and others) that the eye and ear protection can be seen, but never breathing. Only one wworker, Yuen Chan, wore a mask for his article. This just adds to the cavalier attitude towards this risk, me thinks.
You are right of course.
Someone posted about the Rachal mask. I actually has one and it works great. I think 3M markets them now. The price has probably doubled since I bought mine around 1995.
Frank
Dr. Biscardi,
Thank you for speaking up.
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My pulmonary specialist is also a woodworker and the fellow who pushed me and kept pushing until I finally shared out what I learned about fine dust collection, plus shared my cyclone and blower designs so others could avoid problems similar to my own. He told me the odds of getting cancer are tiny compared to almost all developing with typical hobbyist fine dust exposures over a decade or two other ENT and pulmonary problems from fine wood dust exposure.
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My doctor added to his interview questions for new patients whether or not they or a family member is a hobbyist woodworker. He says far too many end up being either woodworkers themselves or close family members. In my case he asked me to get a medical air quality test run on both my home and shop. As a prior director of one of <!----><!----><!---->California<!----><!---->'s air quality programs, I got spoiled by my inspector who spent a whole day educating me. Having been out of my shop for three months, my shop and home tested just fine initially. Turning on my "best" rated cyclone and upgraded fine dust bag immediately spewed huge amounts of dust filling my shop with fine airborne particles. A little woodworking filled my garage shop with enough airborne dust it failed both the OSHA 15-minute standard and the 8 hour tests. When I showed off my fancy face mask respirator my inspector laughed and walked inside the attached utility room. Just cracking the door between my shop and home filled that utility room with enough dust to fail the medical air quality particulate counts. Worse, my home heating and cooling system ensures this finest dust will cycle for months before it breaks down or dissipates. He made it very clear I needed to work outside, or fix my shop to collect the fine dust at the source then get rid of it because a mask only helps when it is on.
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To collect at the source I needed to fix my tool hoods so they did not blow the fine dust all over before it could be collected, move more than double the airflow that my cyclone provided, and then get rid of the fine dust. My inspector said the best way to get rid of the fine dust was to use my cyclone and just blow the output outside with no air returned to my shop, just like the big commercial firms. Heating is not a problem as radiant heaters will keep all but the coldest climates warm in spite of the loss of our air. Cooling is a problem. He said filtering is a problem because current cyclone designs were never built to provide ample separation for good filtering unless the filters are made huge.
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That launched me into trying to fix my cyclone. With help from many friends we made lots of improvements that are now included on most current cyclones, but we still ended up putting more than half the fine dust back into the filters. With wood made up of large amounts of silica better known as glass that trees use for strength, if we let our fine filters get too dirty the pressure will force these fine sharp particles to cut and tear their way right through our fine filter fibers. That is why I went back to the drawing board and came up with my own cyclone design. I give those plans away for free or if you are willing a donation to help with the overhead of keeping up my web pages. <!---->Ed Morgano<!----> built one of these cyclones to help protect his son and himself. It worked so well Ed built one out of the same clear plastic used for police bullet proof riot shields to better see how the cyclone worked. Ed shared and soon was loaded with orders from people who wanted similar units. When Ed asked me if he could make these for sale I strongly supported him as many don't want to do the metal work to make their own. Ed started Clear Vue Cyclones and the response has been most positive. He is kind enough to pay me a little off each sale and I am most appreciative, but by no means getting wealthy.
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Anyhow, it is really nice to hear a professional speak out on these hazards.
Hi Tim, I recently acquired a Racal full-face 'helmet thing' and it is brilliant. It blows a constant stream of filtered air down the face and the air exits below the chin through small holes. I find that I can breath normally without the restriction of uncomfortable goggles and respirator masks clamped to my face and the Racal helmet is relatively light so that it's not a chore to wear.
If you're shopping for a 'helmet thing', be sure to try them on - some are heavier than others and unfortunately the Australian Triton brand item is both heavy and cumbersome - it's very effective but akin to towing a box trailer with a diesel locomotive.
I hope you find a solution that works for you.
freestyler
The only down side of the Rachal system is that it is very bad to break wind with the thing on as the clear air intake fits over the small of the back.The first time I wore the mask I thought the septic tank had exploded or something!
Frank
Yes but can't you add a carbon filter?
Tim,
I am very allergic to sawdust and I use the Trend Airshield. I also have the Triton Powered Resperator. The Triton is bulky due to the battery is on a belt and gets in the way.
The Trend works very well. The filtering system is pretty good. Due to my allergy, I wear a 3M model 8511 particle mask as well. I wear glasses and do not have fog problems. The trend circulates enough air to keep everything clear.
Ross Nooney - Seattle
Thanks to all - I have a dsut extractor in the workshop which serves the combi saw/planer/shaper. However it has a bag filter and the fine stuff blows through.
I've just bought a twin cartridge mask which seems fine apart from staggering around like Capt Nemo, but the dust does seem to linger. On site I'me using a BFO Makita 9" circular saw to cut up the one-inch boards, and that has a VAX plugged into it. That collects an amazing amount of dust but there's still a lot floating round. I think with an unlimited budget I'd go for an air cleaner in the shop, independent of the extractor and the helmet on site - and for routing, sanding etc. Or I could just avoid MDF in future! Most of my work is with local wood - oak, ash, chestnut
I have one of those air cleaners suspended in the middle of my garage. I can testify that it makes a huge difference, clearing the air pretty darn well. I have no way of telling its effectiveness on the really fine micron-sized bits, though.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Dear Tim,
That really fine dust that you mention is the stuff you want to eliminate. That is the stuff that will hurt you. I have my dust collector exhausting out side plus I have an air cleaner in the shop. the air-cleaner makes a HUGE difference as mentioned by another. Not expensive, perhaps $500.00. As far as the bags go on your dust collector, perhaps you could switch to one micron.John
John,
I have my dust collector exhausting outside
If you don't mind me asking, how is this working out for you? Do you collect the dust outside or just blow it out into the open air? I have been considering doing this myself with a cyclone and just letting the dust blow outside into the air, I live on 13 acres so the dust is not going to bother any of the neighbors. I have an air cleaner as well and I find that it does a great job also. Just wondering how others were doing it.
Thanks,
Lee
Dear Lee,
I have the cyclone inside with a barrel to collect the bulk of the material, but rather than have a filter or bag inside the shop, the final exhaust terminates outside. In retrospect, it may of been better to have the system just blow everything outside, but, the barrel is no big deal to empty. I can tell you that the cyclone that I have is remarkably efficient as very little dust gets exhausted. I have a hood that covers the exhaust and points the airstream towards the ground and can tell you that even when there is snow on the ground, which will show everything, almost nothing makes it past the cyclone, unless I let it overfill. If there is a drawback it is in the winter when I am pumping all the warm air out of the shop. I heat with a wood burning stove (nice) and I try to make sure that I have a window cracked so that I don't suck the smoke back down the pipe. Truth be told, I have run the dust collector without a window cracked with no ill effect. I guess my barn has enough air leaks that "make up" air is not a problem. Other than that, it works out very well.
If I had to do it again, I think that I would of built a little room, outside the shop to enclose the cyclone, just to eliminate the noise and it would keep all of the dust outside, but I am splitting hairs. The cyclone is not that loud, certainly nothing like the planer, so it's no big deal. Never satisfied I guess!John
John,
thanks for the info. What brand of cyclone do you have (and size), and what kind of machinery is hooked up to it, if you don't mind me asking?
Lee
Dear Lee,
I have a 3 hp Oneida with a "Long Ranger 3" remote start. Works great as long as I can find the remote! Oneida is a dynamite company, they will design the system for you and then you can buy as much or as little from them. I bought the whole package. They even included self tapping screws (That WORKED-!!) plus a GOOD set of plier type things to "corrugate" the end of the ductwork as needed. they may have the "snap" type now so that may be better. The system they designed is beautiful, I can have three machines going at once because they balance the system with different size ducts so that if you have more than one blast gate open, it won't just draw from the closest one, but draws from them all. I can't say enough about the cyclone, except get some help for the install as it is big and heavy. I have one PM66 TS, planer, jointer, miter saw, and floor sweep. the floor sweep is cool because you can just shove all the dust to one (or more) points in the shop and the dust collector eats it up. As a side benefit, my kids LOVE to sweep up, and I mean LOVE IT, so that they can turn on the dust collector. Totally cool! I had my system designed with extra capacity so that I could add to it. Oneida will assist with this as well, even if I don't buy the ductwork from them. Let me know if I can spout some more!!Best,John
Hi John,
Thanks for the info. It sounds like your shop is a mirror image of mine, I have a PM66, planer, and jointer, and would like to add a drum sander down the line as well. Now I have a good idea on where to start!.
Thanks,
Lee
You got it! Good Luck,John
My DC remote has a keychain, so I keep it permanently clipped to my shop apron, which I always wear anyway.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Dear John,
That's a great idea! Now where is my apron..................... :-)John
I've got the Aircap that Woodcraft sells and it's comfortable and effective. Kinda looks bizarre.
Yes - this I know. I can feel myself gagging as I walk into an area where I've been machining MDF the day before. Still the cartridge mask seems ok although it's a PITA to keep it on all the time - which, since the micro particles float around like, well, very small things happily enjoying Brownian movement - seems necessary. I'm seriously considering the air-cleaner route for the workshop, especially as it serves as the laundry and sundry storage, and also fairly keen on making this the last big MDF job. The same clients have a massive oak staircase 'just like the one in the Tower of LOndon' and a walnut library to do, so I would like to keep em happy.
I've found that MDF can hang in the air for days. By running the air cleaner I no longer have a fine coating of dust a day or so after working in the shop. It's cheaper than lungs, build the cost into your next project.John
I work in an Iron foundry and have used four different types of disposable masks....they are required all day long in the plant,
there are about 8 choices, but these are the ones I wear
Moldex 2730 is easy to to use and remove because it has only one continuous strap that you clip together
Moldex 2400 has a charcoal element to help remove fumes
3M 8212 which is adjustable and traps fumes and is also the biggest of these
3M 9211 is the most comfortable of all but is only for dust
and for the bad areas I have to wear a PAPR whose brand I don't recall since I try to avoid those areas........ironically the dust collection baghouses
The Safety Dept. is considering issuing a full or half mask cartridge type and eliminating all the disposables because of costs of approximately 400 masks a day, 2800 / week
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
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